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Pamin OZ
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Hi,
I'm not a Catholic but I'm trying to wrap my head around what Catholicism is from a Catholic point of view, rather than just accepting what I've been taught as a Protestant for years.
I found this explanation of what Reformed Protestants believe is the order of what happens as we are "saved". Would anyone be able to tell me where, if anywhere, Catholics would differ and why?
I'd really appreciate this and I'm not trying to be controversial!
This is what it says:
A man is walking down the road to hell.
1. He is effectually called.
2. He is converted by faith and repentance.
3. He is instantly justified and adopted.
4. He is gradually sanctified throughout his life.
5. He dies.
6. His soul goes to heaven.
7. His body enters the grave.
8. At the resurrection of the last day, his body and soul reunite and he enters
9. Glory
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Angie Mc
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Pam, I'm rushing out the door but wanted to thank you for posting! I look forward to reading the responses of this knowledgable gathering  .
Love,
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MicheleQ
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Reformed Protestants as in Calvinists? I am trying to understand because it makes a difference comparison wise. My sister is a Calvinist. Our beliefs on salvation are very different but for someone who is Protestant but not Calvinist it's not nearly as much of a difference.
The list you gave leaves a lot of questions. For example what happens between 4 and 5 when he sins? Most reformed Protestants would say that sin cannot take away our salvation but that would be a big difference because as Catholics we know that choosing [mortal] sin does indeed cut us off and can send us to Hell if we don't repent.
Also #1. Are all called? We would say yes but someone who holds to Calvinistic principles would say no, that there is limited atonement. We believe that is a heresy.
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CrunchyMom
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Yes, what Michelle says.
Lutherans would have a very different idea of the model of salvation than Calvinists would. While Lutherans are adamant that Catholics are wrong about faith and works, both Catholics and Lutherans would agree that one can lose their salvation should they choose to turn their back on God.
I'm not sure that the difference lies so much in the order of the acts you named, but rather in the definitions and nature of those things.
For a Catholic, 1. might be "Everyone is effectually called."
Also, Catholics believe that the sacraments actually confer grace. So, in essence, baptism is something that happens to you, not something that you "do."
Therefore, where a Calvinist leaning Protestant links an act of the will to your number 3 and number 4 is viewed more passively, a Catholic might see number 3 as passive (as in an infant being baptized and washed clean of original sin) and number 4, sanctification, as more closely linked to acts of the will as one "works out their salvation with fear and trembling" as Paul says.
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CrunchyMom
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One more thought, a Catholic tends to see number 2 as "recurring" perhaps?
One is taught to constantly seek conversion to the will of God, and a key part of that is the sacrament of reconciliation (confession) where one is invited to repent over and over and over again when their will (and action) is in conflict with the Father's.
My pastor tells the story of an elderly nun he used to visit at a convent where he grew up in Philly. She would always say to him upon his leaving her, "pray for my conversion." It baffled him for years before he finally understood that we are to constantly seek conversion of our hearts from the world to God. And even nuns who have devoted their lives to prayer struggle with it!
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Pamin OZ
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Yes, Calvinist would be correct.
And yes, the definition of words would be important, too.
What about "grace", though it's not mentioned above?
Thanks, I shall print all this off and discuss it with Leonie W when I see her.
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Angie Mc
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Pamin OZ wrote:
| Thanks, I shall print all this off and discuss it with Leonie W when I see her. |
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Ooooooooo, give Leonie a hug from me!
Now back to the discussion  .
Love,
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Oh we have lots to say about grace!
Quote:
CCC 1996
Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.
1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.
1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.
1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:
Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.
2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.
2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"
Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.
2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:
If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.
2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit." Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.
2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:
Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.
However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits" - reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God's grace, she replied: 'If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.'" |
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CrunchyMom
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One short an sweet summary I've often heard of the Catholic view of grace is, "Its ALL grace."
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Pamin OZ
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Lindsay,
Calvinists would agree with you there about grace.
Thanks everyone. Keep posting if you think of anything. I will be printing it all out to read.
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albeto
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Pamin OZ wrote:
Hi,
I'm not a Catholic but I'm trying to wrap my head around what Catholicism is from a Catholic point of view, rather than just accepting what I've been taught as a Protestant for years.
I found this explanation of what Reformed Protestants believe is the order of what happens as we are "saved". Would anyone be able to tell me where, if anywhere, Catholics would differ and why?
I'd really appreciate this and I'm not trying to be controversial! |
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Hi. I'm not here often but this looks like a fun thread so I thought I'd play, too. Not with the purpose of being controversial, only to add my comments, if you don't mind.
Pamin OZ wrote:
This is what it says:
A man is walking down the road to hell. |
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Personally, I think this is simplistic and I think that I fall on the more liberal side of Catholic theology here, but I don't think of it as walking down the road to hell so much as living life torn between loving self and loving others. Both are natural, but one is easier and quicker to achieve. We have a ten dollar word for this, concupiscence.
Pamin OZ wrote:
| 1. He is effectually called. |
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Called in what way? To know God? To love others? I think this is natural. St. Paul talks about the Law written on our hearts. If by "the Law" he meant the Laws of Moses, the written word, the Living Word/Presence/Essence of God (which I understand he did), and that's "written on our hearts," then that means it's natural to know God. It's natural to know Love and Good and Peace and Joy. Besides, we are created "in his image" which many Catholics take to mean we are created to know Good from Evil, God from Lack of God, and so in that way, we are "called," we are "equipped" to know Him. We believe the Church was created to preserve and defend and evangelize the faith of Jesus the Christ, but we also believe that God is not limited to reaching humanity from within the walls of His Church only.
Pamin OZ wrote:
| 2. He is converted by faith and repentance. |
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I think the main difference you might find here is the idea of conversion being somehow "enough" at some point to render salvation. Catholics believe "conversion" as "sanctification" and this is a life-long commitment and privilege and responsibility.
Pamin OZ wrote:
| 3. He is instantly justified and adopted. |
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Here again there are many differences theologically. The idea that salvation is granted immediately upon a true conversion is considered a heresy in the Church simply because it goes against known teaching. It has been the understanding since the very beginning (and written evidence as well as traditions support this) and has been taught by the bishops of the Church since the very first days. Not only do we have records to show this historically, it's theologically sound as well.
If we understand Grace (the presence of God, if you will) and it's function in our lives, then we understand with out this grace, without this presence, we are ill equipped for divine union. We are not made "just" or "right"/"righteous" until we satisfy Divine Justice (that is to say, "perfect"). Unless one dies in the state of perfect sanctification or righteousness (no lack of God in their soul, no self-love, no attachments to the things of this world be it material, emotional, or spiritual), one is understood to need a final purgation of these self-devoted attachments to become just. To become right with God, we cannot have competing affections. We call this final purgation, purgatory. This has been understood since before the days Christ walked the earth and the very scriptures that mention praying for the dead are the very scriptures Jesus quotes from so we can know this is an ancient theological belief.
Pamin OZ wrote:
| 4. He is gradually sanctified throughout his life. |
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The difference here is that this man's sanctification ends at death. The state of his soul is then declared to be clean and without blemish, but if it is merely a declaration, then the soul is not in fact clean. Divine union (heaven) would be a matter of breaking the rules. Why make such rules in the first place if there is no intent to keep them? If what God declares becomes real, and the man's soul is in fact clean, no self-love, no affection to anything that is an obstacle to God, then his free will has been rendered null and void. He made the choice only once to believe Jesus died for his sins and sanctification from then on was for his convenience since he would not have had any other need to pursue a religious discipline, desire only would have driven him. Which is to say, those attachments to which he found himself bonded in life were ultimately either ignored (declared clean) or miraculously disappeared (made clean). But he did not make the choice to deny all things but God. They were denied for him.
On this we can completely agree. ;)
Pamin OZ wrote:
| 6. His soul goes to heaven. |
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Catholics believe those who have no grace, no presence of God in their soul, these are the ones separated from God, by their choice, for eternity. We believe this can happen even to those who believe in Jesus as the Christ, Lord and Savior. We also believe it is possible for non Christians to have God's saving grace in their souls as we believe God is not limited to the rituals of His Church to reach out and touch man. He is, after all, quite obsessed with loving us and created us to receive that love and even to share it just for the sake of sharing.
Pamin OZ wrote:
| 7. His body enters the grave. |
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Sure.
Pamin OZ wrote:
8. At the resurrection of the last day, his body and soul reunite and he enters
9. Glory
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Something like that. I'm really not familiar with how this all works out. It makes my head spin a bit, but I know a website that can explain it from a Catholic point of view: http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/two_judgments.htm
And here's something from the late Pope John Paul II regarding Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory: http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2heavn.htm
Does this help? Is this what you're looking for? I hope I don't come across as "correcting" but only as explaining my understanding of Catholic theology. There is a lot of wiggle room for personal beliefs within the Church, but ultimately, there are certain concepts we believe to be known truths and so if I've strayed across that boundary, someone else will show where and correct my misunderstanding.
Thanks for letting me play. :)
ETA: I don't know how to make a link pretty and blue and convenient, like. Can someone share that with me?
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JodieLyn
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Small interuption in this lovely conversation...
Albeto.. if you go here and scroll down just a couple of posts you'll find the info on how to link.
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Pamin OZ
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Albeto, that was very helpful.
So what does the death of Jesus achieve then?
Pam
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Willa
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Pamin OZ wrote:
Albeto, that was very helpful.
So what does the death of Jesus achieve then?
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Not trying to speak for Albeto, but the basic answer is "everything." Without Jesus and His salvific death there is no calling, no faith and repentance, no justification, no filial adoption, no resurrection or glory.
Just guessing here, but perhaps Albeto's discussion of the "natural" elements of faith and knowledge of God led to your question? Having "the Law written on our hearts" does not imply that we can take one single step towards heaven without grace. It merely makes us responsible and culpable. Our God-given human reason can lead us to distinguish between good and evil and to know the existence of God, though not without confusion and error. And again, not one single step towards God can be taken by man of his own human power.
Also, a short clarification of "God is not limited to reaching humanity from within the walls of His Church only". This statement, to Catholics, would mean that God is not limited by what He has set up for humans as the norm. It is an expression of God's power to go outside normal circumstances... as with the Good Thief on the cross. But NOT saying in any way that Jesus's death is superfluous; it is this part of the Divine Plan that makes everything else possible.
Some Catechism quotes in reference to your question -- :
Quote:
The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of "the righteous one, my Servant" as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin.
Citing a confession of faith that he himself had "received", St. Paul professes that "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures."
In particular Jesus' redemptive death fulfills Isaiah's prophecy of the suffering Servant.
Indeed Jesus himself explained the meaning of his life and death in the light of God's suffering Servant. After his Resurrection he gave this interpretation of the Scriptures to the disciples at Emmaus, and then to the apostles.
602 Consequently, St. Peter can formulate the apostolic faith in the divine plan of salvation in this way: "You were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers. . . with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake."
Man's sins, following on original sin, are punishable by death. By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God "made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
603 Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned. But in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God "did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all", so that we might be "reconciled to God by the death of his Son".
604 By giving up his own Son for our sins, God manifests that his plan for us is one of benevolent love, prior to any merit on our part: "In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins." God "shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us."
At the end of the parable of the lost sheep Jesus recalled that God's love excludes no one: "So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."
He affirms that he came "to give his life as a ransom for many"; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us.
The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: "There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer." Jesus Died Crucified |
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Also, this article by James Akin helped me a few years ago when I was trying to understand the differences between Calvinist and Catholic views of doctrine.
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albeto
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Pamin OZ wrote:
Albeto, that was very helpful.
So what does the death of Jesus achieve then?
Pam |
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Thank you. I want to reiterate that I likely fall into a more liberal slant than many good and noble people here, but you can be assured of a solidly Catholic understanding because where I inadvertently cross the line from "Catholic Theology" to "What makes sense to Albeto," others will gently and lovingly step in so you don't walk away with the wrong impression (and I will learn something as well - it's all good).
I've been reading through a book recently called. "The Latin Mass Explained" by Monsignor George J. Moorman. It was first published in 1920 and explains the Mass that has been formalized throughout the world in response to the protestant responses of Martin Luther's reaction to the Church in Germany. Today many Churches have "updated" the liturgy (the tangible practices that reflect the faith) but the essence of the faith is well established in the ancient liturgy of the faithful (ancient liturgy because these things, although formalized in the 16th century, are rooted to the very first days of the Apostles, indeed, rooted in our Jewish heritage).
The father starts off his book with explaining the nature and function of sacrifice. See, each Mass we celebrate, we celebrate the sacrifice of the Christ in an unbloody manner. Why the sacrifice? Because Jesus was sacrificed. Why the continued sacrifice if Jesus said "It is finished?" Because those words don't refer to the finishing of the sacrifice. The sacrifice is ongoing.
"Sacrifice is the highest form of religious worship. It is the outward expression of man's entire dependence upon God. This absolute dependence of man upon his Creator is expressed in the destruction, or change, of the thing offered. Without this destruction, or change, it would seem that man did not fittingly express his interior acknowledgement that God was the Sovereign Master of life and death and, as such, worthy even of being honored by the sacrifice of man's life, were He to require it.
"Man instinctively manifests his inward feelings by words and actions.... The highest, holiest, noblest and strongest sentiments of the soul conscious of its relations to God are those of the supreme adoration due to Him. Now the only outward sign which represents these sentiments of itself is sacrifice. Every other outward rite or act of religion may of itself be used to manifest the lower reverence paid to creatures as well as the high worship which is God's inalienable right."
Why sacrifice specifically? It's natural to humanity. The word "sacrifice" is derived from the two Latin words, sacer, meaning "sacred," and facere, "to make." The monsignor explains, "The words 'to sacrifice,' as quite commonly used, mean to offer something valuable to a person as a token of affection for, or dependence on, that person. If a father gives all he has to enable his children to receive a good education, and himself lives in straitened circumstances, he is said to make a great sacrifice for his children. When a soldier leaves home and country to battle for the defense of his country at the risk of his life and limb, he is said to sacrifice himself for his country. The young missionary who leaves his native land and comforts of home to preach the Gospel in foreign lands to hostile people is spoken of as making a great sacrifice. And rightly so, for when wealth and life and that which we hold dear are given for a noble purpose, they are rendered sacred."
He continues to explain the difference between honoring man and honoring God. When we offer God a gift, we do not just present them as we do our fellow man, we destroy them. The destruction of the object renders its recovery impossible. We do this not because God requires destruction. God has no "use" for things, but we do, and by rendering them destroyed, we put into action the belief we have that without God, all that we possess we have from God, and that we would give it to Him if He desired it. But He doesn't because God is Love and Love isn't destructive, it is creative (a hint into the Catholic theology surrounding marriage and procreation and artificial birth controls, but that's a conversation for another day).
So why destruction? Why sacrifice? The msgr. explains, "A sacrifice is that highest act of religion in which a duly authorized person offers to God some sensible [perceptible to the senses, not just mental] thing which is visibly immolated [killed as a sacrificial victim], either physically or mystically, in acknowledgement of God's dominion over all things and of our total dependence on Him."
This person in charge of the rite of sacrifice is the priest, the thing which is sacrificed is called the victim, the place where it is sacrificed is the altar. These four - priest, victim, altar, and sacrifice, are inseparable. Each one of them calls for the others.
"The great Sacrifice of the New Law," says the author, "is the Son of God Himself, Who by His death on the Cross offered Himself to His Heavenly Father for our sins. St. Paul teaches that Christ offered Himself as a Sacrifice on the Cross when, in reference to the shedding of His blood, he says that Christ 'offered Himself unspotted unto God.' (Heb 9:14). Christ's death on the Cross was in every sense a true sacrifice. ON the Cross we find the essentials of a true sacrifice: priest, victim, and immolation. At this sacrifice Christ is the priest, because He offered it. He is the victim , because He was offered. He immolates Himself by freely delivering Himself into the hands of His executioners. His Will thus became operative in the external slaying.
"Only this sacrifice properly honored God. Who offered it? The Son of God: He with whom God is well pleased. What did He offer? A gift truly worthy of God, a divine gift: Himself. In this sacrifice we see the Redemption of man, the reconciliation of earth with Heaven."
The author goes on to explain the continual sacrifice in our faith, as Christians must also have a substantial sign of the homage they feel towards God. It is the sacrifice in an unbloody manner upon the altar that marks the Christian faith. This has been understood in history and its roots can be found in Sacred Scripture.
So to your question, what does the death of Jesus obtain? In my understanding, it is the act of uniting Heaven and earth by completing the Incarnation. Pope Benedict XVI explains how Jesus' baptism is finalized in the Crucifixion and the Crucifixion is begun in Jesus' baptism in his book, "Jesus of Nazareth." In baptism we are mystically united with God through Christ. It also offers a tangible, sensible [perceptible to the senses] gift once and for all to show that we no longer need to sacrifice animals (man's greatest treasure - it served as the economy) as scapegoats to show our devotion to and sorrow for offending Divine Love. Because we are still devoted to, and we are still sorrowful for offending Diving Love, we still sacrifice. Only now, Christ, the priest, the victim, is offered at the altar in an unbloody manner as the Eucharist miraculously and mystically becomes the Real Presence of Our Lord, body and blood, soul and divinity, as it did when He raised up the Passover Bread and said, "This is my body."
Because of His continuing sacrifice, we can obtain the Grace of God (presence of God) in a tangible, sensible way in response to our contrite confession of having chosen ourselves over our God in our thoughts and in our deeds, in what we have done and what we have failed to do. After all, we are tangible, sensible creatures. God became man for this reason, God became the ultimate sacrifice for this reason, God continues to offer the divine sacrifice for this reason. Jesus did not die to appease an angry God who demanded blood to pacify his wrath. He did not die because God's rules for admission to Heaven require someone to die. He offered His own blood to express the perfect sacrifice, the divine sacrifice, the only sacrifice worthy of devotion to Divine Love.
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albeto
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| Posted: Nov 24 2010 at 2:55pm | IP Logged
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Willa wrote:
Just guessing here, but perhaps Albeto's discussion of the "natural" elements of faith and knowledge of God led to your question? Having "the Law written on our hearts" does not imply that we can take one single step towards heaven without grace. It merely makes us responsible and culpable. Our God-given human reason can lead us to distinguish between good and evil and to know the existence of God, though not without confusion and error. And again, not one single step towards God can be taken by man of his own human power.
Also, a short clarification of "God is not limited to reaching humanity from within the walls of His Church only". This statement, to Catholics, would mean that God is not limited by what He has set up for humans as the norm. It is an expression of God's power to go outside normal circumstances... as with the Good Thief on the cross. But NOT saying in any way that Jesus's death is superfluous; it is this part of the Divine Plan that makes everything else possible.
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Important corrections! Thank you!
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Willa
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| Posted: Dec 01 2010 at 8:25pm | IP Logged
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albeto wrote:
| where I inadvertently cross the line from "Catholic Theology" to "What makes sense to Albeto," others will gently and lovingly step in so you don't walk away with the wrong impression . |
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Hi Albeto,
I was just rereading this thread and thought maybe I gave the impression that I was being "more-orthodox-than-thou". I honestly didn't mean to come off that way. I am a convert to Catholicism, and from discussing Catholic doctrine with non-Catholics I am aware that they can get the impression from some terminology used that Catholics rely on "works" or "natural powers" to get into heaven.
So I was just (as I saw it) expanding on what you said with that focus in mind. My understanding of what you said was that Jesus was behind everything but I wanted to draw that part of it out specifically.
Of course, what I say, too, is only my paraphrase of what I understand about Catholic doctrine and is probably not the best way possible to communicate it. We are all in that boat I suppose!
If you did think I was "correcting" you, you were so very charitable about it that I am quite humbled and have some inspiration for this Advent
__________________
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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albeto
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| Posted: Dec 02 2010 at 12:03am | IP Logged
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Willa wrote:
albeto wrote:
| where I inadvertently cross the line from "Catholic Theology" to "What makes sense to Albeto," others will gently and lovingly step in so you don't walk away with the wrong impression . |
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Hi Albeto,
I was just rereading this thread and thought maybe I gave the impression that I was being "more-orthodox-than-thou". I honestly didn't mean to come off that way. I am a convert to Catholicism, and from discussing Catholic doctrine with non-Catholics I am aware that they can get the impression from some terminology used that Catholics rely on "works" or "natural powers" to get into heaven.
So I was just (as I saw it) expanding on what you said with that focus in mind. My understanding of what you said was that Jesus was behind everything but I wanted to draw that part of it out specifically.
Of course, what I say, too, is only my paraphrase of what I understand about Catholic doctrine and is probably not the best way possible to communicate it. We are all in that boat I suppose!
If you did think I was "correcting" you, you were so very charitable about it that I am quite humbled and have some inspiration for this Advent
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No worries! I understood and was glad you made those clarifications. Thanks!
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Help understanding differences
