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folklaur
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The mention of IVF in another thread made me remember a discussion I was witness to. I have no idea how to answer this. Can you help?
If IVF is inherently evil, and inherently against God's Will for us, why does it work? If God needs to will each of us into being, why would He will a child that is conceived through IVF? If human beings are somehow different than other animals conceiving in that each of us is directed willed by God, (as opposed to the idea that Biology just works the way it does because God set it up like that...) then, shouldn't IVF not work, as God has a special hand in particularly endowing us with a soul?
(this is not about how each child is precious, etc. That was not the point they were making. They agree each child is precious. And of course, our free will allows us to sinfully choose things like IVF. But does that make God part of the sinful act by endowing the soul anyway? Why not have something like IVF - especially if we are set apart and different than animals in that God has specifically willed each of us - just not work?)
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JodieLyn
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wouldn't this fall into God being able to bring good from anything, good or evil?
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folklaur
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JodieLyn wrote:
| wouldn't this fall into God being able to bring good from anything, good or evil? |
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See, that was my first thought too.
But, then, wouldn't that mean that the child conceived by IVF was still willed specifically by God?
And doesn't the "success" of IVF "working" tempt others to do it?
(I am not saying I disagree with you at all. It was just thinking through their argument/POV really had me going around in circles, and I am trying to work through it...)
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folklaur
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I htink one of the "issues" was that it was not like other sins - where the result of our actions can ultimately be used for good. It was more like a "special circumstance" kind of situation. Since the act itself is inherently evil, and since God needs to will each of us and endow us with a soul, do we...."force" God to be implicated in our sinful behavior?
If "no" - then aren't these children - like those conceieved naturally - also directly willed by God? If not, then how can IVF work?
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JodieLyn
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I understand Laura, I do the same type of thing when I'm confused about something.
I'm not sure I can help you any further along though.
I haven't really studied this topic a lot, and I'm short on sleep. 
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folklaur
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JodieLyn wrote:
I haven't really studied this topic a lot, and I'm short on sleep.
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That's okay, thank you for trying 
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Red Cardigan
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Maybe I can help a little.
Rape is a terrible act, a sin. But some children conceived in rape became important parts of God's plan. Does that mean that God willed the rape to happen?
Incest is a terrible act, a sin. But Lot's daughters in the Bible committed that sin, and God allowed their children to become part of His plan. Does that mean that God condoned the incest?
Fornication, adultery, polygamy, etc. are all sins. Yet God allows children to result from all of these things. Does God want these things to happen?
In each of these cases we can see that God did, indeed, choose to call a new human life, body and soul, into existence in these less than ideal, even evil, circumstances. But we know that He, who is all good, does not ever want evil to happen. So how do we explain it?
In the first place, we can say that God's plan for the world includes both His perfect plan, and His permissible plan. In His perfect plan there would be no evil at all, but since the Fall there have been evil choices as well as good ones, light as well as darkness. God is capable of illumining the darkness, and turning even our evil choices toward His purpose, to fulfill His will. This doesn't justify our evil choices, but we can trust in His saving power even when evil has occurred.
But in the second place, and even more simply, we can look at the reality of the biology. God created man and woman so that when egg and sperm unite, a new life comes into being. Even when that biological reality is divorced from the marital act, as in IVF, the intrinsic nature of conception remains, such that conception can indeed occur outside the womb, and a child can result. Though the act is a terrible evil, the child, like all children conceived in less than moral circumstances, is innocent of the sin. He may, indeed, suffer from its consequences in later life, as he tries to make sense of his origins; but the blame is not his.
So, just as God leaves intact the nature of conception in cases of rape, incest, polygamy, etc., so does He leave it in IVF. This doesn't mean that we should be indifferent to the evil, and we must oppose it fervently; but the child who results, like all children, is to be welcomed, protected, and loved.
Hope this makes sense!
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Jen L.
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I have thought about the same thing many times.
Short answer:
God can make good come out of everything.
If I am robbed, God does not want nor make the robber do the crime. He does, however, make it "work for good"(Romans 8:28).
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JodieLyn
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Oh I thought of another thing.. God sometimes gives people what they want, even if it's not good for them. (isrealites wanting meat rather than manna)
Red Cardigan wrote:
| all children conceived in less than moral circumstances, is innocent of the sin. He may, indeed, suffer from its consequences in later life, as he tries to make sense of his origins; |
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Perhaps, it's so that these children born of these circumstances, can speak out against it when they're grown?
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folklaur
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Red Cardigan wrote:
But in the second place, and even more simply, we can look at the reality of the biology. God created man and woman so that when egg and sperm unite, a new life comes into being. Even when that biological reality is divorced from the marital act, as in IVF, the intrinsic nature of conception remains, such that conception can indeed occur outside the womb, and a child can result.
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Not arguing with you. Simply asking to work out questions.
The above makes sense to me, especially from a scientific stand point. I actually think it makes a LOT of sense. But then, it would lead me to not seeing human conceptions as being each individually willed by God the same way. God seems to be working with Biology, as opposed to specifically willing each individual.
Red Cardigan wrote:
| Though the act is a terrible evil, the child, like all children conceived in less than moral circumstances, is innocent of the sin. |
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This was never in question. The discussion never even touched on the child having any personal guilt, etc. This was simply the act of conception thru IVF.
Red Cardigan wrote:
So, just as God leaves intact the nature of conception in cases of rape, incest, polygamy, etc., so does He leave it in IVF. |
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HHhhhmmm.....but there is a difference, in that in cases such as rape, incest, etc - there is an angle of abuse going on - whether violent, as in rape, or more subtly, as in most (tho I would concede not all) cases of polygyny (which is what we are usually talking about when polygamy is discussed in this country.)
Red Cardigan wrote:
but the child who results, like all children, is to be welcomed, protected, and loved.
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Right - this was never in question.
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folklaur
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JodieLyn wrote:
| Perhaps, it's so that these children born of these circumstances, can speak out against it when they're grown? |
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I would really ahve to wonder though - why would a child born through IVF with both of his parents as the donors, who was "simply" (I know it it isn't really simply) carried by a surroagte, have any reason to "speak out against it"?
It seems w/o IVF, the person wouldn't be here. They may very much appreciate the fact that IVF was an option for their parents.
And - especially if the parents are both biologically his own, then why would he even be told?
(I can see more of a case against IVF being made when you are dealing with donor sperm/eggs. But in the cases of both of the biological parents being the donors, I have a harder time finding a sound argument, that isn't just "The Church says so." A non-Catholic isn't going to give one wit what the Church says. And so if I am going to say it is intrisically wrong whether you are Catholic or not...I would like to have something a little more sound. If that makes sense.)
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Willa
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Red Cardigan wrote:
| In the first place, we can say that God's plan for the world includes both His perfect plan, and His permissible plan. In His perfect plan there would be no evil at all, but since the Fall there have been evil choices as well as good ones, light as well as darkness. God is capable of illumining the darkness, and turning even our evil choices toward His purpose, to fulfill His will. This doesn't justify our evil choices, but we can trust in His saving power even when evil has occurred. |
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This is what it comes down to. ... the difference between God's active will and his permissive will.
God specifically wills each new human in the sense that he gives each one a unique, eternal soul. But in normal circumstances, He gives us (parents, I mean) a great gift and a great responsibility -- we have the power of reproduction and the responsibility to use it in a good way. Unfortunately, some of us don't and so there are children born out of wedlock and in other unfortunate circumstances. But He is not going to refuse His special act of creation of a new soul just because the child -- a good thing in itself -- was born due to the sinful mis-use of the procreative process by its parents.
The alternative -- God making IVF procedures incapable of producing children -- would seem to mean God would have to make a special, negative act -- that is, the biological preconditions of conceiving a child would be there, yet the conception wouldn't happen. He would have to act directly against the norm He set up, that human sperm united with egg has a chance of producing a new human life --and I don't see quite why He should do that.
The other alternative -- allowing the biology to work out so a baby is conceived, but not assigning uniquely created souls to new children born out of the procedure -- is even worse, it seems. There would be human beings running around that looked human but were never ensouled? Why would God do that, either -- it is not the child who is at fault if his parents used an illegitimate method to produce the child. God does not have to be constrained by our sin -- He can work His will for greater good even though individual humans are refusing to cooperate with His perfect will.
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folklaur
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Willa wrote:
This is what it comes down to. ... the difference between God's active will and his permissive will.
God specifically wills each new human in the sense that he gives each one a unique, eternal soul. But in normal circumstances, He gives us (parents, I mean) a great gift and a great responsibility -- we have the power of reproduction and the responsibility to use it in a good way. Unfortunately, some of us don't and so there are children born out of wedlock and in other unfortunate circumstances. But He is not going to refuse His special act of creation of a new soul just because the child -- a good thing in itself -- was born due to the sinful mis-use of the procreative process by its parents.
The alternative -- God making IVF procedures incapable of producing children -- would seem to mean God would have to make a special, negative act -- that is, the biological preconditions of conceiving a child would be there, yet the conception wouldn't happen. He would have to act directly against the norm He set up, that human sperm united with egg has a chance of producing a new human life --and I don't see quite why He should do that.
The other alternative -- allowing the biology to work out so a baby is conceived, but not assigning uniquely created souls to new children born out of the procedure -- is even worse, it seems. There would be human beings running around that looked human but were never ensouled? Why would God do that, either -- it is not the child who is at fault if his parents used an illegitimate method to produce the child. God does not have to be constrained by our sin -- He can work His will for greater good even though individual humans are refusing to cooperate with His perfect will. |
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Oh, Willa, I like the way you explained some of this, a lot!!! Thank you!
So...(as a tiny follow-up question), where you said "a great gift and a great responsibility -- we have the power of reproduction and the responsibility to use it in a good way." How is our "power of reproduction" any more....powerful and responsibity-bearing than the rest of the animal kingdom? How is ours a gift? Is it due solely to God endowing us each with an eternal soul?
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Willa
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cactus mouse wrote:
| So...(as a tiny follow-up question), where you said "a great gift and a great responsibility -- we have the power of reproduction and the responsibility to use it in a good way." How is our "power of reproduction" any more....powerful and responsibity-bearing than the rest of the animal kingdom? How is ours a gift? Is it due solely to God endowing us each with an eternal soul? |
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I am thinking that it is partly what you said about the eternal soul -- and also because of something that is related, that God gave us free will, made us in HIs image. It is even a gift that animals give birth to animals, but it does not come with the same responsibility for them because they do not have freedom to decide in the same way we do. ... they operate reproductively by instinct only. God's way with us is like taking us behind the scenes, opening up the book to us in a way that isn't given to the animal kingdom. It is the sense in which we are "made in the image of God".... we are given the ability to understand and choose how to behave, but entrusted with the responsibility of using the freedom rightly. Or that is how I understand it, anyway.
A real choice in how to behave gives us a possibility of doing harm. I guess God could have made us otherwise, so we didn't have a real possibility of doing evil, but then we wouldn't have a possibility of doing real good, by free choice rather than by "programming" of instinct and training as the animals do it. ETA I am not absolutely sure that addressed what you were asking -- hope so though It seems to be a very philosophical type question in that it gets to the heart of how and why God brings good things out of bad.
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Bookswithtea
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Not entirely on topic, but I read a very interesting book last summer called Waiting For Daisy. Its an autobiography of a self proclaimed feminist/liberal Jewish woman and her journey to have a baby. The book itself doesn't have an agenda...its just her story. In spite of it not being from a Christian point of view, I couldn't put it down.
I was only minimally familiar with what the Church teaches about IVF before reading this book. After I read it, and even though it was not the author's intent, I was fully appalled by IVF.
just another measly .02
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LisaR
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the marital act is designed to be unitive and procreative.
when we try to manipulate a child into being without these two acts then it falls outside the range of God's will. (no unity) and I know that everyone has mentioned before about the child not being at fault in this equation...
Willa, liked your explanation! took me back to my Moral Theology days!
Books- that book is appalling, I agree, and reminds me how when marriage and unity are not there, it can get pretty sad....
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Red Cardigan
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Willa wrote:
The alternative -- God making IVF procedures incapable of producing children -- would seem to mean God would have to make a special, negative act -- that is, the biological preconditions of conceiving a child would be there, yet the conception wouldn't happen. He would have to act directly against the norm He set up, that human sperm united with egg has a chance of producing a new human life --and I don't see quite why He should do that.
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Willa, thanks for "fleshing this out" much better than I did!
What I was getting at was that God allows the biology (and adds His gift of the soul) in rape, incest, polygamy, fornication, adultery, etc. So for Him to deliberately withhold that gift for IVF would be like saying that IVF was so much worse than these other sins that He was going to step in and "void" the biology just to make sure no children would ever result from this sinful act.
That said, it's interesting to note that some of these sins (like rape and IVF) have noticeably low rates of birth. One of the tragedies of IVF is that many tiny embryos die before one "success" is produced much of the time, and sometimes a woman will go through many attempts (and lose many children) without ever giving birth to a live child. 
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doris
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This doesn't directly address the OP, but just to add a personal note -- I'm donor conceived myself, the product of donor sperm, although conceived in the days before IVF. Obviously the donor issue adds another huge dimension to the argument, but on a personal note the fact that I was conceived in a doctor's office, through a very clinical procedure (and I don't even want to think about how the sperm was produced in the first place) is very sad and hollow. I can imagine that an IVF conceived person might feel the same -- that instead of being the product of their parents' marital embrace, they were 'engineered' by technicians.
As well as lots of embryos being lost during the procedure, as Red Cardigan mentioned, there are of course lots who are deliberately produced as 'spares' or almost accidentally. Then the couple have the terrible dilemma of what to do with them. Here in the UK, they have to be either donated (anonymously) or destroyed after five years
We have lots of friends who've used IVF, and when, very occasionally, the Catholic perspective has come up, they've been very unmoved by the 'no separation of unitive and procreative' part of the argument, but much more so by the unwanted embryos argument. (Imagine how an IVF conceived adult might feel about being the one who was chosen, while all the rest were destroyed!) Even though the argument seems to be just 'it's wrong because we say so,' it's not that at all. We only have to look at what's happened in the world to see the effects of separating the unitive and procreative... family breakdown, divorce, unwanted pregnancy, soaring abortion rates... It's all part of the same thing.
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: IVF question
