| Author | |
Schelleau
Forum Newbie
Joined: Jan 13 2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13
|
| Posted: Jan 21 2009 at 10:03am | IP Logged
|
 |
|
Hi, I am not sure if this is the right place to post this question, so please feel free to move it!
I have learned so much from this forum, and now I really need your help in explaining a question of faith to my sister. She lives in another state and only attends Mass at Christmas. I recently mentioned that I was trying to choose between the two churches near me (half an hour away in opposite directions) and went through the pros and cons of each one (one has lovely singing but is crowded, the other is small & quiet but no singing - and I love my hymns). My sister suggested that if I wasn't happy with those options, I could try out some of the other Christian demoniations in the area.
I know she is only trying to be helpful, and I really need your advice on how to explain to her why this feels like such a bad idea. This is very important to me as I am godmother to her two daughters.
When I mentioned that we had decided on a solution that works for us (attending the less crowded Vigil Mass at the big church) she said "I was secretly hoping you would do the rounds of the other denominations and have a review - there are some beautiful anglican and uniting churches around me and i am often curious what the service would be like."
I know this is something I would feel wrong about doing, but I can't seem to put the "why" into words!
Please help me to gently and lovingly explain to her why staying Catholic is so important, as I feel God is giving me an opening here that might nudge her back to Him.
Thanks! I am really looking forward to your replies 
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mackfam
Board Moderator
Non Nobis
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: Alabama
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14656
|
| Posted: Jan 21 2009 at 10:22am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Schelleau wrote:
I can't seem to put the "why" into words!
Please help me to gently and lovingly explain to her why staying Catholic is so important, as I feel God is giving me an opening here that might nudge her back to Him. |
|
|
Very simply, I can't go to another Christian Church because Jesus is present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Catholic Church. It is because of the Real Presence.
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Jen L.
Forum All-Star
Joined: Oct 18 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2148
|
| Posted: Jan 21 2009 at 10:24am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I know you will get great answers here. I have a 3 word one in the mean time:
The Real Presence
(I am walking out the door, and don't have time to right more. I'm Praying for the Holy Spirit to speak through you and for your sister)
__________________
Jen
dh Klete,ds (8/95),dd (12/97), dd (11/00), and ^2^ in heaven
"...the best state in which to glorify God is our actual state; the best grace is that of the moment..." St. Peter Eymard
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Jen L.
Forum All-Star
Joined: Oct 18 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2148
|
| Posted: Jan 21 2009 at 10:26am | IP Logged
|
|
|
too funny, i cross posted with Jennifer.
__________________
Jen
dh Klete,ds (8/95),dd (12/97), dd (11/00), and ^2^ in heaven
"...the best state in which to glorify God is our actual state; the best grace is that of the moment..." St. Peter Eymard
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
|
| Posted: Jan 21 2009 at 10:33am | IP Logged
|
|
|
The only possible problem with the Real Presence "position"is that the Catholic church teaches that some other churches that are separated or in schism with the Catholic church also have the Real Presence.
So, for me, it is also because I believe the Catholic church is THE church Christ established on earth when he told Peter, "on this rock, I will build my church." The chair of Peter (through whose authority we know all other Truths) and resting in its authority is why I would not leave.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
10 Bright Stars
Forum All-Star
Joined: Nov 16 2006
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 728
|
| Posted: Jan 21 2009 at 11:14am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I don't think the Catholic church teaches that other churches have the REAL Presence at all! I think the church teaches that there are elements of truth in other religions, but only elements of truth. We have the fullness of faith and Jesus can only truly be present in a Eucharist consecrated in the hands of a consecrated priest that was ordained a priest by an ordained Bishop, and on up the ladder till you get to the Pope who is the visible head of Christ on earth and in direct line and authority from Peter, the first Pope. Tell her you cannot go to other denominations to worship since this would be a grave sin. You must attend mass on Sunday, unless there is a serious illness or something, because to miss Mass as a Catholic on Sunday is a mortal sin.
My brother is an Episcopalian. He said he believed that Jesus was truly present in his communion. I think they might even teach this. Just because they teach this, does not mean it is so. That is the whole problem with the protestant revolt in the first place. They lost the pearl of great price, the Eucharist! That is why we try to bring them back into the fold. Of course they love Christ, of course they are good and trying to follow Christ, but they do not have the fullness of faith and they are deceived! Their relatives, ages ago, chose this lot for them, and I doubt they would neccesarily choose the same thing if they went back in time. They just believe this way since "their mom and dad did" etc. (I get that all the time.) It is as if they were born with a handicap. (I can see this now as a former Protestant.) This does not mean we are "better than them" or assured of Heaven. Quite the contrary! "To whom much has been given, much will be expected." Why would Christ set up so many denominations causing conflict, mass confusion and hatred??? He said by these marks you will know the church, it is "ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC." Can't get much clearer than that. God is a God of order, not chaos. Man caused the schism in the Church, not God. God has one bride and it is the Catholic Church. He doesn't have 1000's of brides which is all the scattered denominations.
This isn't a rant or anything. It probably came across as chastising, but I used to be a Protestant and all my relatives are Protestant. I feel a deep sorrow for what they lack, even though their desire for Christ is so great. I am sure the Holy Spirit works in their lives, but we are members of the true Body of Christ.
So, perhaps tell your sister you are a Catholic, therefore you go to a Catholic church which is the true church. Also, make sure you don't complain about the church at all to her if she is in this delicate or precarious position of faith. You want to be a witness to the lovliness of the Church, so you might want to talk to a fellow Catholic about the problems you have with different church times etc. since you don't want to give her any fuel for her fire. Just my thoughts!!! I hope I haven't offended in any way! You said you felt it was wrong, so definately trust your conscience in this area which is obviosuly grace. You may be the only thing to help right now. I would talk to a priest for advice. Ask her to come to Mass with you etc. Are the godchildren Catholic? Then, it is even more important that you personally feel strongly in your decision to go to the Catholic Mass and ask your sister and her children to join you. You could try to find something to invite her for; a special feast day celebration, a donut social to "break the ice" in her coming back?? Just ideas.
__________________
Kim married to Bob (22y)
Mom of 11 blessings:
Bobby 19, David 17, Noah 14,
Mary 12, Gracie 10,
Isabelle and Sophia 8,
Gabrielle 6,
William Anthony 4, Joseph 3 and Luisa Marie - born in M
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
|
| Posted: Jan 21 2009 at 11:34am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Eight Wonders wrote:
| We have the fullness of faith and Jesus can only truly be present in a Eucharist consecrated in the hands of a consecrated priest that was ordained a priest by an ordained Bishop, and on up the ladder till you get to the Pope |
|
|
Yes, and the Catholic church maintains that some schismatic groups such as the Eastern Orthodox and other non-Catholic churches have maintained apostolic succession down through the years (as in the case of the Orthodox, hundreds of years) and thus have the Real Presence even though they are not in union with Rome.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
|
| Posted: Jan 21 2009 at 11:39am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Here is the excerpt from the catechism:
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." 322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." 323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist." 324
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
juststartn
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 17 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1321
|
| Posted: Jan 21 2009 at 11:45am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I'd go with Kim's suggestion.
Also, I don't "complain" about anything regarding the Church, Mass, at all, with my family--they are all non-Catholic...
Rachel
__________________
Married DH 4/1/95
Lily 3/11/00
Helena(Layna) 5/23/02
Sophia 4/19/04
John 5/7/07
David 5/7/07
Ava Maria, in the arms of Jesus, 9/5/08
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
10 Bright Stars
Forum All-Star
Joined: Nov 16 2006
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 728
|
| Posted: Jan 21 2009 at 1:06pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Lindsay,
I am not sure if I agree with what I think you are saying. Are you saying that it is okay to go to the Baptist church down the road, as nice as they are, and still fufill the Sunday obligation based on the fact that there are certain shared similiarities of truth within our faiths? I think the quote is saying that we see the similarities, such as not having to be re-baptized when I came into the church since my Baptist baptism was accepted based on this shared point of faith/truth and that I was baptized "in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit." But it says that it is "an IMPERFECT" communion with the Catholic Church. I think this was addressing more of the issue that the Church used to say "there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church" type of thing. Only God will judge who will go to heaven etc.
The quote concerning the Orthodox churches says everything is almost there, but not enough to share a common celebration that could easily be fixed with just a little nudge in the right direction. It is NOT o.k. for a Catholic to go to another church service on Sundays for worship even if there are shared elements of the truth and our faith. Catholics are not allowed to worship in other church services. We can go to weddings and things like that, but we cannot receive "communion" in other churches, and I would think we could not participate in other services since to do so, would condone error. (I am not talking about ecumenical services which are in fact to help lead the flock BACK to the church, not to meet them half-way at the root and heart of that effort. )
I also am not talking about the Byzantine rites and the Greek Orthodox rites, which if I am correct, are in union with Rome and to go to Mass there on Sunday does fufill the obligation. I think that is why the Holy Father is so devoted to trying to get the Orthodox in Russia and other places like that to come back into union with Rome since there is nothing lacking there except the recognition of primacy of the Pope and maybe one other thing. (I do not know this for sure, perhaps someone else knows? )
Anwyay, I am probably misinterpreting your point entirely! Forgive me if I am.  I will have to study the quote a little more later. My lunch break is very much over!!  I guess the dangerous thing here is that the sister wasn't suggesting she go to a church that "is in union with Rome". It sounded as if she was suggesting she denomination shop, i.e. ditch the church, and go somewhere else entirely. I think that is the situation and not points of variations as far as rites of the church or orthodox rites that are still in union with Rome or have valid consecrations. (which I know nothing about etc.) I think she meant jumping ship altogether and that is what worried me.
__________________
Kim married to Bob (22y)
Mom of 11 blessings:
Bobby 19, David 17, Noah 14,
Mary 12, Gracie 10,
Isabelle and Sophia 8,
Gabrielle 6,
William Anthony 4, Joseph 3 and Luisa Marie - born in M
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JodieLyn
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 06 2006
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12234
|
| Posted: Jan 21 2009 at 1:22pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Kim, I think she was simply addressing the fact that there are some (few) churches in schism that do have a valid Eucharist.. not that we should attend them (we shouldn't).
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
|
| Posted: Jan 21 2009 at 2:19pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
JodieLyn wrote:
| Kim, I think she was simply addressing the fact that there are some (few) churches in schism that do have a valid Eucharist.. not that we should attend them (we shouldn't). |
|
|
Yes
Their Eucharist is *valid* but it is not *licit* that we attend them.
I only brought it up since people were offering the Real Presence as the reason they wouldn't attend another Church--since the Church itself says other churches (Orthodoxy, other schismatic "Catholic" churches who are sedevacantists) have the valid priesthood, valid sacraments, and therefore the valid Eucharist, the reason goes beyond even that, imo. The seat of Peter and the belief that the Catholic Church is the Church Christ established.
Eight Wonders wrote:
I also am not talking about the Byzantine rites and the Greek Orthodox rites, which if I am correct, are in union with Rome and to go to Mass there on Sunday does fufill the obligation. I think that is why the Holy Father is so devoted to trying to get the Orthodox in Russia and other places like that to come back into union with Rome since there is nothing lacking there except the recognition of primacy of the Pope and maybe one other thing. (I do not know this for sure, perhaps someone else knows? ) |
|
|
I think you might be a bit mixed up about Orthodoxy. The Byzantine, Maronite, and other Eastern RITES are in perfect union with Rome. Different liturgy, different bishops, but all under the pope in Rome (most of us here are Latin Rite Catholics).Any Catholic can attend these churches to fulfill a Sunday obligation.
Then there are churches like the Russian and Greek Orthodox churches which the Catholic church maintains has valid sacraments but we are not allowed to attend their services as a fulfillment of our Sunday obligation. True, the primary distinction is that they do not recognize the pope, but that is enough of a distinction that a faithful Catholic could not consider attending their services over a Catholic church simply because they prefer their liturgy. (I think that there are exceptions if you are not close enough to a Catholic Church to receive the sacraments, but I'm not sure what they are since I've never been in that situation.)
So, I was definitely not implying you could attend anywhere other than a Roman Catholic parish. Quite the opposite. I was just addressing the fact that the Real Presence alone isn't enough of a reason to not attend other denominational services. Fidelity to Rome and obedience are factors as well.
I apologize if I was unclear and got the thread off track.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
10 Bright Stars
Forum All-Star
Joined: Nov 16 2006
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 728
|
| Posted: Jan 21 2009 at 2:34pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I figured I just misunderstood you! Thanks for the information on all of that.
__________________
Kim married to Bob (22y)
Mom of 11 blessings:
Bobby 19, David 17, Noah 14,
Mary 12, Gracie 10,
Isabelle and Sophia 8,
Gabrielle 6,
William Anthony 4, Joseph 3 and Luisa Marie - born in M
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Barbara C.
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 11 2007
Location: Illinois
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 882
|
| Posted: Jan 21 2009 at 7:21pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
One other note is that just because the Roman Catholic Church deems that Orthodox (and some Lutheran) communions contain the Real Presence that does not mean that as Catholics we are welcome to receive communion at those churches. Orthodox churches usually require converts from Catholicism to undergo their own initiation process before being allowed to receive communion. And with Lutheran churches it can be hard to know which priests are validly ordained and which are not.
So, the original answer of being able to receive The Real Presence would be an extremely valid reason #1. With the True Church being #2.
__________________
Barbara
Mom to "spirited" dd(9), "spunky" dd (6), "sincere" dd (3), "sweet" dd (2), and baby girl #5 born 8/1/12!!
Box of Chocolates
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Schelleau
Forum Newbie
Joined: Jan 13 2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13
|
| Posted: Jan 23 2009 at 8:34pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Wow - that was a really interesting discussion! Thanks, everybody for your help
I now have a much better understanding that I can communicate to my sister, and which will also help me in my own faith! It amazes me that I spent my whole school life at Catholic schools and was taught by many nuns, yet, while I have a 'feeling' for all of this and a strong faith, I was never really taught the details, at least, not so that they stuck. This is one of the things I am hoping to change by homeschooling my sons - and I am incredibly grateful to you all for being here to educate me first!
Eight Wonders said
"Are the godchildren Catholic? Then, it is even more important that you personally feel strongly in your decision to go to the Catholic Mass and ask your sister and her children to join you. You could try to find something to invite her for; a special feast day celebration, a donut social to "break the ice" in her coming back?? Just ideas."
Yes, my goddaughters were baptised Catholic, which is just one of the reasons why I am reluctant to let her comments go unanswered. The other is that we have only become close enough to talk to each other about these things now that we are both in our 30s and have kids of our own. I would dearly love to invite her to church with me, and I am sure she would come. The difficulty is that we live in different cities and our only communication is by email and blogposts (since neither of us ever seem to get near the phone at a reasonable hour lol).
Thanks again for all your comments. Now, I have a nice long chatty email to write :)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: How to explain?
