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MacBeth Forum All-Star
Probably at the beach...
Joined: Jan 27 2005 Location: New York
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Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 10:41am | IP Logged
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With the rumors of a universal indult circulating far and wide, this will be an interesting poll. Hey, it's anonymous!
__________________ God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
MacBeth's Blog
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shartlesville Forum All-Star
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Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 11:18am | IP Logged
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I guess I should have put this here.
Pope to bring Latin Mass in from the cold.
Blessings,
Krisann
__________________ Krisann
DH Cris;
DC John, Elizabeth, Lilyann ^i^, Emily, Kate, Julia, Sam, & Jack;
DGC Kira, Auston, Travis, & Sarah.
My Blog: Isla del Esperanza
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Martha Forum All-Star
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Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 11:37am | IP Logged
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No. For the same reason I don't go to spanish or vietnames parishes. I prefer to actually understand what is being said at the mass. And not knowing latin does not make a person a less devout catholic.
I don't know that I would have converted to the Church if that first mass we attended was nothing more than gibberish to us. Being able to understand that mass was imperative to my conversion and my dh's amazing acceptance of this life.
I have nothing against parishes that want the TLM getting such granted, but I don't think it should be forced into parishes where the majority don't know latin and prefer a mass they can understand.
__________________ Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
Yes, they're all ours!
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Christine Forum All-Star
Joined: March 23 2006 Location: Washington
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Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 11:57am | IP Logged
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We received the following via e-mail yesterday (it is similar to what Krisann posted):
11-October-2006 -- Catholic World News Feature Story
POPE WILL BROADEN USE OF LATIN MASS
Vatican, Oct. 11 (CWNews.com) - Pope Benedict XVI is preparing to release a motu proprio extending permission for priests to celebrate the traditional Latin Mass, Vatican sources have confirmed.
The new papal document-- for which a publication date has not yet been set-- would give all priests permission to celebrate the Mass of St. Pius V. This permission, a "universal indult," would replace the existing indult that dates back to 1988, when Ecclesia Dei authorized use of the Tridentine rite until more restricted conditions, requiring the permission of the local bishop.
Pope Benedict has long favored moves to accommodate traditionalist Catholics, and to integrate the Tridentine rite into the regular liturgical life of the Church. The motu proprio that he has prepared-- which, according to informed sources, is now in final form-- addresses other liturgical questions as well as the issue of the traditional Mass.
Vatican sources say that the papal document affirms the principle that there is only one liturgical rite for the Latin Church. But this rite has two forms: the "ordinary" liturgy (the Novus Ordo, celebrated in the vernacular language) and the "extraordinary" (the Tridentine rite, in Latin). These two forms have equal rights, the text indicates, and bishops are strongly encouraged to allow free use of both forms.
Pope Benedict is reportedly waiting for the best moment to release the new document, which is currently circulating among Vatican dicasteries. Speculation in Rome is that the indult will be announced at the same time that the Pope releases his apostolic exhortation concluding the Synod on the Eucharist. That document is expected soon, perhaps in November.
There is significant opposition to the indult among Vatican officials, and the papal text has been the subject of serious debate and criticism. But Pope Benedict has made it clear-- notably in his meeting with the College of Cardinals in March-- that he will move forward with efforts to accommodate traditionalists.
In 1988, with his own motu proprio Ecclesia Dei, Pope John Paul II allowed the celebration of the old Mass in parish settings, provided that the local bishop gave his approval. The Ecclesia Dei commission was created to supervise implementation of that policy. Despite the urging of Pope John Paul for a "broad and generous" use of the indult, many bishops have been reluctant to allow the traditional Mass, or have severely restricted its use.
The papal document is likely to take the form of an apostolic letter, with the added status of a motu proprio-- a document that carries the force of canon law. The document has been reviewed by the Congregation for Divine Worship and by Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, the president of the Ecclesia Dei commission, as well as the Pope; it is now in at least its third draft.
__________________ Christine
Mommy to 4 girls, 5 boys, & 2 in God's care
Memories of a Catholic Wife and Mother
Pretty Lilla Rose
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Lisbet Forum All-Star
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Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 12:05pm | IP Logged
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The TLM is not the NO mass just in latin, it's more than just the vernacular that was changed.
My first mass was a TLM, I was not Catholic at the time, my husband was a cold Catholic. God works! :) Latin or English or Spanish or French. :)
__________________ Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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Kathryn UK Forum All-Star
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Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 12:09pm | IP Logged
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I'm a maybe . I have only been to a Tridentine rite Mass once and to be honest it didn't resonate with me - I prefer a Mass I can hear, in whatever language! However, I love the current Roman rite in Latin, and if it was available locally that would be my preference. I would also like to see more use of Latin chants in our regular parish Mass. My children hate having to go to Mass in any language they can't understand, Latin or otherwise.
__________________ Kathryn
Dh Michael, Rachel(3/95) Hannah(8/98) Naomi(6/06) (11/07)
The Bookworm
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Martha Forum All-Star
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Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 12:34pm | IP Logged
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Lisbet wrote:
The TLM is not the NO mass just in latin, it's more than just the vernacular that was changed.
My first mass was a TLM, I was not Catholic at the time, my husband was a cold Catholic. God works! :) Latin or English or Spanish or French. :) |
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I never said it was otherwise.
There are things I enjoy about the TLM, but the language used is a major issue.
__________________ Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
Yes, they're all ours!
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JennGM Forum Moderator
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Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 1:34pm | IP Logged
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I love Latin, and have had no problem following along and understanding where we are in the Latin Mass, but I like the Novus Ordo Mass in Latin, when it's done well. I have not enjoyed the Tridentine Rite Masses.
If only they would really do a good literal translation of the Latin Novus Ordo to the English I really think we wouldn't have some of the major problems we have now. It's so close to the Tridentine Rite...some places no difference!
__________________ Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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hylabrook1 Forum Moderator
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Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 1:36pm | IP Logged
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I'm not sure how to classify the Latin Masses I have been to, but they were whatever was the way it was done in most parishes before Vatican II (yes, I'm that old ) As young child, it just seemed sort of spooky to me ("et cum spiritu tuo" felt like maybe a ghost was about to make an entrance). Yes, now I know what that means, and I don't want to sound irreverent, nor do I feel irreverent. Maybe some of this is just the result of poor catechesis. But overall, as I am not fluent in Latin, I'm not sure how focused I would remain; it's like anytime you are present during a conversation or event in a language you don't understand -- you feel sort of separated from what is happening.
I know that it's not just a Mass in Latin (but maybe it *could* be). Again, I need to be educated to this - the differences among the various Masses or Mass styles (I don't even have the language to explain what I mean).
Maybe my ignorance of all of this is sad. I might attend if I knew enough to know that it would be meaningful to me, rather than just the idea that how can the celebration of the Eucharist NOT be meaningful?
Not sure how much sense this makes, but I guess it's not something I feel particularly drawn to.
Nancy
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Rachel May Forum All-Star
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Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 1:41pm | IP Logged
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This is a sort of weird thing, but I enjoy sitting in a foreign language mass on occasion because it makes me feel connected to the other members of the Universal Church.
At home in CA, sitting in Spanish mass with the farm workers really brought it home for me. I enjoy Latin less than Spanish, but I would probably attend a Latin mass sometimes to feel that connection and to dig into the "riches of the Church" as my old pastor used to say. I would love to have the best of both worlds. A reverent NO mass with some of the parts like the Gloria and the Creed (are these called the "ordinaries"?)in Latin would be perfect for me!
__________________ Rachel
Thomas and Anthony (10), Maria (8), Charles (6), Cecilia (5), James (3), and Joseph (1)
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cathhomeschool Board Moderator
Texas Bluebonnets
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Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 2:01pm | IP Logged
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I'm a maybe. I've never been to a Latin Mass. The closest church with one is more than an hour away. I would love to go at least once!
__________________ Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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Maddie Forum All-Star
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Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 2:12pm | IP Logged
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We drove an hour from home recently to hear a TLM as one is not offered nearby. It had been a good year since we've been to one. It was the Feast of the Transfiguration and it was sung. The tears were flowing and the words of the Gospel were, "...it is good to be here."
Yea Pope Benedict, we love you!!!
__________________ ~Maddie~
Wife to my dh and Momma of 9 dear ones
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lapazfarm Forum All-Star
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Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 2:16pm | IP Logged
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I'm a maybe. I know I would not want to go all the time because I don't know Latin at all and I like to understand what I am hearing. But I WOULD go once in awhile for kicks. I like new experiences and all. I actually think they do have a Latin Mass at our Parish occasionally (first fridays, maybe?) but I don't know what kind since I don't know the diference in a Latin NO and a Tridentine. Don't even know what a Tridentine Mass is, actually...Ah, the joys of living in the Baptist Bible belt!
__________________ Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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~Rachel~ Forum All-Star
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Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 2:38pm | IP Logged
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Well, since it is anonymous...
I voted yes. I admit it... I am a cradle Catholic who has never been to one... but the mass I grew up with was very traditional (I was shocked to find them less so over here in the USA than in the UK)... I miss the tradition. PLUS DS and I are learning Latin... including the prayers wht better way to practise?!!
__________________ ~Rachel~
Wife to William
Mum to James 13, Lenore 8
Lighting a Fire
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cvbmom Forum All-Star
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Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 2:43pm | IP Logged
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We have a local Latin Mass. Many homeschooling friends of mine have even changed to this particular parish due to their Latin Mass. Personally, it's too early Sunday morning for our family to be able to cope (5 dc under age 7). Dh and I would like to attend a few more times to be able to really follow along. When we have gone, we enjoyed it and find the prayers absolutely beautiful.
Christine
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Christine Forum All-Star
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Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 2:44pm | IP Logged
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Our Polish pastor says a Novus Ordo Latin Mass once a month. It is the most well-attended Mass. Both Polish and English parishioners attend. Usually, the Polish parishioners attend the Polish Mass and the American parishioners attend the English Mass (with some exceptions). The Latin seems to bring us all together.
I also remember a French professor, sharing that when she first left France, she went to England. She found that she felt at home by attending Mass each day (Tridentine Rite, prior to Vatican II). It was the only place that she knew what to expect and understood everything that was going on and being said.
__________________ Christine
Mommy to 4 girls, 5 boys, & 2 in God's care
Memories of a Catholic Wife and Mother
Pretty Lilla Rose
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mrsgranola Forum Pro
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Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 2:52pm | IP Logged
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I was in the "maybe" column. I want to go to the indult Latin Mass that is not far from me now but the timing is very bad for our family. I know many homeschooling families who go to it but it's just not be do-able for us yet.
JoAnna
__________________ Mom to Jacob, Grace, Mary, Lucas, Emma, Carrie and Gianna
Parente Adventures
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stefoodie Forum Moderator
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Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 4:13pm | IP Logged
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We're a definite yes. Though we wouldn't do it weekly. Once a month maybe.
__________________ stef
mom to five
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ALmom Forum All-Star
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Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 9:20pm | IP Logged
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Permission of a Universal Indult is no different than what happened when the Roman Rite was first established as the normative rite. Any rites that could show longer duration were allowed to continue side by side with the Roman. The Roman rite was established as normative because of some free lancing that was going on. Seems we've been through this before.
I would be very happy if this Universal Indult really does happen. I think it will do a lot to bring Catholics of good will together more and bring several friends of ours back to a Mass in obedience to the Pope. I know one fear is that the dedicated priests in the Novos Ordo will be left in the cold with those trying to push for a do your own thing Mass. I know we would not want to leave our pastors hanging - but we also have obligations to our children. I realize that any Mass is still a Mass and we have the sacrifice - our Lord present - we have trusted that our attempts to be obedient, faithful, prayerful (in the midst of chaos), etc. are acceptable sacrifices we have made and united with that one perfect Sacrafice. However, we are tired and my heart breaks as I see the ill effects of the experimentation. The disobedience so common in the Novos Ordo (at least where we are) has very real and damaging effects on our little ones. I will not disobey and attend a non-approved Mass no matter how beautifully it may be celebrated. However, if we had a Mass available and a parish that truely supported what we were trying to do, we'd be there - whether it was Novos Ordo or Tridentine.
My hope is that people do not start tinkering with the Tridentine. If Universal Permission is granted, do you then have priests willing, but not thouroughly trained, offering the Mass and thinking they have the same liberties with it that seem to be presumed for the Novos Ordo. We had a temporary indult for the Tridentine here and it was as bad as the Novos Ordo as far as irregularities (the priest invited the Luteran chaplain to give a homily and introduced the sign of peace into the middle (sign of peace is fine for the Novos Ordo - irregular for the Tridentine) - it began to look like a combination of Novos Ordo/Tridentine - but other than the innovations added in by the priest (a chaplain who was willing, not necessarily trained for the Tridentine), we followed the booklet for the old Missal. Our family never went back to that one and it faded though was advertised by Opus Dei for a while. My problem with the whole thing was the disobedience to rubrics - and that is still my problem. It causes very real harm to the faith of the people - and causes grave scandal to us all - but especially the little ones.
I would really love the option of a Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter parish. As I understand the permission, the Novos Ordo and Tridentine rites would exist side by side and people would chose whichever they preferred. Now, I do understand where Martha is coming from about language - as I don't know Latin though we are attempting to learn some, I get lost in the Tridentine (we've never had access to the High Mass with music but did have a brief exposure (about 2X) to Low Mass not just the odd version locally) and I very much like to understand what I am hearing - and my children were a bit more restless not being able to follow when they couldn't read. My husband was not yet Catholic and I had trouble trying to help everyone follow as it was also new to me. I was very, very distracted. My grandmother, a Baptist, began to attend Mass with my grandfather, a Catholic, once the Novos Ordo came into being (because she could understand what was being said)- and she was the best Catholic apologist though for some reason she never became Catholic. I really do appreciate some of the good and would love to see the Novos Ordo celebrated the way it was truely meant to be - with Latin still retaining primacy of place, with Gregorian chant, beautiful music and art, good translations, etc. For the vast majority of us this does not exist, and I doubt that it will until we have a means of voting with our feet and donations! Our family has been so worn down so long by the silliness that I will go anywhere that follows the mind of the church without innovation and without trying to reinterpret according to some goofy idea of what we need/want without asking us. If I could attend the Novos Ordo - without being subjected to inclusive language (every hymn is changed), every prayer/hymn that addresses sin is either glossed over or changed or dropped(we end up with funny songs instead of Psalms or with odd texts to "fit the music" and the Lamb of God has been changed to King of Kings and Lord of Lords have mercy on us (don't seem to like the word sin anymore) and if I knew that my children and I would not be subjected to cute plays (boomboxes and all) between the homily and gospel (at least we have a homily, some don't) and lengthy addresses at odd times - or being invited to clap for ....musicians, first communicants, graduates, etc. in the middle of Mass - to say nothing of "liturgical dance", glass chalices, tabernacles hidden, a priest that put his suitcase on the altar and cracked jokes with his extraordianary ministers after the consecration (that was a parish we visited in the midwest several years ago thinking we'd be OK since it had beautiful old statues and altar and tabernacle in the middle - I thought I would die and sure appreciated that we had it better than a lot of folks), DREs that will tell us that mortal sin no longer exists , and balloons decorating the altar for some sort of Mass for pentecost (we slipped out of that one and went down the road since we had time - drove 2 hours to a non parish after that ( Mass for religious order open to the public) while we decided what we were going to do for about 6 months). I just am tired, so having a Tridentine parish available does not mean we'd never be a part of a Novos Ordo parish - just depends on whether we really could improve things or be welcome and whether there were signs of significant improvement over time. We'd be willing to support and help pastors in the Novos Ordo - but we also need support. Currently we have no choice. Here, The Tridentine was requested and denied (perhaps due to no one qualified to offer it) and every parish in the diocese does many of the same irregular things - all seem to have the same liturgical planners, though some will take or get away with a few more liberties than others. We have had no choice for a long, long time. We can attend Mass at convents but these are not parishes and cannot offer first Sacraments to our children - plus any attempts they made to provide groups for our teens was squelched (supposedly because we should be in our parishes - but then the parishes don't offer anything but the same old worldliness brought into the parish and my dc were totally turned off). A parish family is important - but we have had many crosses to bear with ours. OOps - sorry, I guess I am ranting - trying to be patient. Sorry - I'm going to get off.
Janet
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momwise Forum All-Star
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Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 9:38pm | IP Logged
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I voted maybe, so here's my comment: I would go to any licit Roman rite Mass if my dh wanted to go to it. The dc and I go to a traditional NO Mass with a little Latin. There is a Latin Mass here weekly, about 45 min. away. And of course there are plenty of English Masses around with bad music and disobedient pastors. I don't think there is a true NO Mass in Latin here.
__________________ Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
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