| Author | |
folklaur
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2816
|
| Posted: March 31 2009 at 11:36am | IP Logged
|
 |
|
I didn't want to hijack the other thread, and, stellamaris, I am really not picking on you, it was just something you said made me wonder.
When we of the Latin Rite say, as stellamaris did, "Children receive beginning at age 7 because then they are at an age to understand that this Blessed Sacrament is the Real Presence of Jesus Christ, and they can also know and confess their sins.
how that works for Eastern Rite Catholics and the fact that babies receive? Does the CC see one way as better? I assume the answer will be "no, it is cultural." But then, isn't the reason that the Latin Rite does it at age 7 just as cultural, and much less about "being of an age to understand." While those are the words we may use to justify in our own minds why we do it the way we do, doesn't simply saying it that way imply that the Eastern Rite is doing it "wrong" in the fact that babies "don't understand" and have not reached the age of accountability?
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Alcat
Forum Pro
Joined: Feb 25 2005
Location: North Carolina
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 142
|
| Posted: March 31 2009 at 1:20pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I will give this a try. It's my understanding from our DRE (my MIL lol!) that this is just a tradition "small t" meaning it isn't dogma, and it could be changed at any time.
In the Tridentine form for baptism, the baby consumes a small bit of the Eucharist (along with some blessed salt). The child still doesn't receive the Sacraments regularly until they are around the age of "reason". In the old days many children didn't receive Holy Communion until Confirmation, around the age of 13....
So, there is no wrong way to do this, it's up to the Bishops and the tradition (small t) of the rite they adhere to...
Does this make sense?
p.s. I think that in some of the Eastern Rites traditions (which are in union with Rome) babies are even receive Confirmation at their Baptism.
Alison
__________________
mom to ds15, dd13 ,ds11, dd8, dd6, ds4, & dd18mos
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
stellamaris
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 26 2009
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2732
|
| Posted: March 31 2009 at 1:24pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Good point, cactus mouse. I actually was thinking about that when I wrote the other post, because I know the Orthodox Churches also give Communion to babies. I don't think, though, the difference necessarily implies one is "right" and one is "wrong", just that in the Latin Rite the preference is to have the children themselves participate and understand what they are receiving. So, yes, it is cultural, but there is also some explanation for it. Anyone out there know more about this than I do so I don't have to do a bunch of research???
__________________
In Christ,
Caroline
Wife to  dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
Flowing Streams
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
folklaur
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2816
|
| Posted: March 31 2009 at 1:45pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Alcat wrote:
p.s. I think that in some of the Eastern Rites traditions (which are in union with Rome) babies are even receive Confirmation at their Baptism.
Alison |
|
|
I know EOC does Chrismation (Confirmation) at the same time as Baptism/Eucharist. I would guess Eastern Rite Catholics would too, then, but I do not know for absolute sure.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MaryM
Board Moderator
Joined: Feb 11 2005
Location: Colorado
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13104
|
| Posted: March 31 2009 at 1:47pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
cactus mouse wrote:
| I know EOC does Chrismation (Confirmation) at the same time as Baptism/Eucharist. I would guess Eastern Rite Catholics would too, then, but I do not know for absolute sure. |
|
|
Yes, the Eastern Rite Catholics are chrismated as infants.
__________________
Mary M. in Denver
Our Domestic Church
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
folklaur
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2816
|
| Posted: March 31 2009 at 2:04pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
See...this is where I am having trouble.  When we are dealing with especially apologetics situations, even when we say things like, "Oh, it is a little t tradition, and it could be changed. But the reason we do such and so is because of this reason and see where the bible and ECF back it up?" So while we say, "sure it can be changed" we also are using authoritative means to show why we do what we do the way we do.
Like, when you get FHC, or Confirmation (as a baby? when you get FHC? As a teen?) Or having celibate priests. Etc, etc.
Isn't the most acurate answer, "that is just the way we do it."? Or *is* there a better way?
Again - I think the wording trips me up. Even if you look at Catholic.com, while saying on one side, "Oh, yes, in Eastern Churches it is the norm to have married priests"...that is then followed a few sentences later with how Paul said it is better to not be married, and how in Matthew it says, "...[others]renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it" and so that is why the Latin RIte does it that way.
How does that not sound like, "Oh, the Latin way is the "right way" - but we will allow - in certain cases -other rites to have their traditions."
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Lisbet
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2006
Location: Michigan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2706
|
| Posted: March 31 2009 at 2:45pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Quote:
| In the Tridentine form for baptism, the baby consumes a small bit of the Eucharist (along with some blessed salt |
|
|
No, the baby only comsumes blessed salt, not the Eucharist.
__________________
Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JodieLyn
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 06 2006
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12234
|
| Posted: March 31 2009 at 2:51pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
this is the way we believe, this is why we believe it..
those people believe differently but it's not such a critical issue that it prevents them from being in communion with us.
at least, off the top of my head that's how I think about it.
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: March 31 2009 at 3:26pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
The approach of the Eastern Rite is to emphasize the sacraments of Christian Initiation, receiving them all together. There's not a wrong or right way (East vs. West), just a different way of emphasis.
And the West has been evolving over time. Think of the beginning of the Church when people waited to receive Baptism for years and years. Holy Communion wasn't allowed until 12? until Pius X changed to age of reason.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:, The section on Confirmation explains the "Sacraments of Initiation (emphasis mine):
Quote:
| 1306 Every baptized person not yet confirmed can and should receive the sacrament of Confirmation. 123 Since Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist form a unity, it follows that "the faithful are obliged to receive this sacrament at the appropriate time," for without Confirmation and Eucharist, Baptism is certainly valid and efficacious, but Christian initiation remains incomplete. |
|
|
And while it doesn't include the Eucharist in the paragraphs below, the idea of the sacraments of Christian initiation is included, and help understand a bit of the East and West.
Quote:
Two traditions: East and West
1290 In the first centuries Confirmation generally comprised one single celebration with Baptism, forming with it a "double sacrament," according to the expression of St. Cyprian. Among other reasons, the multiplication of infant baptisms all through the year, the increase of rural parishes, and the growth of dioceses often prevented the bishop from being present at all baptismal celebrations. In the West the desire to reserve the completion of Baptism to the bishop caused the temporal separation of the two sacraments. The East has kept them united, so that Confirmation is conferred by the priest who baptizes. But he can do so only with the "myron" consecrated by a bishop.
1291 A custom of the Roman Church facilitated the development of the Western practice: a double anointing with sacred chrism after Baptism. The first anointing of the neophyte on coming out of the baptismal bath was performed by the priest; it was completed by a second anointing on the forehead of the newly baptized by the bishop. The first anointing with sacred chrism, by the priest, has remained attached to the baptismal rite; it signifies the participation of the one baptized in the prophetic, priestly, and kingly offices of Christ. If Baptism is conferred on an adult, there is only one post-baptismal anointing, that of Confirmation.
1292 The practice of the Eastern Churches gives greater emphasis to the unity of Christian initiation. That of the Latin Church more clearly expresses the communion of the new Christian with the bishop as guarantor and servant of the unity, catholicity and apostolicity of his Church, and hence the connection with the apostolic origins of Christ's Church. |
|
|
Also realize that the Eastern Churches are bound by a different Code of Canon Law see here
For us, the Code states:
Quote:
Can. 913 §1. The administration of the Most Holy Eucharist to children requires that they have sufficient knowledge and careful preparation so that they understand the mystery of Christ according to their capacity and are able to receive the body of Christ with faith and devotion.
§2. The Most Holy Eucharist, however, can be administered to children in danger of death if they can distinguish the body of Christ from ordinary food and receive communion reverently.
Can. 914 It is primarily the duty of parents and those who take the place of parents, as well as the duty of pastors, to take care that children who have reached the use of reason are prepared properly and, after they have made sacramental confession, are refreshed with this divine food as soon as possible. It is for the pastor to exercise vigilance so that children who have not attained the use of reason or whom he judges are not sufficiently disposed do not approach holy communion. |
|
|
From the Code of canons of Oriental Churches
Quote:
| Canon 697 Sacramental initiation in the mystery of salvation is perfected in the reception of the Divine Eucharist, and thus the Divine Eucharist is administered after baptism and chrismation with holy myron as soon as possible according to the norms of the particular law of the each Church sui iuris. |
|
|
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
stellamaris
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 26 2009
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2732
|
| Posted: March 31 2009 at 3:32pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I think we need to realize that even little "t" traditions have legitimate reasons why they were instituted. That does not mean that they are part of the deposit of Faith, or big "T" Traditions, but that the Church does have the authority from God to discern with the guidance of the Holy Spirit how to govern the faithful at any given moment in history. So, for example, in the past the faithful could not eat fish on any Friday under penalty of mortal sin, but today it is just recommend strongly and another penance may be substituted. One could find reasons for each of these traditions and support in Scripture for either one. That is exactly why the Magisterium is needed, and exactly why Jesus gave His apostles the authority to bind and loose in the first place. A variety of small "t" traditions allow flexibility and appeal, but big "T" Tradition is inflexible regardless of the time or place. The way to think of this is not, "The Latin Church is right, and we'll cut the lesser groups a little slack!", but, "The Catholic Church as a whole (all rites included) has the fullness of the faith and the Apostolic succession and authority. We all adhere to Tradition within our own traditions." In this case, diversity in the unity of Christ is a beautiful thing.
__________________
In Christ,
Caroline
Wife to dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
Flowing Streams
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
crusermom
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 09 2007
Location: New Jersey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 878
|
| Posted: March 31 2009 at 5:46pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
At our parish, the children receive Confirmation before FHC. Our pastor said that this is the original order for the Sacraments of Initiation. I had never seen this before - this is an Anglican use parish. I really need to take the time to understand this better.
Mary
__________________
Mary
Army wife and Crusermom to 8 wonderful children!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Alcat
Forum Pro
Joined: Feb 25 2005
Location: North Carolina
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 142
|
| Posted: April 01 2009 at 7:20am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Also remember that many of the eastern rites (meaning those in communion with Rome: Coptic, Maronite, various Greek Catholic Churches- the list is long), developed their traditions often in isolation. What I mean is that due to war, lack of communication etc they were, for the most part cut off from Rome so they developed their own traditions with out compromising the Teachings of the the Church... These traditions are as valid as the Roman Rite. It isn't an issue of right or wrong, just the beautiful variety of the Body of Christ.
p.s. sorry about the mistake inreguards to babies receiving the Eucharist in the Tridentine rite  thanks for the correction Lisa.
Alison
__________________
mom to ds15, dd13 ,ds11, dd8, dd6, ds4, & dd18mos
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
Forum Locked) 
4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: help? HC and Eastern Rite Catholics
