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TryingMyBest
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| Posted: Feb 13 2014 at 9:34am | IP Logged
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I've been reading the excellent threads over on the WTM forums about Circe. There were some interesting discussions there a few years ago after Andrew Kern stopped by. One of the takeaways that participants had was to reduce the amount of historical fiction, especially if it was mediocre.
My daughter's too young for me to bought many historical fiction books but I've been building a library of books about the saints since my daughter loves them and I think they are the best way for littles to learn the faith but some of them are not very good. I don't want my daughter exposed to mediocre literature but I do want her exposed to those stories.
Does the subject matter (in this case wholesome, encouraging storie about the saints) overcome the mediocre literature when determining whether a book is twaddle?
Or am I overthinking this?
Jenn
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4 lads mom
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| Posted: Feb 13 2014 at 10:36am | IP Logged
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You aren’t over thinking this.....I feel the same way at times. I have read a few saint stories and the writing is so annoying that it’s a distraction for me, or I feel it is a bit saccharine to be “for real.” I feel guilty saying that....
I listened to a podcast of Andrew Kern’s in which he brought up many of the same points, I wonder if it is the same one you are referring to....that often stories are screaming the “moral” so loud, and we hold our breath waiting for the child to show that indeed he “gets it.” If he doesn’t verbalize his complete understanding, then we are jumping in to “fill in the dots” for him. It’s been a while since I’ve listened to it, but if I remember correctly, it is sort of the same line of thinking as some of the Catechesis of the Good Shepherd: present great materials and let the child develop his relationship with the help of the Holy Spirit and make it his own relationship.
Does that at all go along with what you were originally thinking? 
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TryingMyBest
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I haven't listened to the podcast yet but I that's what everyone seemed to be discussing on the WTM forums. I'm still making my way through the thread though.
I don't mind the saccharine since I have a real soft spot for vintage things and some of those books are saccharine. I love the 1940's and 1950's books. What I hate most is modern affectations. I won't give an example of a book I didn't like since I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but one of our books says "the girl was set" about a saint from the middle ages who has many beautiful dresses. I cringe every time I read that. I don't even want my daughter to talk like that. (I know I'm being overly picky here)
I thnk you can do away with twaddy books that beat kids over the head with morals and virtue since those things can be learned through good literature. But the only way to learn about the saints is to read about them. I want the saints to be heros to my daughter; role models, etc. Children need to know them by name and know their stories.
Jenn
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JennGM
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I agree that I don't want over-moralizing. The dots need to be connected by our children, not everything spelled out.
I'm very picky about saint stories. Some of my priorities:
For younger children I prefer stories that make a saint human and loving God above all things, with less emphasis on being so saintly before they turned three. "Plaster saints" is the term used--making the saint's life so pious and lofty that there is no room for human faults or inspiration for imitation for children. They become like statues to worship instead of our brothers and sisters who can help us on our journey.
I also want to de-emphasize the legends and wonder stories, unless they are counter balanced with reality. There is nothing wrong with a few miracle tales, but within reason. I also do not want stories that give a sense that the "power" is on a natural level or performed by the person themselves. I started to reduce some of the picture books when I found the stories were too fictitious and required more reading and discussion to give a counterbalance.
I also look for well-written biographies. Some modern books have simplified or dumbed down language which is rather insulting to a child. But not all biographies need to have non-fiction to flesh out the saint. A short summary of facts is sufficient sometimes.
Also some details don't need to be so graphic and spelled out. An example would be the story of Maria Goretti in the 57 saints book. Earlier versions talked about preserving her purity and sins against purity, but the modern version uses the words pornography and sex.
And lastly (at this sitting), illustrations are important. I love having artistic masterpieces when I can for the saints. I dislike real cartoony illustrations.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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JennGM
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I think there is a mixed bag for both modern and vintage books. There are some older books I do not like.
I'm not into saccharine, so I skip the Windeatt biographies, even though they are older. There are modern ones I love, such as the new ones printed by Magnificat.
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guitarnan
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I like well-written saint books/stories, too. Even the youngest children can tell the difference between good writing and poor writing once they've heard enough beautifully-written stories.
I still read (used to pre-read, now I co-read) the books my daughter reads - she's 16! - and try to show her how to guard against reading inappropriate books. (She actually rejected the Hunger Games books half way through the first one because she disliked the writing style. Interesting.)
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4 lads mom
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| Posted: Feb 13 2014 at 11:05am | IP Logged
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TryingMyBest wrote:
I don't mind the saccharine since I have a real soft spot for vintage things and some of those books are saccharine. I love the 1940's and 1950's books. What I hate most is modern affectations.
Jenn
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Ditto all of this! I love vintage, and I would definitely go saccharine over modern with “oh so cool” interjections. Blah!!
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TryingMyBest
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| Posted: Feb 13 2014 at 11:11am | IP Logged
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I feel a little guilty about bringing this up since I know that if we don't buy these books there will not be a market for them and there will less saints books available. I doubt anyone is making money off of these books and I feel somewhat of an obligation to support their mission. It's not like one of those dreadful Disney movie books (I'll admit we have a few of those here) whose purpose is sell more Disney products to my daughter.
Jenn
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4 lads mom
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| Posted: Feb 13 2014 at 11:22am | IP Logged
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What I really want is thoughtful......saint books that aren’t condescending to my children’s sensibilities. Has anyone read Bernadette: The Little Girl From Lourdes.
I loved the illustrations, gentle watercolors....the only thing that bugged me for some reason was, in conversation with her mother, the author had Bernadette addressing her mother as “Mom.” I don’t know, it sounded a bit more informal than what I would have expected....
The content was nice for the younger ages, well done.
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knowloveserve
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4 lads mom wrote:
What I really want is thoughtful......saint books that aren’t condescending to my children’s sensibilities. Has anyone read Bernadette: The Little Girl From Lourdes.
I loved the illustrations, gentle watercolors....the only thing that bugged me for some reason was, in conversation with her mother, the author had Bernadette addressing her mother as “Mom.” I don’t know, it sounded a bit more informal than what I would have expected....
The content was nice for the younger ages, well done. |
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I disagree with this guilt.
I think necessity is the mother of invention and there is a revival in young, creative thinkers out there who love and want to spread the faith. When people start to notice that you can't just make a buck from slapping together some morals with digital cartoons, they'll go back to the drawing board... or at least step out of the way for others who have a more innovative and thoughtful approach.
There are a million different Protestant Bible story books and picture hook series out there. 99% of them are twaddle as far as I'm concerned! because the "story" is degraded to crummy writing and the illustrations are cartoon garbage. (This is why you'll find so many of these books at thrift stores!)
I just don't buy the idea that we are obligated to support inferior products. There is a need for good, beautiful and true saint stories... God willing it will be filled. But we don't need to keep creating a market for mediocrity, or worse.
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Feb 13 2014 at 12:24pm | IP Logged
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TryinigMyBest wrote:
| Or am I overthinking this? |
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No way! Great thread, Jenn!
Just jumping in to say that I'm picky with my books - from board books to novels. I keep the best of the best. Most of the reasons are obvious, but since we don't have a great library system and our home library is what we go to for reading, my shelf real estate is VALUABLE!! If it's not the cream of the crop in terms of prose and ESPECIALLY illustrations, I don't keep it. No guilt involved for me.
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SallyT
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| Posted: Feb 17 2014 at 9:06am | IP Logged
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Same here, Ellie, JennGM, Jen, et al. I don't think one needs to feel guilty about not wanting to buy mediocre or twaddly books. Poor literature, even if it's about good subjects, does -- well, not *nothing,* but an impoverished little -- to build culture, and I think that's what we're looking for: a sense of a living, breathing, *thinking* Catholic culture that values beauty, art, and good literature as its patrimony. While I certainly think it's possible to be too much a tastemaker/snob, at the same time I wonder why our literary/artistic standards should evaporate simply because the subject is religious.
I think my list of standards would look a lot like JennGM's, though I might disagree a little about the wonder stories. And I agree with 4LM that what I *don't* want is condescension to my children' sensibilities, which are immature but not babyish, and weren't even when they were a lot younger.
I'm often frustrated by this very thing -- our parish is blessed with a very nice children's library, full of saint's stories and Catholic literature (a good many Bethlehem Books, even!), but I so often come away discouraged, having not really found something good for my kids to read. And I do often wonder why saint books aren't better than they are, for the younger set. I do like Louis de Wohl for high school. But until then . . . the pickings often look simultaneously so rich and so meager.
And I'm also a sucker for things like vintage holy cards and a *certain* level of what people might call "kitsch," so it's not that my taste is all that high and refined!
Sally
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hmbress
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I'd love to hear more discussion on the handling of wonder stories. Even in adult books on saints these things challenge me. I'm reading Sigrid Undset's Catherine of Siena, and for me, when I read of her going without food and sleep, levitating, the Host flying from the priest's hand to her mouth, etc. it makes it hard for me to relate or focus on how I could follow her example.
What are others' thoughts?
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JennGM
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hmbress wrote:
I'd love to hear more discussion on the handling of wonder stories. Even in adult books on saints these things challenge me. I'm reading Sigrid Undset's Catherine of Siena, and for me, when I read of her going without food and sleep, levitating, the Host flying from the priest's hand to her mouth, etc. it makes it hard for me to relate or focus on how I could follow her example.
What are others' thoughts? |
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It is hard for me, too. It's those saints' lives that makes me feel so far away from becoming a saint that sometimes I get discouraged. It's those biographies that I feel less inspired to imitate, but more just inspired or in awe of how holy a saint can be and how much God blesses them.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Twaddle Saints Books?
