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Cay Gibson
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Macbeth or anyone,
How do you tell if you child is gifted musically? Any pointers? Any red flags waving?
Here's the story...
Chelsea took a months worth of piano lessons before Rita blew through leaving us a month without. Since we returned home, she's been practicing her scales and piddling at the piano but I haven't paid much mind...only enough to be able to tell her piano teacher that, "Yes, Chelsea has been diligently practicing." (The diligent parent, ya know.) 
Tonight, I was bleaching a shirt in the bathroom sink and heard a very familiar song being plucked from the piano keys. I listened a moment and heard it again. Going into the living room I fully expected to see Kayleigh at the piano. Of course, Kayleigh doesn't know any long pieces unless you count *My Favorite Things* from the *Sound of Music* and another lovely piece her cousin taught her. 
But it wasn't Kayleigh. It was Chelsea...the 8 year old. And the piece she was plucking out by ear was Beethovan's *Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee*.
So, naturally, I asked her if Ms. Mitzi had taught her that piece. She shook her head. No, she made it up herself. So I asked if she knew what piece she was playing...did she remember us listening to it on our *Music Master series* (which we have failed to listen to since the beginning of the calendar year). No, she didn't.
So I told her. So now she thinks I'm insinuating that she's not creative---and she's not very happy with me.  So I pulled the piece up on the computer and let her listen to it.
She might just be a person who can play pieces by ear. But I'm just wondering how to tell if there's real talent. We have lots of Cajun musicians in the family (though I am sadly not one of them  ---let's all be glad )...Jo-El Sonnier being one of them. Anyone remember him and his *Tear Stained Letter*?
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
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MacBeth
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Just off the top of my head, Cay, I would say that you should encourage Chelsea gently, and see what happens. Playing by ear is a clue--a very important clue--about her potential. More than that, her interest is a real clue. If she is doing this by herself, she is motivated, and that is a big part of talent. I see Libby who loves music, and other kids who are great technical musicians who hate music (or rather, being forced to play). There's talent, and there's passion. I think you can have one without the other, but I would rather have a kid who loves it...
Anyway, I suggest that you encourage, encourage, encourage....!! Encourage more! Ode to Joy is a piece that little ones love to play, BTW. Libby walked around at three with her new violin playing that over and over...it's the song that never ends  !
Because she is learning well by ear, exposure to music is important. Play a variety of excellent music for her, and she'll probably pick it up quickly. You have a teacher, so that's great, and I'm sure the teacher will guide her towards note reading and theory at appropriate times, as well as work with her on position and technique.
I hope it works out well, Cay. The gift of music in my house brings joy to all of us!
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MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
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TracyQ
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Same here as well. We've always encouraged the love of music, and the technical follows. Sarah is beginning guitar this year, and doing quite well! She loves to pluck out songs on the piano.
Her brother is playing the harmonica, after I brought one home from one of our girls day out shopping trips. I just want him to find something that HE loves to do. He's having fun. He's always thinking he's not good at anything. But he has an ear for music, and loves it.
Jake doesn't want to play any instrument, and is singing with our adult choir, in which my wonderful dh is the organist/choir director. We do this as a family. The kids aren't thrilled, but I can tell they enjoy singing with the adults, and are learning a ton, naturally through doing this. We're not pushing, though we haven't given them a choice.
We just provide the opportunities, and love music all together, and the talent is provoked, not pushed.
Marty's brother's children all play music, and they play very methodically, and are technically wonderful! None of them has passion. They sound stiff, and very technical, but with no love for it.
I'm very impressed with their ability, but I believe true talent comes from the heart and the passion, then perfecting that talent comes from practice. 
If you've ever seen a guitarist, one who loves playing rock and roll, for instance, they are constantly with their guitar in hand, with their fingers practicing, practicing, practicing, sometimes without even realizing they're doing it! They LOVE what they are doing, and they can't not do it. I've seen this with people who love to play the piano as well. Every time they walk by the piano, they absolutely MUST sit down and play,or play a few notes as they pass.
I see this in my husband! He loves playing. Technically, he's not the best. He's just fine, but not the best. But he has a passion for music, especially liturgical music. He's SO talented because he has technical background, and has practiced his whole life, but also because he has the passion and love for it as well. I think it's a beautiful balance of the two.
Jake will always love to sing, his voice is his instrument. But he has no interest in persuing it as a career. Being in choir has really been a blessing though! But that's OK that he doesn't have interest in playing an instrument. God has other plans for him.
Isn't it interesting to see how God gives that passion to some, and not to others???
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wife of Marty for 20 years, mom of 3 wonderful children (1 homeschool graduate, 1 12th grader, and a 9th grader),
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JennGM
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I would agree with MacBeth to cultivate the love and passion for the music....she has a gift. From my experience playing by ear can be a hindrance or a huge asset in musical training. We have that "gift" in some family members. When these different people took lessons, they had the tendency to just listen and then parrot back, instead of learning to read music and such. If you are hoping your child to grow into the music area, you don't want teachers that play a piece before the child reads it. I don't think many do that, but my mother had one, and so having 10 years of lessons she hardly learned anything! Make sure the teacher knows of her talent, to be able to direct her better.
I had a teacher in college that could match pitch. She had a good ear, and taught herself when she heard musical notes she could identify the note by name (A, D, etc.) ...so after this discipline her ear training and sight singing were phenomenal. I'd play a piece and without reading the music she would know what note I misplayed....or if someone hummed a tune she could write out the music.
Just my two cents....
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MacBeth
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jenngm67 wrote:
| From my experience playing by ear can be a hindrance or a huge asset in musical training. |
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I always find this line of thought interesting. I think it is imperative for a violinist to be able to play by ear, since the musician is responsible for the accuracy of the pitch, just like a vocalist. Is a pianist a very different thing? (I am not trying to be argumentative, but I am thinking "out loud"). Despite the common language, it seems that string musicians are not the same as others. Perhaps that's why early lessons work so well for strings.
Why is it different for music? Or maybe it isn't, but it is different for different instruments (this is a totally new thought for me ). Perhaps strings are so different that pedagogy is necessarily different.
Another thought:
Let's suppose (sorry Cay...taking over the thread ) a child is very good at talking and repeating what she hears. Is she less likely to become a good reader? How much more complicated is reading (words) than reading music? Or is music more complicated? Do parents and teachers put so much less emphasis on sight reading if a child plays well by ear that sight reading goes by the wayside? Can you imagine if we did that for reading? What if we taught reading like music...could we reasonably expect a child to make the right sounds for the right letters if he had never made the sounds independently? Or are the cases simply not parallel?
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JennGM
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MacBeth wrote:
jenngm67 wrote:
| From my experience playing by ear can be a hindrance or a huge asset in musical training. |
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I always find this line of thought interesting. I think it is imperative for a violinist to be able to play by ear, since the musician is responsible for the accuracy of the pitch, just like a vocalist. Is a pianist a very different thing? (I am not trying to be argumentative, but I am thinking "out loud"). Despite the common language, it seems that string musicians are not the same as others. Perhaps that's why early lessons work so well for strings. |
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First of all, my experience is in keyboard, so I tend to answer in that frame of mind. In a piano you don't have to hear the pitch...you have a key assigned to each note...there are no "searches" to find the right pitch...just the right "key" assigned to a note. (Forgive me...I'm not coming up with the correct musical terms today. It's been a VERY long week, especially long nights.  )
My saying that above is looking at further down the road if one was to take up more serious study of music. I don't even mean college, but just more serious study of the classics. It's easy to pick out one hand tune, or use a chord method to play songs for people to sing. As pieces get more complicated, the classical works, one might play by ear, but it seems that would be a VERY talented person (gifted) to pick up something like a 3 part invention by Bach.
How many notes can a violinist play at one time? I can't imagine it's as many as a pianist can do.
If concentrating one's learning just by ear, can you fall back on the musical theory questions when your "ear" fails you? We had a talented born-blind Chuckie Ibay at our high school. He could play the most complicated pieces just by ear...but he had a hard time getting into a music school because he had picked up bad habits, wrong techniques. He had a "Pop" version of classical pieces "Chuckie style." (He's been on EWTN)
MacBeth wrote:
| Why is it different for music? Or maybe it isn't, but it is different for different instruments (this is a totally new thought for me ). Perhaps strings are so different that pedagogy is necessarily different. |
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Probably. I've only been recently exposed to bits and pieces of Suzuki violin for my sister's children. I'm impressed...but the method is EXTREMELY different than my traditional piano learning. I've heard the Suzuki isn't as effective for piano, but I could be wrong there, too!
MacBeth wrote:
Another thought:
Let's suppose (sorry Cay...taking over the thread ) a child is very good at talking and repeating what she hears. Is she less likely to become a good reader? How much more complicated is reading (words) than reading music? Or is music more complicated? Do parents and teachers put so much less emphasis on sight reading if a child plays well by ear that sight reading goes by the wayside? Can you imagine if we did that for reading? What if we taught reading like music...could we reasonably expect a child to make the right sounds for the right letters if he had never made the sounds independently? Or are the cases simply not parallel? |
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I should probably approach this when I'm less punchy. I have several different waves of thoughts.
First...phonics comes into play with the reading. I believe in phonics. There will be sight words, but applied knowledge of phonics can increase the number of reading words.
The child learns to talk all sorts of words, but that seems almost separate from reading and writing. It takes a long time to read and learn to spell the words that a child can say. I can't imagine that my son will learn to read and spell "probably" for a long time, although at 2 it's in his vocabulary! but I digress....
My thinking is music education should be balanced. Ear Training is only one part of musical training. I have family members that are (were) talented in music, could play by ear. It was hard to learn conventional methods of music....and so they continued playing, but their way. My great-grandmother played only by ear, and she played the background music in movie theaters in Louisiana before the talking movies. She just improvised and played whenever.
For me, I'm not good at improvisation. I'm not a natural. I love to play, and I sight read well, but I can't play in a band or places where I have to improvise. This is where I wished I had more of that "playing by ear" talent.
I'll stop here with my random thoughts. I don't think I'm directly answering.
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Kathryn UK
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MacBeth, we have hit the point where this family has got the lot - piano, strings, woodwind and brass! - so I'll take a stab at a comparison. I think it is as individual as learning to read. Some children need to learn to read almost totally phonetically; others start with word recognition and then add in phonics. To read fluently you ultimately need both - word recognition for speed, and phonics to decipher the tough words. As long as you get both in the end, the main thing is to learn in the way that child's brain is wired.
When it comes to music, both myself and my dds are wired for reading notes rather than playing by ear. I'm the only string player, but I learned piano for 3 or 4 years before starting violin so was already reading music fairly fluently. Strings certainly require an ear that other families of instruments don't, at least in the early stages, but there is a difference between hearing pitch correctly and playing by ear. I can play in tune, and can play tunes by ear, but I'm never confident playing anything complex without being able to see the music. My elder dd at the point she started piano had pretty much no ear. She was never a potential string player! She is now developing an ear, but for her it has come with experience gained by playing. Translated into reading terms, she needed intensive phonics . She is a strong sight reader, but I've only recently heard her begin to pick out tunes for herself on the piano. However, she is an instinctive brass player. She just seems to "know" how to use her mouth and diaphragm to pitch notes, and I'm not sure how much ear goes into that. My younger dd has been teaching herself recorder over the summer and, true to family form, went straight to the music books, looked for the music she wanted to play, and learned to read the notes. For us that just seems to come much easier than trying to work them out for ourselves!
Jen's point about piano is bang on - you need an A, you hit the A on the keyboard. You don't need to listen to check the A is in tune. Wind and brass fall somewhere in between. I play flute, and when I play I'm listening for pitch and adjusting as I go, but to nothing like the same extent as when I play violin. On the violin, every note requires attention. On the flute, certain notes do. Most notes will pretty much play themselves, but some - mainly once you get up into the third octave - are sneaky and need subtle adjustments to get them in tune. A beginner flautist plays more like a pianist - if you want an A, just finger A and blow - because they don't have the technique to raise or lower the pitch by blowing. Technically, it is more difficult than simply moving finger position on a string instrument. Also a flute will tend to sound in tune with itself, and you only notice the finer points of tuning when playing in an ensemble. In the orchestra I play in the conductor will often spend time focusing on getting a particular wind / brass chord tuned, in a way he rarely needs to do with the strings - and this is despite the fact that the wind and brass players are generally better musicians than many of the string players. From listening to my dd with her trumpet, I think everything that applies to wind also applies to brass, but more so. I've noticed when playing with her that her low D tends to be "off", but it isn't sufficiently off for her to notice it when playing alone, and she simply doesn't yet have the technique to be able to adjust it (you kind of have to push notes up or down with a combination of mouth and diaphragm). Now a trombone would be interesting, as I imagine it would be somewhere between other wind / brass and strings - slide placement would presumably require careful listening and adjustment in the same way as strings.
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MacBeth
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jenngm67 wrote:
| First of all, my experience is in keyboard, so I tend to answer in that frame of mind. In a piano you don't have to hear the pitch...you have a key assigned to each note...there are no "searches" to find the right pitch...just the right "key" assigned to a note. (Forgive me...I'm not coming up with the correct musical terms today. It's been a VERY long week, especially long nights. ) |
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No worries, Jenn. And I think I knew that you are a keyboard person, and that's the brain I want to pick .
jenngm67 wrote:
| My saying that above is looking at further down the road if one was to take up more serious study of music. I don't even mean college, but just more serious study of the classics. It's easy to pick out one hand tune, or use a chord method to play songs for people to sing. As pieces get more complicated, the classical works, one might play by ear, but it seems that would be a VERY talented person (gifted) to pick up something like a 3 part invention by Bach. |
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Absolutely! I was wondering, though, if playing fun stuff for personal pleasure is enough sometimes? My mother's aunt never could read music, but she was the family pianist for every occasion, and could sit down and play all the popular pieces of her time. I do not know if she could play Bach, but she truly enjoyed herself. But if her parents had had the money (Irish immigrants with 8 kids are living in a one room tenement in Southie!!), would she have become a better musician (probably), but would she have been as satisfied? I guess that's a whole different discussion. 
jenngm67 wrote:
| How many notes can a violinist play at one time? I can't imagine it's as many as a pianist can do. |
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Good point, and one I had not considered, either. A violinist can play two notes at once (double stops). All chords are broken (unless the piece is "modern" and the bow is pressed very hard to play three strings). Indeed, a pianist can play WAY more notes at a time! An interesting observation...Libby used to drive her theory teacher crazy when she was eight by humming and whistling at the same time, in harmony...defying the "one note at a time" vocal rule.
jenngm67 wrote:
| If concentrating one's learning just by ear, can you fall back on the musical theory questions when your "ear" fails you? We had a talented born-blind Chuckie Ibay at our high school. He could play the most complicated pieces just by ear...but he had a hard time getting into a music school because he had picked up bad habits, wrong techniques. He had a "Pop" version of classical pieces "Chuckie style." (He's been on EWTN) |
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I have always wondered if blind classical pianists missed any notes...
But for the record, I have nothing against note reading! In fact, I insist on it (I am currently learning viola clef along with Paul, and it is driving me nuts...I told his teacher of my struggle and she laughed, and said she never learned it, she just transposes from treble clef in her head )! I just don't think that it is necessary for the three year old to learn to read music as she learns to play the violin, just as I do not think it is necessary for a toddler who is learning to talk well to learn to read at the same time.
jenngm67 wrote:
Probably. I've only been recently exposed to bits and pieces of Suzuki violin for my sister's children. I'm impressed...but the method is EXTREMELY different than my traditional piano learning. I've heard the Suzuki isn't as effective for piano, but I could be wrong there, too! |
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I would tent to agree. While my kids use the Suzuki books for the first few piano pieces (they are familiar), they use the book, learn to read the notes, and quickly abandon the Suzuki method. In fact, it has been my experience that piano kids (not just my kids) who began on violin are much better note readers than violin kids with no piano studies.
jenngm67 wrote:
| I should probably approach this when I'm less punchy. I have several different waves of thoughts. |
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No! You're good! this is just the conversation I want to have!
jenngm67 wrote:
| My thinking is music education should be balanced. Ear Training is only one part of musical training. I have family members that are (were) talented in music, could play by ear. It was hard to learn conventional methods of music....and so they continued playing, but their way. My great-grandmother played only by ear, and she played the background music in movie theaters in Louisiana before the talking movies. She just improvised and played whenever. |
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And was she, in your opinion, a musician? I am beginning to think there is a big, broad range of definitions of musician here...
jenngm67 wrote:
| For me, I'm not good at improvisation. I'm not a natural. I love to play, and I sight read well, but I can't play in a band or places where I have to improvise. This is where I wished I had more of that "playing by ear" talent. |
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Again, it has been my experience that Suzuki trained violinists (or cellists and violists) can easily improvise. I wonder, is it training or talent? I, too, wish I could just jump in and improvise!! Is it too late for us, Jenn? Can we be retrained? Or must we have been born with the gift?
jenngm67 wrote:
| I'll stop here with my random thoughts. I don't think I'm directly answering. |
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Not at all! Oh, I don't have the answers (if there are answers), so any conversation is enlightening. Hope you get some rest!
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MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
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Cay Gibson
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MacBeth/Jenn,
Have you seen this discovery?
Handwritten score of Beethoven's work discovered in library...
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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MacBeth
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Kathryn UK wrote:
| MacBeth, we have hit the point where this family has got the lot - piano, strings, woodwind and brass! - so I'll take a stab at a comparison. I think it is as individual as learning to read. Some children need to learn to read almost totally phonetically; others start with word recognition and then add in phonics. To read fluently you ultimately need both - word recognition for speed, and phonics to decipher the tough words. As long as you get both in the end, the main thing is to learn in the way that child's brain is wired. |
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I think I am beginning to feel this way too, that there is a great deal of individual variation. My kids have had no problem going from playing by ear to learning to sight read well, but as I have met more kids, I see real gaps in training.
Kathryn UK wrote:
| When it comes to music, both myself and my dds are wired for reading notes rather than playing by ear. I'm the only string player, but I learned piano for 3 or 4 years before starting violin so was already reading music fairly fluently. Strings certainly require an ear that other families of instruments don't, at least in the early stages, but there is a difference between hearing pitch correctly and playing by ear. I can play in tune, and can play tunes by ear, but I'm never confident playing anything complex without being able to see the music. |
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Very interesting. Is this an issue with memorization? I know that a great deal has been written on memorization in music, but I have not read much . A concert violinist, playing a concerto, must memorize the music. Is it the same for other instruments? How would you manage...just stay in the orchestra (not meaning to be insulting here , just trying to understand)?
Kathryn UK wrote:
| My elder dd at the point she started piano had pretty much no ear. She was never a potential string player! She is now developing an ear, but for her it has come with experience gained by playing. |
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How could you tell this? By listening to her sing, or through piano lessons? This might be an important point for Cay to know (sorry again, Cay, for hijacking the thread).
Kathryn UK wrote:
| Translated into reading terms, she needed intensive phonics . She is a strong sight reader, but I've only recently heard her begin to pick out tunes for herself on the piano. However, she is an instinctive brass player. She just seems to "know" how to use her mouth and diaphragm to pitch notes, and I'm not sure how much ear goes into that. |
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Fascinating! I suppose that's akin to a violinist playing with feeling and subtlety, rather than just sawing away (even when it is in tune--there is a big difference between players).
Kathryn UK wrote:
| My younger dd has been teaching herself recorder over the summer and, true to family form, went straight to the music books, looked for the music she wanted to play, and learned to read the notes. For us that just seems to come much easier than trying to work them out for ourselves! |
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Very interesting. I wish we could all exchange brain scans!
Kathryn UK wrote:
| On the violin, every note requires attention. On the flute, certain notes do. |
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I did not know that. I suppose I just assumed that all non-strings were alike in that you simply pressed the right keys or valves, or whatever, and the note came out.
Kathryn UK wrote:
| In the orchestra I play in the conductor will often spend time focusing on getting a particular wind / brass chord tuned, in a way he rarely needs to do with the strings - and this is despite the fact that the wind and brass players are generally better musicians than many of the string players. |
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Yes, that is the curse of the string section , but I am intrigued by the conductor's time spent with the wind and brass. Is he just more sensitive to those tones? Perhaps he has written off the strings as hopeless. I have a friend who was assigned to teach music in a local middle school. When he saw that he had strings in the orchestra, he walked out (he is a professional trumpeter).
Kathryn UK wrote:
| Now a trombone would be interesting, as I imagine it would be somewhere between other wind / brass and strings - slide placement would presumably require careful listening and adjustment in the same way as strings. |
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Funny...I know woman who plays viola and trombone, and she said that it is more like a string than other brass.
Thanks for enlightening me. I just found out (from Libby, who is taking advanced conducting this year) that the other instruments don't even play orchestral music with the same key signatures as the strings...so now I am lost in another world of thought. Why?
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MacBeth in NY
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MacBeth
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Yeah...isn't that nutty? Makes me want to look in people's attics. I have a friend who just found a $25,000 violin in her mother's wine cellar.
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MacBeth
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MacBeth wrote:
In fact, it has been my experience that piano kids (not just my kids) who began on violin are much better note readers than violin kids with no piano studies.
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What I meant to say here, is that kids who study piano are often better sight readers, even if violin is the first instrument. Many string kids benefit greatly from learning piano to reinforce note reading, especially if it has not been taught at the appropriate time with the violin.
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MacBeth wrote:
MacBeth wrote:
In fact, it has been my experience that piano kids (not just my kids) who began on violin are much better note readers than violin kids with no piano studies.
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What I meant to say here, is that kids who study piano are often better sight readers, even if violin is the first instrument. Many string kids benefit greatly from learning piano to reinforce note reading, especially if it has not been taught at the appropriate time with the violin. |
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Thanks for clarifying that... I would agree with that observation.
It's similar to having a good solid grammar background. That makes it easier to study other languages (for me it does!). But back to the original questions posed, there are different approaches to learning languages, like immersion, so one hears the language and starts speaking it, and later learns the grammatical side. So also with music!
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jenngm67 wrote:
| I would agree with MacBeth to cultivate the love and passion for the music.... |
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Whoops! Reading over the thread and I didn't give credit to TracyQ
TracyQ wrote:
| I'm very impressed with their ability, but I believe true talent comes from the heart and the passion, then perfecting that talent comes from practice. |
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Sorry about that Tracy!
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Kathryn UK wrote:
| I think it is as individual as learning to read. Some children need to learn to read almost totally phonetically; others start with word recognition and then add in phonics. To read fluently you ultimately need both - word recognition for speed, and phonics to decipher the tough words. As long as you get both in the end, the main thing is to learn in the way that child's brain is wired. |
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Well said! Thanks for your post Kathryn!! It's just splendid and crystal clear.
Quote:
| When it comes to music, both myself and my dds are wired for reading notes rather than playing by ear. <snip!> My younger dd has been teaching herself recorder over the summer and, true to family form, went straight to the music books, looked for the music she wanted to play, and learned to read the notes. For us that just seems to come much easier than trying to work them out for ourselves! |
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You just described me to a "T".
BTW, what a talented family you have!
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MacBeth
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Another thought...
If you are wired to play by note reading, how do you add that extra something--the feeling, emotion, expression-- into the music? When a composer writes "with expression" in the music, how does that translate for someone dependant on sight reading? Are these hard things to teach? Can they be taught?
My ds is very quiet, and almost Vulcan in his lack of expression, and this translates into all of his music, but even more so when he is sight reading. He shows way more expression (still, not a lot ) when he knows a piece. Any hints?
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MacBeth wrote:
| Absolutely! I was wondering, though, if playing fun stuff for personal pleasure is enough sometimes? |
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MacBeth wrote:
| And was she, in your opinion, a musician? I am beginning to think there is a big, broad range of definitions of musician here... |
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I DO think that playing for personal enjoyment CAN be enough. But that's the personal decision of the family. We want to offer sports and music to our children. After a certain amount of time, the child will have to show us what his/her individual talents and interests are to cultivate them further.
Are they musicians? You know, that's a good question. When I have put so much blood, sweat and tears into my music, it's hard for me to classify playing by ear as a musician, but that's a biased look. I think there's room for all different kinds!
jenngm67 wrote:
| For me, I'm not good at improvisation. I'm not a natural. I love to play, and I sight read well, but I can't play in a band or places where I have to improvise. This is where I wished I had more of that "playing by ear" talent. |
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MacBeth wrote:
| Again, it has been my experience that Suzuki trained violinists (or cellists and violists) can easily improvise. I wonder, is it training or talent? I, too, wish I could just jump in and improvise!! Is it too late for us, Jenn? Can we be retrained? Or must we have been born with the gift? |
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It's probably too late for me, unless I learn some new things when my son starts his training.
Can I hijack this thread further? I always thought piano first in education, but now viewing my nieces I'm really impressed with the Suzuki violin...especially at the young age. Is it worth the time and money? Is that a good approach? When would the piano lessons happen if I was to take that approach?
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MacBeth wrote:
If you are wired to play by note reading, how do you add that extra something--the feeling, emotion, expression-- into the music? When a composer writes "with expression" in the music, how does that translate for someone dependant on sight reading? Are these hard things to teach? Can they be taught?
My ds is very quiet, and almost Vulcan in his lack of expression, and this translates into all of his music, but even more so when he is sight reading. He shows way more expression (still, not a lot ) when he knows a piece. Any hints? |
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Well...there are different stages (for me) to sight reading. There is the first "cold" reading. Many times, yes, it's a little devoid of expression, more just getting the notes and rhythm down (but I'm not that good. Kathryn probably can do this better!). But after reading a piece a few times, or having read it before and bringing it out later I can still "read" the piece and bring out musical interpretation. But that's is still "knowing" the piece...but not to the point of memorization.
But what level or type of pieces are you referring to? In the study of music, different periods have certain interpretations or expressions that are typical to the period. And the actual music should have the "expressions" written into the music....and I don't think one should try to improve Bach or Beethoven. But Christmas Carols, Gershwin and other sing alongs there's room for interpretation.
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MacBeth
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jenngm67 wrote:
| Can I hijack this thread further? I always thought piano first in education, but now viewing my nieces I'm really impressed with the Suzuki violin...especially at the young age. Is it worth the time and money? Is that a good approach? When would the piano lessons happen if I was to take that approach? |
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I am totally biased here, but I would say yes, lessons are worth it...with this caveat: It depends on the child!
I think I have come to the conclusion that piano should almost always be taught traditionally. Yet, I know a 4 year old who does not read music who is a piano-playing master. I saw him play at Steinway Hall last year, and the teacher picked him up at the waist, and before she had even positioned him at the keyboard, reached out his little hands and started playing. Amazing!
Suzuki training has done something interesting to the world of music. There are way more talented kids out there than anyone ever realized, let's say, in the days of young Mozart, when his father showed him off to the world. These days, there are plenty of kids who can play like that (or what we suppose was "like that" as we have no recordings). Alan Jemison (see his website had an interesting observation, though. He asks, how many great musical talents can write music like Mozart could? Neither Perlman, nor Ma, nor many of the Suzuki-trained kids...Perhaps both reading and writing music are going to the wayside in the wake of Suzuki training, unless someone (a parent or great teacher) is there to make sure it does not.
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MacBeth wrote:
Kathryn UK wrote:
| I can play in tune, and can play tunes by ear, but I'm never confident playing anything complex without being able to see the music. |
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Very interesting. Is this an issue with memorization? I know that a great deal has been written on memorization in music, but I have not read much . A concert violinist, playing a concerto, must memorize the music. Is it the same for other instruments? How would you manage...just stay in the orchestra (not meaning to be insulting here , just trying to understand)? |
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Absolutely! I'm perfectly happy in the orchestra . It could be an issue with memorisation, which is definitely NOT my strong point. It takes me forever to memorise prayers. I've currently got the end of the guardian angel prayer mixed up in my brain, and my dds keep having to correct me . I'm a very visual learner, and a terrible auditory one. I could only process college lectures by writing extensive notes because then I could see what the lecturer was saying. I have to have absolute mastery of a piece before I can memorise it, and even then I don't feel secure. Mostly I'm just playing for fun so I never get to that mastery stage.
Kathryn UK wrote:
| My elder dd at the point she started piano had pretty much no ear. |
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MacBeth wrote:
| How could you tell this? By listening to her sing, or through piano lessons? This might be an important point for Cay to know (sorry again, Cay, for hijacking the thread). |
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Mainly from singing. She couldn't sing in tune (whereas my younger dd always could), and had absolutely no awareness that she was out of tune. Also, she wouldn't hear a wrong note. Now she can do both.
Kathryn UK wrote:
| She just seems to "know" how to use her mouth and diaphragm to pitch notes, and I'm not sure how much ear goes into that. |
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MacBeth wrote:
| Fascinating! I suppose that's akin to a violinist playing with feeling and subtlety, rather than just sawing away (even when it is in tune--there is a big difference between players). |
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No. It doesn't tie in with feeling and expression. It is a technical facility - more like just instinctively knowing how to hold a bow and place one's fingers on the strings.
Kathryn UK wrote:
| In the orchestra I play in the conductor will often spend time focusing on getting a particular wind / brass chord tuned, in a way he rarely needs to do with the strings |
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MacBeth wrote:
| Yes, that is the curse of the string section , but I am intrigued by the conductor's time spent with the wind and brass. Is he just more sensitive to those tones? Perhaps he has written off the strings as hopeless. |
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We aren't quite that bad . And the conductor is a cellist so finds it easier to work with strings. Now, this is stretching my technical knowledge to its limits, but I think part of the problem is due to strings being tuned in fifths and wind and brass being tuned to an absolute scale. Therefore a (correct) A on a violin will be marginally, but audibly, different from a (correct) A on a flute or clarinet. You may then also find that a bassoon is being played right at the bottom of its range, while a clarinet is being played mid-range and a flute high, leaving them all slightly out of kilter with each other. Then you get other factors like French horns that are notoriously difficult to play in tune.
MacBeth wrote:
| Thanks for enlightening me. I just found out (from Libby, who is taking advanced conducting this year) that the other instruments don't even play orchestral music with the same key signatures as the strings...so now I am lost in another world of thought. Why? |
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They are tuned in different keys. Trumpets and clarinets are B flat instruments (their written C sounds as a B flat). I suppose the written notes are as they are in order to make them simpler to play - the "open" notes on a trumpet are written C, G, C, E', G', C', which is comfortable. Then horns are in F (though bizarrely, they sound about half a semitone out, and are adjusted by the player sticking their fist up the bell), and tubas are often in E flat. Some of these instruments are also made in different keys. A good clarinettist will usually have an A clarinet as well as a B flat one, to use for awkward orchestral keys, and you also get soprano trumpets in E flat. Poor beginner trumpeters often find themselves having to play with lots of sharps as most easy orchestral pieces are written in keys that are easy for strings. A comfortable key of D for strings turns into a nasty four sharps for clarinets and trumpets.
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4Real Forums : The Arts in the Everyday
Topic: Musical Talent vs. Playing by Ear
