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JennGM Forum Moderator
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Posted: April 20 2006 at 10:36am | IP Logged
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This Gospel of Judas is now everywhere in the headlines. I would like to hear some intelligent Catholic responses to this new find. I had to do a little research for my bil and sister, but I still haven't presented a complete answer in response.
One of the questions raised is could these newly found Gospels be added to our Bible? Will our Bible change?
And some of the discussions praise Gnosticism as a viable part of our Christian faith. So my approach has been showing how the Canon of the New Testament was formed and what is Gnosticism and how it's a condemned heresy.
National Geographic has a feature article in this month's issue. I nearly threw it against a wall! It twisted the faith so much!
Sermon of Good Friday 2006 in St. Peter’s Basilica By the Papal Household Preacher Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa from the Vatican is tremendous. Did anyone watch? Dh was raving, so I had to search to find the text. He opens up responding to these "new finds" and Dan Brown's book and movie.
But he talks about the historical argument. NG quotes a scholar saying that this work isn't historical, but helps understand early Christian beliefs, like we've found some missing pieces and now can really expand our faith to the fullest!
These entries from Catholic Encyclopedia
Gnosticism. It's long...some interesting points: Gnostic literature, therefore, possesses little or no intrinsic value, however great its value for history and psychology. It is of unparalleled importance in the study of the surroundings in which Christianity first arose....
Gnosticism died not by chance, but because it lacked vital power within itself; and no amount of theosophistic literature, flooding English and German markets, can give life to that which perished from intrinsic and essential defects. ....Both Hegesippus and Irenaeus proved that Gnostic doctrines did not belong to that deposit of faith which was taught by the true succession of bishops in the primary sees of Christendom; both in triumphant conclusion drew up a list of the Bishops of Rome, from Peter to the Roman bishop of their day; as Gnosticism was not taught by that Church with which the Christians everywhere must agree, it stood self-condemned. Canon of the New Testament
I have this excellent book An Outline History of The Church by Centuries (from St. Peter to Pius XII) by Joseph McSorley (c. 1943) that explains Gnosticism simply:The Apostolic Age:
Christianity soon came into contact with Gnosticism--a movement active in many paces and in various forms. Most of the Gnostics taught that perfect faith and full spiritual power were privileges of the "Initiated" who possessed finer intellects and better education than the multitude. They also made a distinction between the Supreme God and the lesser being who created the material universe--a doctrine which tended to foster fanatical and even immortal theories about matter and the body.
Some Gnostic groups composed apocryphal gospels, borrowed the Christian vocabulary, claimed their own "esoteric" revelation, and circulated a very distorted form of Christianity over an alarmingly wide area....
Heresies: Gnosticism From Samaria and Syria Gnosticism spread into Egypt, where its leading representatives were Valentinus, Basilides and Carpocrates. Valentinus, most popular of all heretical teachers in his day, went to Rome in the last quarter of the century and was attacked by St. Irenaeus; and another conspicuous Gnostic, Marcion, was refuted by Tertullian. A significant event was the conversion to Gnosticism of the distinguished Christian apologist, Tatian.
Among the elements common to the different Gnostic systems were these two doctrines: (1) That the Incarnation was merely a temporary union between a divine being and a human person (or even that Jesus was a phantom, not a real man--Docetism); (2) That the soul is in essential antagonism with the body, which it must attempt to annihilate and for which it has not responsibility--a theory highly encouraging to fanaticism and immorality.
The Gnostics supported their theories both by claiming the possession of secret traditions which preserved the Christian revelation in its purity and also by writing numerous books, some of which were widely circulated apocryphal gospels. The Gnostic writings evoked a number of replies--for example, from St. Justin, Hegesippus, St. Irenaeus, St. Hippolytus.
__________________ Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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MaryM Board Moderator
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Posted: April 20 2006 at 11:18am | IP Logged
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When it first had all the publicity a couple weeks ago, I did a little searching as well in order to knowledgeably discuss this if it came up. The one thing that struck me was a realization that is is nothing more than the annual (around Easter time) attack on Christianity by the secular culture/media. A lot of apologetics experts pointed that out. Think about the timing and recent history. Cal Thomas has an interesting article.
And add to this a big upcoming event. Someone (I believe on Catholic answers forums) put it well - this is all about May 19, 2006!...... The day The Da Vinci Code opens in theaters. It is an opportunity to capitalize on the hype of gnosticism.
Some good Catholic responses:
Zenit had a good response from Fr. Thomas Williams.
As does Catholic Exchange with Mary Kochan.
Jimmy Akin and Akin's blog here has a great comment added (1st one) that I found very humorous and insightful - an analogy of a "future archeological finding."
And also Amy Wellborn with links to other good resources.
__________________ Mary M. in Denver
Our Domestic Church
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JennGM Forum Moderator
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Posted: April 20 2006 at 1:26pm | IP Logged
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Thanks, Mary. Thorough as usual. I forget to look at these places.
I love Cal Thomas...I listen to his commentaries on our local radio station and always find myself nodding in agreement.
__________________ Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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momwise Forum All-Star
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Posted: April 20 2006 at 1:44pm | IP Logged
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MaryM wrote:
The one thing that struck me was a realization that is is nothing more than the annual (around Easter time) attack on Christianity by the secular culture/media. A lot of apologetics experts pointed that out. |
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That would explain the excuse for the 2 university professor that were either on Nightline or NPR before Easter. These so-called experts were pontificating (oh, isn't that ironic?) about the spiritual superiority of the Gnostics; they explained in patient tones that the early Christians were given basic knowledge and ideas and the Gnostics were so spiritually advanced they were given "mystical" information not understood by the "simple Christians." I think this is part of the attraction to these new, breakthrough dicoveries (they're really the same old stuff recycled over and over) for those in academia and the press.
Of course this is the same Gnostic heresy that rears it's head era after era, when "intellegent people" (i.e.pharisees) want to have some knowledge that places them above everyone else.
And when the woman on NPR was asked by a caller how the books of the Bible were picked she alluded to Eusibius or Eustace(which was the person who made up the list of worthy books for the Council?)by calling him "One guy in the Church," and giving an answer simple enough for a 2nd grader...in fact she forgot to mention the Council.
Anyway, it all goes to show that you're right Mary, it's part of the ongoing effort to discredit Easter, the Ressurection, Holy Week, etc. and this year I didn't let it bother my peace
__________________ Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
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JennGM Forum Moderator
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Posted: April 20 2006 at 1:59pm | IP Logged
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momwise wrote:
Anyway, it all goes to show that you're right Mary, it's part of the ongoing effort to discredit Easter, the Ressurection, Holy Week, etc. and this year I didn't let it bother my peace |
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Me, neither. I actually like stories like this to help me sift through what the Church really teaches and come up with answers. Dh and I love to sort it all out!
I read the article in our diocesan paper from CNS reporting the Gospel of Judas. It quoted some theologian who said (I paraphrase b/c I can't find the original) that we can't expect that the Gospel of Judas and other gospels by the Evangelists to be actually written by the person whose name it bears. She's right about the first part, Judas didn't write it, but WHY, oh WHY can't the Catholics report real Catholicism?
__________________ Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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stefoodie Forum Moderator
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Posted: April 20 2006 at 2:12pm | IP Logged
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a cyber-friend and fellow food blogger (and I don't know if he's Catholic but i'm pretty sure he's Christian) posted on his food blog on Easter Monday(!) about the Judas Gospel, etc. just to use it as an opening for his post which was actually about Easter eggs. I couldn't resist and commented (nicely) on his blog, but it's careless comments like this that really saddens and infuriates me. this guy gets 1000+ people a day visiting his blog, he writes a comment about the Judas Gospel and then he leaves it hanging saying "I don't want serious discussion". (mostly Filipinos, and we have always been known to be predominantly Catholic, but now people are leaving the Church in spades, and people wonder why!) i am not knowledgeable about gnosticism myself so i left a simple answer (about how we need to look at the Bible with the eye of faith, and that if we believe God can and did divinely inspire the hagiographers then we can also trust and believe that He wouldn't have left out any important details if He really wanted it in the Bible!).
__________________ stef
mom to five
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Jen L. Forum All-Star
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Posted: April 20 2006 at 9:32pm | IP Logged
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Here's the Gospel of Skip and Muffy over at the Ignatius Insight blog....
__________________ Jen
dh Klete,ds (8/95),dd (12/97), dd (11/00), and ^2^ in heaven
"...the best state in which to glorify God is our actual state; the best grace is that of the moment..." St. Peter Eymard
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saintanneshs Forum All-Star
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Posted: April 24 2006 at 2:03pm | IP Logged
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Jenn,
Just thought I'd share a laugh (since everyone else responded seriously )...Father Riley had a field-day with The Gospel of Judas (and also The Divinci Code and Gospel of Thomas) yesterday at mass. His words were, and I quote, "When you're from Texas and you step in a cow patty, you don't have to taste it to know where it came from."
__________________ Kristine
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JennGM Forum Moderator
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Posted: April 24 2006 at 2:27pm | IP Logged
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saintanneshs wrote:
Jenn,
Just thought I'd share a laugh (since everyone else responded seriously )...Father Riley had a field-day with The Gospel of Judas (and also The Divinci Code and Gospel of Thomas) yesterday at mass. His words were, and I quote, "When you're from Texas and you step in a cow patty, you don't have to taste it to know where it came from." |
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Wish I had been there! I love it!
I've been thinking about these Gnostics. I reread the above mentioned sermon and these two paragraphs stood out to me (particularly in light of all our altar girl and feminine discussions): If, according to The Gospel of Judas, of which there has been much talk in recent days, Jesus himself orders the apostle to betray him, it is because, by dying, the divine spirit which was in him would finally be able liberate itself from involvement of the flesh and re-ascend to heaven. Marriage oriented to births is to be avoided; woman will be saved only if the “feminine principle” (thelus) personified by her, is transformed into the masculine principle, that is, if she ceases to be woman. The Catholic Encyclopedia mentions "Gnosticism died not by chance, but because it lacked vital power within itself" can be applied in another sense. If followers were not allowed to procreate, then they of course the Gnostics would have died out!
__________________ Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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Jen L. Forum All-Star
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Posted: April 24 2006 at 3:45pm | IP Logged
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saintanneshs wrote:
Just thought I'd share a laugh (since everyone else responded seriously )... |
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Actually the "Gospel of Skip and Muffy" was not meant to be serious -- it made me laugh anyway (but not as much as your cow patty comment,Kristine!)
__________________ Jen
dh Klete,ds (8/95),dd (12/97), dd (11/00), and ^2^ in heaven
"...the best state in which to glorify God is our actual state; the best grace is that of the moment..." St. Peter Eymard
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abcmommy Forum All-Star
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Posted: April 24 2006 at 6:19pm | IP Logged
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Our priest addressed this issue (Judas and da Vinci, actually all in one) in our weekly bulletin. He pointed out that all this really shows is that people are perpetually seeking, and that even people who identify as christians arent investigating/ living their faith deeply- he said this lack of serious interest in discovering the true spirituality of their christianity leads people to seek such extreme and divergant false spirituality/ religion.
I thought that was pretty good.
of course I am paraphrasing and undoubtedly butched his point with my typically incompetant writing style.
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Angie Mc Board Moderator
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Posted: April 25 2006 at 10:51am | IP Logged
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Hey Jenn,
I look forward to reading all the thorough information here when I have a few minutes later today. For now, I want to offer how I have approached this topic in general.
A little history first...as an unformed Catholic about 10 years ago, I was offered a copy of the Gospel of Thomas to read. At the time I identified myself as a Catholic but wasn't living it and definitely couldn't defend it . That particular "gospel" made Jesus out to be a vegetarian hippy if I recall correctly. I walked away from the first few pages unsatisfied and with a gut feeling that this Jesus isn't Jesus. This was one more piece of the puzzle that LEAD me to the Church. I pray that this is the outcome for ALL who encounter these superficial falsehoods.
There are SO many angles where these "gospels" go wrong that we can fumble upon ourselves with too much great information. I go for the Right Authority argument first. This way, I avoid the chaos of all the other stuff flying around like "Did Judas really write this? See how much he liked women! Not eating meat is a good thing." etc. Simply, who has the authority to represent the Church? We believe that Jesus built his Church on the rock of Peter and gave him the keys to it. As in any group (from a family to a country to a business,) practical decisions need to be made about how the group will function and present itself to the world. Those with authority within the early Church made these decisions. The New Testament is a collection of what they knew (from knowing Jesus, from their experiences together, and through divine guidance,) to rightly represent Jesus and His Church.
From here, the questioner either agrees (Oh if only it was THAT easy) or they go for arguments against Right Authority, with the general argument being one of "no one had authority. Have THEM prove it. The more common argument actually lends itself to Right Authority, just one that went wrong through conspiracy. It goes, the early Church Fathers conspired for power and control instead of wanting to represent the Truth. Well, that one is easy enough because all the early Church knew that they would not receive power and control. They would, and did, receive physical torture and death. Why would they do that for a lie?
I also start all this off with an "I can see where you would be interested in this." Or, "I can see how this would be confusing." I admit that I got tripped up by one of these years ago. I also like to be very emotionally detached and just put the facts out there. I especially like to honestly smile and say how much I LOVE my Church and when I accepted her authority, everything else fell into place, intellectually and emotionally.
If I have been unclear here, please let me know. I like the challenge of being clear about this topic.
Hang in there, friends! This is a GOLDEN opportunity for loving evangelization.
Love,
__________________ Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
About Me
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saintanneshs Forum All-Star
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Posted: April 25 2006 at 1:45pm | IP Logged
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JennGM wrote:
I read the article in our diocesan paper from CNS reporting the Gospel of Judas. It quoted some theologian who said (I paraphrase b/c I can't find the original) that we can't expect that the Gospel of Judas and other gospels by the Evangelists to be actually written by the person whose name it bears. She's right about the first part, Judas didn't write it, but WHY, oh WHY can't the Catholics report real Catholicism? |
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Okay, after re-reading this thread more carefully, I'm wondering why this is the second time in a month that I've stumbled upon Catholics saying that the authors of the gospels are not the evangelists who are named. (The other instance was when, in researching one of the bible search threads on this board, I read that the inside of one of the Catholic children's bibles clearly stated that the authors of the gospels aren't those named in the bible...Who else read that thread?)
I've never heard this before in my life... Anyone know where I can read more about this? My sister is having a terrible time refuting her m-i-l's arguments against Catholicism AND Christianity, in general We're both getting really tired of her attacks and I'd like to know where to find the Church's teachings on this.
__________________ Kristine
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saintanneshs Forum All-Star
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Posted: April 25 2006 at 1:53pm | IP Logged
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Jen L. wrote:
Actually the "Gospel of Skip and Muffy" was not meant to be serious -- it made me laugh anyway (but not as much as your cow patty comment,Kristine!) |
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I did get that your post wasn't meant to be serious ...I should have written, "Since everyone else besides Jen L. and I responded seriously..."
__________________ Kristine
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