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tovlo4801
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| Posted: Dec 30 2005 at 4:47pm | IP Logged
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I've been presented with an apologetics dilemma that I'd love those wiser than me to help with.
I've entered into a friendly relationship with an ex-Mennonite woman who has no interest in being Christian, but does have a relationship with God that she describes as being most comfortably similar to the spiritual atheists and gnostics that she knows. I honestly don't completely understand her relationship with God.
I know that she had a painful break with her community because she realized that she could not profess the belief that was required to be an accepted member of her community and family. She has a lot of resentment over that. My understanding is that the main breaking point for her was not being able to find an acceptable answer to the question, "What exactly does a dead body do for us to save us?"
I can give a vague answer about covenents and atonement for sins, which she politely rejects. I posed the question to my dear husband who answered something along the lines of something needing to die and only God coming down and dying himself would satisfy the requirement. Trying to think in my new friend's mindset I asked, "Why? Why does something need to die?" I was greeted with a blank smile.
So can anyone help walk me through an acceptable Catholic perspective to the question of what exactly Christ dying on the cross does to provide us with salvation? This is probably a question I should have a more solid understanding of the answer to. Remember just drawing back to scripture probably won't satisfy my friend because she doesn't accept Christianity. She's actually pursuing a theology degree at a Lutheran seminary right now (while very vocally un-Christian)and is well-versed in theology. I'm not as well-versed in theology and I'm the conduit, so be slow with me OK?
She wrote a paper for her masters degree that she had me read recently to help explain her perspective. It discussed Maslow's hierachy of needs and Tillich's (have no idea who this is, but some of you probably do) ideas of salvation. I don't think I completely understood her point (actually she point blank told me I didn't  ), but I do know I was on the right track of getting that her idea of what salvation is actually has to do with self-actualization. Don't know if any of this background helps, but if anyone has any ideas for me on this question, I'd love them.
I'm sitting here with an open catechism in my lap. I'm in sections 599-618, but it's so dependent on a Christian perspective of the world. I just don't know where I need to go to give her something beyond something needs to die that would satisfy her quest to understand why Christ's death saves us.
Help?
Feel free to PM if you'd like. She is open to me passing things that I find on to her for informational purposes only. She would really resent feeling evangelized, but she's open to an intellectual exploration. She's very good about shooting back where her reservation on something is, so if I pass something along that she doesn't understand, I'm sure she'd be vocal about where specifically she has trouble. If anyone would be willing to be ongoing support for me in this dialogue I'd love it!
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folklaur
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| Posted: Dec 30 2005 at 9:08pm | IP Logged
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Wow.
Sorry, no help here, however, I hope that someone does answer with a good explanation.
My dd has recently asked me, "But why did God need a blood sacrifice? Why did He set it up like that in the beginning? Why did there need to be death for sacrifices to be worthy?" and my replies of not understanding the ways of God sounded lame even to me.
~Laura in AZ
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tovlo4801
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| Posted: Dec 30 2005 at 10:24pm | IP Logged
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Oh, I'm glad I'm not alone in not having thought this one through deeply enough. I feel a little lame telling this woman that I don't really know the answer, but I believe it to be true and trust it anyway.
I hope I get an answer for your dd too. I've posted on the Catholic Answers forum as well. I did get one answer that will require a little more digging for me to fill in, but if I get anything that really just sums it up, I'll post it here for you.
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Lissa
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| Posted: Dec 30 2005 at 10:35pm | IP Logged
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Richelle, do you have a copy of C. S. Lewis's MERE CHRISTIANITY? If not, I can type out the pertinent passage for you...his explanation was the first one ever to make SENSE to me--such a light bulb moment. I'm asleep at the keyboard right now but will try to come back to this tomorrow.
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Lissa
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tovlo4801
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| Posted: Dec 30 2005 at 10:50pm | IP Logged
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Lissa wrote:
| Richelle, do you have a copy of C. S. Lewis's MERE CHRISTIANITY? |
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Yes, we do! Save your fingers and just pass on the page numbers. I'm so excited to read it.
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Patrick
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I've been working on my theology degree and I've picked up a few things that have helped me explain the faith better to Protestants. I would say that the key to the question is sacramentality. With Sola Fide, they dropped the idea that the body has a role in salvation. People these days tend towards a philosophy following Descartes (I think therefore I am). They separate the mind from body, also the soul from the body. Our reality is that we're completely integrated.
It is true that my soul has no true size, weight, etc, but it is also true that it is not separate from my body. When you touch my hand, you're touching my soul. Why can I go spiritually haywire after I get hit in the head? If my soul and body are separate, then it should have no effect.
Sacramentality shows us that when we receive Christ phisically, we also receive him spiritually too. As human beings we naturally work in the physical realm and God, who made us, works through the physical in order to bring us a spiritual reality.
Now the big question. Did Jesus really have to die on a cross for us to be saved? No, because he can do whatever he wants. But, God does choose to work out our salvation through the physicial, so he chose to suffer and die on a cross for our salvation. It was a free choice that God made, just as he freely gives us salvation. His suffering and death is something physical for us to understand, just as the methods by which he gives us grace (the Sacraments).
I hope that this helps. And I especially hope that it's right. Really, I'd say that the comfusion is over a difference in Catholic and Protestant thought. I'm not really sure how a Protestant could answer a question like that.
Patrick
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momwise
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Just a small thought to add to Patrick's thoughts about the physical sign (sacrament)aspect of the sacrifice of the cross: someone who wants use logical reasoning to come to a spiritual truth might benefit from contemplating the virtue of justice. I thought of this a lot during my "reversion."
"A just person strives constantly to give others what is their due ... " from Character Building, a Guide for Teachers and Parents by David Isaacs
God's justice is perfect of course. He does not just negate a punishment we brought upon ourselves. But he suffers it so we can be freed from it. This is also how I figured out not everyone (regardless of their way of life) goes to heaven.
__________________
Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
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tovlo4801
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| Posted: Jan 09 2006 at 2:52pm | IP Logged
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Thank you Patrick and Gwen! I love these explanations. Would you mind if I copied and e-mailed your words to my friend?
Lissa, we found our copy of Mere Christianity and I think I know the chapter you are talking about. It's face down opened to that chapter on our coffee table, but I got distracted. Now that I've been reminded I'll have to get back to it. :)
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momwise
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| Posted: Jan 09 2006 at 10:29pm | IP Logged
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tovlo4801 wrote:
Would you mind if I copied and e-mailed your words to my friend?
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I don't mind. You may be able to word it a little better  .
__________________
Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
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Patrick
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| Posted: Jan 09 2006 at 11:55pm | IP Logged
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I sure don't mind. I'm honored that you'd want to do it.
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Anyone want to play apologist with me?
