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folklaur
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| Posted: Oct 05 2009 at 11:01am | IP Logged
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the swine flu thread got me thinking and wondering.
so, now i come to you ladies, and hope someone more knowledgeable than me can point me in the right direction to learn more.
i am wondering about Communion. i am not interested in a debate about which way to receive is better. but i am curious:
Is Communion, the way it is done in our Church, a big T or little t Tradition?
Early Christians, when sharing Communion, were in a much more "communal meal" type situation - with the bread/body being passed from person to person, and broken off by the individual. When did the practice that only a Priest could even touch a Host come into our religion?
thank you for any help!
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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: Oct 05 2009 at 11:15am | IP Logged
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I don't have any answers, but I have wondered about this, too, especially in light of the Orthodox way of receiving communion, soaked in wine, on a spoon.
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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folklaur
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| Posted: Oct 05 2009 at 11:26am | IP Logged
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| I don't have any answers, but I have wondered about this, too, especially in light of the Orthodox way of receiving communion, soaked in wine, on a spoon. |
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and not only Orthodox - Eastern Rite Catholics do it the same way.
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Paula in MN
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| Posted: Oct 05 2009 at 11:39am | IP Logged
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My dd10 was just asking me about this and I didn't have an answer. I'll be watching this with interest!
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stellamaris
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| Posted: Oct 05 2009 at 11:40am | IP Logged
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How I wish I had all my books here! As far as I can remember from my studies of the Early Fathers and Scripture, Holy Communion was always celebrated with a bishop or priest who consecrated and distributed the host. Often, in the very early Church, this was associated with a communal "agape" meal, but this meal was not holy communion per se. Because of abuses, this additional meal was discontinued very early...even St. Paul discusses this "agape" meal as problematic in his day.
Communion was celebrated in homes, often in Scripture in "upper rooms", perhaps in remembrance of the Last Supper which was celebrated in an upper room. Unleavened bread was used from the beginning, as the unleavened bread of the Passover was used by Christ Himself at the first Eucharist.
The authority to consecrate the bread was given to the Twelve by Christ Himself at the Last Supper; they were given further instruction during the forty days after the Resurrection, and further power came upon them at Pentecost.
The apostles both preached the Gospel and ordained priests/bishops to serve throughout the known world of their time. You can see this in the Scriptures, for example, St. Paul ordains Timothy and Titus and sends them out to shepherd churches as well as proclaim the Gospel.
Early Christians did take the Eucharist to the sick or imprisoned...but they didn't let just anyone touch or handle it. Witness St. Tarcissus, who gave his life to guard the Body of Christ he was carrying to Christians unable to attend Mass. I believe I have also heard (but never read in the Fathers) that early Christians also carried some of the consecrated bread home with them in baskets to sustain them throughout the week. I have no idea where that information came from, though. In the past, as today, if a priest is not available or if conditions warrant, Communion may be distributed by a lay person (which is why we have Eucharistic ministers).
I don't recall reading in any of the early Fathers that the bread was broken off or passed around by lay people. Do you have a reference for this? It seems to me that the crumbs this would have caused would have been a problem, at the very least. At the Last Supper, Christ broke the bread and distributed it to his disciples, just as the priest today breaks the bread during the consecration. I believe this breaking of the bread was part of the Jewish Passover, when the father of the house broke the "afikomen", one of three pieces of unleavened bread he had in front of him. The broken off piece was hidden, and found later. Early Christian saw this as a symbol of Christ, crucified and hidden in a tomb until He was "found" three days later.
Certainly, the consecration of the bread and wine is tradition with a capital T, as is the breaking of the host by the priest. Distribution by a designated Eucharistic minister or priest I believe has always been the case, as well, and I think would be "T".
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Caroline
Wife to dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
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folklaur
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| Posted: Oct 05 2009 at 11:56am | IP Logged
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stellamaris wrote:
| Unleavened bread was used from the beginning, as the unleavened bread of the Passover was used by Christ Himself at the first Eucharist. |
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just FYI - Eastern Rite Catholics (and Orthodox) use leavened bread.
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stellamaris
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| Posted: Oct 05 2009 at 12:08pm | IP Logged
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I do know that, but I don't think that dates to the time of Christ. The Jewish roots of Passover, which was foundational to the Christian understanding of Christ's mission and passion, would have dictated unleavened bread. I'm not sure when the leavened bread was introduced, or why. Good topic for research, though! 
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Caroline
Wife to dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
Flowing Streams
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Bookswithtea
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See, I've always wondered how the tradition of leavened bread came about for the Eastern Rites/Orthodox, as well. Given it was Passover, I think its a reasonable assumption that the Last Supper was one with unleavened bread, but I don't see how unleavened bread could be a big T tradition. Doesn't the leavened tradition in the Orthodox community predate the schism?
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Blessings,
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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stellamaris
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From one book I have here, This is the Massby Fulton Sheen, comes some insight into this question:
"At first the distribution of the Sacred Elements was done at the same table where the Agape had been held, and the clergy gave them to those who were around the table; but after the fourth century it was the congregation which went solemnly toward the altar, that "Holy Table" whose very name recalls the Table of the Last Supper. In primitive times, the consecrated Bread was put into the palm of the communicant's hand, and in the mind of the early Fathers this signified the sanctification of the human senses. Then the faithful would drink, in turn, form a common cup. Communion under the two kinds-by reception of both bread and wine-is even yet the rule among the Greeks; and it persisted widely in the West until about the twelfth century, not being, in fact, officially suppressed until the action of the Council of Constance in 1418."
So, it seems it was always distributed by the clergy, but distribution in the hand seems to predate on the tongue according to this. Of course, we do receive Communion under both kinds today in the Catholic Church.
Here's more form the Catholic Encyclopedia about leavened vs. unleavened bread. Seems there is some debate about what the earliest Christians used.
ETA: Books, I agree the use of unleavened bread is probably not "T" tradition, since according to this article a priest traveling in a place where he could not get unleavened bread could use leavened bread. I'm thinking it would fall under "illicit", but not "invalid" in the RC church today. Anyone have more documentation on this..that's all I can do today
.
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In Christ,
Caroline
Wife to dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
Flowing Streams
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: spin off question - Receiving Communion
