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Jamberry77
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In a parish-produced First Confession workbook which seems so far to be decent, I find the paragraph:
examples of mortal sins include stealing, not telling the truth, or disobeying one’s parents.
My limited catechesis never taught me that. I thought grave sins were more serious things, and that children rarely commit mortal sins. (I unfortunately know that teens are more susceptible.)
I asked the second grade director to explain it to me and I was referred to paragraphs 1852-1864 in the Catechism. (I had looked these up before I asked her the question.)
Now because of my pride, I want to know if I am right or the book is right. Yes, pride is bad. I am mostly leaning now toward just teaching the Baltimore Catechism definition (the three things that make a sin mortal) but then we get back to the question of what constitutes a grave sin for an elementary age child?
I don't want to make waves in the program at church, and I am already teaching my son with four other methods (Faith and Life, Catholic Heritage 2nd grade religion supplement, First Holy Communion Scrapbook, and Baltimore Catechism). I would really like to know from some "official" church document what would make a mortal sin for a child. (I already know about what's a grievous sin for teens and adults.)
If those things are mortal for little kids, I definately need to know (and be very careful in what I ask my sons to do, for if they disobey, it could have bad consequences).
Do you have any links?
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Kelly, mom to 9th and 5th graders
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stellamaris
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In order for a sin to be mortal, it must meet the following conditions (see the CCC, #1857 and following):
1. It must be objectively of grave matter.
2. It must be committed with full knowledge.
3. It must be deliberately committed.
For example, in the case of stealing, the amount stolen would have to be substantial or would have to seriously injure the person being stolen from in order to be objectively grave. Note that this is not a specific dollar amount over which a sin becomes "grave"; stealing $5 from a very poor person might be grave because it seriously harms that person. The child would also need to know that stealing is wrong. A person who is ignorant of a sin, through no fault of their own, would not be committing a mortal sin if they did the sinful act. So, a child who had not been told that stealing is wrong would be ignorant and stealing for them would not be a mortal sin. Finally, the act must be deliberate, committed with full consent of the will. Often a young person is not in full control of their impulses, or they do things without even thinking about them, and this would mean stealing would be venial. This lack of maturity also means that other actions which would definitely be sinful for adults are not for children. Another factor that would cause a sin to be venial instead of mortal, even if the first two conditions were met, would be psychological problems, such as compulsion.
A child COULD commit a mortal sin through stealing IF, for example, they knew it was wrong to steal, they deliberately reflected on whether or not they would take the money and then chose to do so, and the amount they stole was significant, either in actual dollar amount or in the damage done to the victim.
Once a person reaches the age of reason (around 7 in most cases), they can in fact commit mortal sin. However, because of the above conditions, such young children rarely do (now as they get a little older, the sad opportunity increases.)
Here is a good summary of what constitutes mortal sin.
St. Thomas Aquinas does say that disobedience to parents is a mortal sin, see Question 105 of the Summa. This must be considered in conjunction with the teaching of the Catechism on the necessary condition of grave matter. The disobedience must concern a serious thing...not just grabbing a few cookies or pitching a fit over wearing shoes instead on sandals (it might seem like a big deal to you, but it's not  ) This thread on Catholic Answers Forum (which I'm not sure you can access) discusses the problem. I have to say, I disagree with the post that says disobeying parents and taking cookies is a mortal sin...this person is overlooking the requirement for grave matter.
More on this matter from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"Besides the parental relationship and dignity account is to be taken of their authority. Children, so long as they remain under its yoke, are bound to obey. This does not mean, according to the teaching of St. Thomas (II-II, Q. civ, a. 2, ad lum), that they must intend to do what is commanded precisely because it is enjoined; it is enough that they be minded to do what is prescribed. This obligation covers all those matters and those only which make for the proper rearing of the offspring. Parents have no power to order their children to do what is sinful, nor can they impose upon them against their will any particular calling in life. Theologians find their criterion for determining the grievousness of the sin of disobedience by scrutinizing the command given as well as the matter with which it is concerned. They say that the offence is then to be rated as mortal when the communication of the parental will takes the form of a real precept given in earnest and not merely a counsel or exhortation. They further require that this behest should have to with something important.
There is no hard and fast rule to gauge the gravity of the matter in which an infraction of the duty of obedience will become a mortal sin. Moralists declare that this valuation must be made by the good sense of thoughtful persons. They add that in general when an act of disobedience is calculated to work serious harm to the parents, or interfere seriously with domestic discipline, or put in jeopardy the temporal or spiritual welfare of the children themselves, it is to be accounted a mortal sin. When the thing for whose performance or omission the parent's command is issued is already binding under pain of grievous sin, either by the natural or positive law, the setting at naught of the parental injunction does not involve a distinct sin of disobedience requiring a separate accusation in confession. The reason is that the motive of the command is assumed to remain the same in both cases. An example in point would be the defiance of an order given by a parent to a child to assist at Mass on Sunday, something which the latter is already bound to do.
Children are released from parental control when they attain their majority, or are legally emancipated. In the United States this latter may be done either by a written instrument or by means of certain facts which the statutes construe as sufficiently manifesting the consent of the parents."
Read the full article here
You can see this is a somewhat complicated problem. The best bet is for parents to be careful in issuing direct commands and for children to be conscientious in making a good confession...then you're covered!  Certainly God is merciful and there is not reason to live in fear of "accidentally" committing a mortal sin-it has to be on purpose.
A final note: constantly amplifying the seriousness of minor infractions might indicate the problem of scrupulosity
__________________
In Christ,
Caroline
Wife to  dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
Flowing Streams
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stellamaris
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Oh, and a better wording for the parish book might be, "Stealing, telling a lie, or disobeying one's parents might possibly be mortal sins, if they concern serious matters." There's no way to know without the specifics, and even then it's not always clear.
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In Christ,
Caroline
Wife to dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
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hylabrook1
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| Posted: Oct 02 2009 at 4:53pm | IP Logged
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Not to create a controversy, but I've been troubled by making lists of "these are mortal sins" and "these are venial sins". It seems that some of the criteria mentioned by Caroline, which are also the criteria I learned, cannot be reduced to items on a list. Things like whether someone committed an act deliberately or with full knowledge are not something someone else can pre-determine. It would seem to me that the level of seriousness of a sin would come to light to the individual as part of an examination of conscience (whether just before confession or as a daily discipline). So, and this is just my opinion (and I am not a moral theologian), I would also be uncomfortable with what your child is being taught, Kelly.
Peace,
Nancy
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stellamaris
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I entirely agree with you, Nancy. This is why we can never assume that anyone has in fact committed a mortal sin, since only God and that person truly know the whole story. It is also why we can't say for sure if any particular action is or is not a mortal sin. When I said there is no way to know without knowing the specifics I should have been more clear to state that only the person himself really knows those details.
Having agreed to that, it is important to instruct our children in what might constitute a mortal sin. What is considered serious, grave matter? What are the basic commandments and precepts of the Church? In other words, as parents we are responsible to form their consciences, without which formation they would never know whether they had committed a mortal sin or not, nor would they be able to properly examine their consciences. So there is a place to discuss possible mortal sins with young children, but it needs to be gently and carefully introduced. The Baltimore Catechism does a pretty good job of covering this topic.
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In Christ,
Caroline
Wife to dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
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Jamberry77
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Dear Caroline and Nancy,
Thank you for your contribututions. Caroline, I kind of knew what you wrote, but I needed some back up in my mind. I'm not going to pick a fight with the lady in charge but I may mention it to the priest in a friendly way and wonder aloud if it might not be changed just a tad.
I'm just a little afraid that it may scare off parents who haven't been to Confession in years. On the other hand it may bring some in. Regardless, all the parents of the children ought to know what the Church really teaches on these matters.
Thank you Caroline for educating me - my eleven year old and I have had some good discussions over this topic over the last week.
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Kelly, mom to 9th and 5th graders
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stellamaris
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I will pray that your discussion with your priest goes well!
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In Christ,
Caroline
Wife to dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Mortal versus venial for kids
