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Taffy
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I hope I can ask this silly question here... 
I've often run into the notion that playing the guitar during Mass is somewhat frowned upon? It often seems to be associated with a Mass that has liturgical abuses within it.
I'm somewhat puzzled with this opinion. We often have a guitar to accompany the hymns during Mass and I don't see a problem with it.  Is there something I'm missing in all of this?
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organiclilac
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I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with the guitar, it is just often in use along with liturgical abuse. However, it is currently permitted at Mass. I do think it is unfortunate that, although other forms of music are permitted, many overlook the fact that Latin, chant, and the pipe organ are supposed to still have a prominent place in the liturgy.
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LLR4
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Say what?
I have never heard such a thing.
I love guitar playing and folk groups at mass.
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Martha
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I don't much care what instrument is used as long as the music played/sung is appropriate. I've heard just as not appropriate music on a beautiful organ or piano as by guitar.
I don't remember ever learning that the Church claims any one instrument to be more holy than another. 
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Tami
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The Vatican II documents ( I believe) talk about the organ as the prominent instrument for liturgy. This is dh's area of expertise, I'd have to get particulars from him.
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CrunchyMom
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Martha wrote:
I don't much care what instrument is used as long as the music played/sung is appropriate. I've heard just as not appropriate music on a beautiful organ or piano as by guitar.
I don't remember ever learning that the Church claims any one instrument to be more holy than another. |
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But it does. Well, perhaps not holier, but more sacred. There are church documents (that are ignored) that state that the organ (and chant and the Latin language) are special and are to have a prominent place in the liturgy.
SC # 120: “The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin Church, for it is the traditional musical instrument, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts men’s minds to God and higher things. But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship…on condition that they are suitable for sacred use…”
I think that the guitar, while beautiful in its own right (and perfectly acceptable if it is the best instrument a community of believers has to offer) is considered "secular" and generally the music performed on it is of a secular nature instead of sacred. An example used in this article further down is that style isn't the only consideration. Mozart wrote music in the classical style that was both very secular (The Magic Flute) and very sacred (Ave Verum Corpus)in nature. However, one would be highly inappropriate at mass while the other would not be confused as anything other than sacred.
Gregorian chant is the original music of the church. It is easy for a group of people to sing together beautifully (unlike folk music) and the human voice is the cenral element. The pipe organ was introduced because it mimicks the human voice so closely.
I don't have time to explain further or find the documents I've read in the past, but I can point you to some church documents and such later if you really want to read further. It really is an issue that goes a bit beyond a simple negative association. Hope that helps. 
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CrunchyMom
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Tami wrote:
| The Vatican II documents ( I believe) talk about the organ as the prominent instrument for liturgy. This is dh's area of expertise, I'd have to get particulars from him. |
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Or better yet, it sounds lke Tami's husband could put his fingers on them faster!
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Tami
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CrunchyMom wrote:
Tami wrote:
| The Vatican II documents ( I believe) talk about the organ as the prominent instrument for liturgy. This is dh's area of expertise, I'd have to get particulars from him. |
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Or better yet, it sounds lke Tami's husband could put his fingers on them faster! |
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He has 2 rehearsals today: chidren at 4:30 and schola at 7! We'll see who gets to it first! 
You've got a great handle on it tho, Lindsay!
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guitarnan
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Well, as a liturgical musician (guitar) with a 34-year track record, I feel I should weigh in.
I lived through the "Sons of God" and "Take Our Bread" (the world's worst Offertory song!) era and am not sorry to see those songs go away forever. I can easily see how some parishes that cling to the worst of the '70s guitar tunes are off the mark entirely. However, I believe there is a place for guitar at Mass...particularly in an ensemble.
If you look at the history of instruments, you'll seldom find any that were only used for religious purposes, nor will you find (after the Middle Ages) many instrumental composers who focused exclusively on liturgical music, unless they belonged to religious orders or were ordained. Why? Composing for dukes and kings paid the bills. Even the organ wasn't always used in liturgy (the first water organ dates from before Christ). Of course, the organ came to be associated with Church music early in its history, but it certainly wasn't invented for that purpose.
I also agree that giving the organ pride of place is proper. Nothing stirs the soul quite like a wonderful, reverent piece played well on the organ. But what happens in a parish that can't afford an organ, or can't afford to fix a broken one, or can't hire a competent organist (our last parish's accompanist would only play in two or fewer sharps and flats...that lets out a lot of hymns!)? Shouldn't we be able to use piano, guitar, flute, trumpet, etc. in reverent and appropriate ways?
Expanding on Linday's comments, I think we have to look at compositions as well as instruments when we decide what music is appropriate for Mass. A hymn written for organ can be just as inappropriate as one written for guitar, because there is a lot more to music than the instrument used to play a piece. The lyrics could be trite or inappropriate. The tune could be based on a secular song that people know and associate with inappropriate behavior. The overall sound of the hymn, when sung, could grate on the nerves due to poor arrangement of syllables and tempo (our cantors and traditional choir are using a Gloria like that right now...who wants to hear "rec-ee-ee-eive our prayer" sung in a whiny tone?).
Having said that, I am no fan of four-line praise team refrains...liturgical music is supposed to support us every day, not just Sunday, with the words of the Psalms and with praise for our God. We don't need to dumb down liturgical music.
I definitely don't want to go back to the days when using tunes from "Jesus Christ Superstar" at Mass was considered okay. It's not, on many, many levels. But I do think we should look carefully at all aspects of liturgical music before we point fingers at instruments or musical styles...and we should also remember that the Church is universal. I know most of us would be horrified to hear mariachi music at Mass, but there are places in the world where it's considered appropriate. We have to be careful not to accidentally denigrate other cultures' instruments.
Obviously, I am not unbiased. I have played my instrument at Mass for decades...it's definitely one of my callings...(I was truly called, during Mass, wow). I've been privileged to be a (secondary to piano/organ, mostly) guitarist for many choirs. Done right, multi-instrument ensembles can really add to the worship experience.
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PDyer
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guitarnan wrote:
| Done right, multi-instrument ensembles can really add to the worship experience. |
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Our music ministry includes many different ensembles some of which include guitars (and violins, cellos, bass, trumpets, clarinets, piano AND organ). I think the music at our parish is well-done,although I could do without some of the hymn choices. Our pastor is very musical and the music ministry is a focus of his, I think.
I know this is a matter of personal taste...but I don't think I'll ever get used to the drum set at my parents' parish. It just doesn't sound right to me.
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mariB
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Couldn't have said it better Guitarnan...from one liturgical musician(guitar) to another!
I do like guitar at mass when it is played beautifully. Our son has played classical guitar at mass in the past which sounded lovely. Our parish is on the verge of closing down.  ...So we do attend a church that has beautiful piano played at mass. For me there is nothing quite like choirs and organs...latin hymns and this parish also has a mass with all this included.
Let us not forget the commitment and difficulty in finding people willing to be music ministers within a parish. Music at mass is so often criticized and taken for granted!
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Martha
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Quote:
| There are church documents (that are ignored) that state that the organ (and chant and the Latin language) are special and are to have a prominent place in the liturgy. |
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I know that actually, but that's not what I meant
prominent does not equal exclusive
as others have noted, inappropriate music played by an organ does not make it appropriate.
personally, I'd rather have silence unless it's a high mass such as at christmas or easter. (for those, I like all the stops pulled out in a big way  ) My pet peeve is hearing in the middle of receiving eucharist the booming voice of the music minister saying "please turn to page whatever in your hymnal as we celebrate the eucharist!"
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We are totally into silence, even my children are...the singing drives them crazy (apples don't fall far from the tree). The silent Mass for us though is at 7am and we aren't able to do that all the time . So we go to the next Mass and most times I note that none of my children (even though they can read) aren't following along with the songs. There are trumpets, that are so loud. Most of the songs are so high, you can't sing with them. So I don't know...if songs aren't accessible, should they even be there, are they then just "entertainment" so it won't be silent? KWIM?
My dh played guitar at their "folk" Mass when he was a kid in Buffalo. Although he plays guitar every day at home (not religious songs) he has no desire to go back to church. Again, I think it's because we crave that silence.
Okay, that probably didn't address the original post, sorry
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Very good discussion. Sacred music is such a hot topic button, as personal tastes and feelings are hard to extricate from the discussion. Having been a church musician for most of my life, I am aware of the controversies.
I agree with both Lindsay and Nancy on their points. A good article to read Musicians in Catholic Worship III, Bells and Whistles, Guitars and Tambourines by Lucy Carroll which summarizes the above discussion, and really gives a good litmus test to the appropriateness of the instrument.
When I think of guitar, I always think of the use of the guitar on Christmas Eve in Austria, and the Christmas Carol "Silent Night". I know it was lovely and reverent.
The ideal Mass is one with beautiful music that brings the soul to prayer. Cacophony doesn't. We have some of that at our "folk" and children's masses, which would drive us to want silence. I don't have the quote, but I think it's not proper to have a silent Mass...or if there is any music, it needs to be the parts of the Mass, not just the sandwich hymns (processional and recessional). If I find the quote I'll pass it along.
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I've been to weddings where there are mariachis playing during the Mass and I personally think it is aweful. It is so distracting and their outfits are meant to call attention as well. My husband is a full time musician (Mexican and Spanish style guitar), and is frequently asked to play the Mass. He always refuses, even though music is what our family lives on :)
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Martha wrote:
personally, I'd rather have silence unless it's a high mass such as at christmas or easter. (for those, I like all the stops pulled out in a big way ) My pet peeve is hearing in the middle of receiving eucharist the booming voice of the music minister saying "please turn to page whatever in your hymnal as we celebrate the eucharist!" |
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I am with you on the silence thing. My pet peeve is when they start singing "Sacred Silence" during communion! I always think, yes, it is, and you're ruining it!
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guitarnan
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Martha, that used to be my pet peeve, too (like people can't read the number board!) - until our priests started reading parish announcements before the Preparation of the Gifts. Talk about a jarring experience! (I do plan to write a letter as soon as I have time!) It's even worse than cell phones or gum chewing at Mass...
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sarahb
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Frankly, organs are very expensive. Guitars are not. I like guitars and organs but one is simply more feasible for small congregations.
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Our parish has a small keyboard/organ/type electrical instrument that sits there.. because there is no one to play it. But we are blessed to have a couple of muscians that can play guitar and do so.
I like the songs, it really helps me focus on what I should be thinking about.. silence unfortunately usually means that my brain wanders away with me and who knows what I end up thinking about.
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Angie Mc
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guitarnan wrote:
| I lived through the "Sons of God" and "Take Our Bread" (the world's worst Offertory song!) era and am not sorry to see those songs go away forever.... |
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Oh goodness, not to take away from the seriousness of this subject but this line made me laugh out loud . (Thanks, Nancy, I needed a laugh today.)
Love,
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Topic: Guitars and Mass...
