| Author | |
pumpkinmom
Forum All-Star
Joined: March 28 2012
Location: Missouri
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1028
|
| Posted: Oct 23 2012 at 1:13am | IP Logged
|
 |
|
. . . . to Shining Sea? I love this text! It reads nice and has great stories. I hate that there is so much detail! I lose my kids. I had to stop reading today and remind them we were talking about pirates and that they should really be into this reading.  I cut back our readings, but that isn't helping and it's taking way too long to get through a chapter. We are also using living books in between chapters on subjects of interest. My boys just don't appreciate this book. I know my youngest is not in the recommended grade level and I really just consider him listening in at this point. My oldest refuses to read it alone so it is a read aloud.
Dh read a section out loud to the boys one evening and said he was overwhelmed with all the details, but thought it was still a good book and we should continue trying to get through it. Well, three weeks later I feel like we have gave it all we had and it's time to put it aside. But, I do love reading this book! 
Any thoughts?
__________________
Cassie
Homeschooling my little patch of Ds-14 and Ds-10
Tending the Pumpkin Patch
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MaryM
Board Moderator
Joined: Feb 11 2005
Location: Colorado
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13104
|
| Posted: Oct 23 2012 at 3:03am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I don't consider it a read aloud type book. It is still a text though nicely done, as you mention. And I know I would probably lose mine as well if reading aloud. If your oldest won't read on own well, could you just approach that from a different angle. Say, instead of assigning reading(chapter, pages, etc.) give him specific information he needs to look for and tell you about. Or assign a project that he would need to read through sections to complete, instead of straight reading.
__________________
Mary M. in Denver
Our Domestic Church
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
stellamaris
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 26 2009
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2732
|
| Posted: Oct 23 2012 at 6:08am | IP Logged
|
|
|
To get through a denser text, such as From Sea to Shining Sea, I would really focus on consistent narration. You will not be able to cover as much material, but your children will both learn and retain more, and they will learn as well how to approach a text.
Here's what we do for our history text:
Before actually reading the material, briefly review the previous lesson, and then introduce any new words/ideas/background knowledge needed to understand the selection. If the text refers to any geographical location(s), locate it(them) on a map. Then,
1) Read a smallish portion (usually 1-3 paragraphs). I only rarely read aloud. Usually, I have the children take turns reading the material. Sometimes, I'll ask them to read silently.
2) After reading once, ask the children to narrate the selection.
3) Read another portion. Narrate that. Continue this read/narrate process for the time allotted for the subject.
4) Wrap up the lesson by asking a "thinking question" about the material you have covered. This can be a bit tough with a straight-up history text, but it is possible. For example, you might ask something like, "What can you tell me about the character of George Washington?" or "How did the Pilgrims show courage and fortitude?" If there is a lot of material, you might use this time to review it and write the highlights on a white board. I usually try to get the children to remember what they have read by putting up the main idea on the board and then having them fill in the details. For example, while studying the Middle Ages, one day we read about Roman contributions to Western Europe. So, I put the title "Roman Contributions" on the board and four bullet points (or so!), then I asked the children to tell me the four points. When they couldn't remember one of them, we went back and looked in the text for it.
5) Once a week, have the children write their narrations or add a drawing/diagram to their history lesson book. When assigning a topic for a written narration, keep it very narrow at first. Don't have them write about George Washington, but rather about something more specific such as the winter at Valley Forge or an account of his childhood. Younger children and new narrators need a more defined topic. I only have the boys write for about 20 minutes, then we wrap it up.
FYI, we have History 3 times a week plus about 20 minutes for the Book of Centuries on Fridays. Two of the lessons are reading/narrating, one is written narration of previously read material. Our history lessons are 25 minutes long.
As a general rule, you want to engage the children's minds and encourage them to pay attention. The best way to do that is to help them take responsibility for their own learning by requiring narration.
Also, note how important the text is in this entire undertaking and be sure your history text is not just a collection of dry details, but includes inspiring accounts of human persons and their contributions/experiences. I haven't looked at From Sea to Shining Sea in several years, so I don't know if it would be considered a "living text" in the sense of containing inspiring ideas to encourage a child to thoughtfulness.
__________________
In Christ,
Caroline
Wife to  dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
Flowing Streams
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
SeaStar
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 16 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 9068
|
| Posted: Oct 23 2012 at 7:49am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I was thinking of getting this book as a spine to use for *me*, so I could read up on topics that we were studying and be able to clarify or present material accurately.
Also, we'd use it as a reference book to answer the questions that always pop up while reading our living books.
I understand that it also has nice pictures and stories...
So I wouldn't use it as a read aloud or really ask my dc to read it (unless they wanted to), but I still like the idea of having a good Catholic reference for our history studies.
Does that seem plausible?
__________________
Melinda, mom to ds ('02) and dd ('04)
SQUILT Music Appreciation
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mackfam
Board Moderator
Non Nobis
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: Alabama
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14656
|
| Posted: Oct 23 2012 at 8:07am | IP Logged
|
|
|
SeaStar wrote:
I was thinking of getting this book as a spine to use for *me*, so I could read up on topics that we were studying and be able to clarify or present material accurately.
Also, we'd use it as a reference book to answer the questions that always pop up while reading our living books.
I understand that it also has nice pictures and stories...
So I wouldn't use it as a read aloud or really ask my dc to read it (unless they wanted to), but I still like the idea of having a good Catholic reference for our history studies.
Does that seem plausible? |
|
|
Yes.
I had the same experience pumpkinmom had when I tried to use From Sea to Shining Sea several years ago. I think the book is well written and very well done overall, but loaded with so many details that a young student gets bogged down in them. I think I tried to use it when my oldest was in 4th grade - and that was 7 years ago. We approached the book from a variety of angles but she just could.not.narrate. Since my daughter was generally a very good narrator I began to really take notice and that's when I learned that there are books that act as a spine that are written in a more living, engaging way. And unfortunately, I didn't find From Sea to Shining Sea to be one of them. It is a text that is so loaded with details that there aren't enough ideas for them to hang on, making the book extremely difficult to narrate. Juxtapose that with This Country of Ours by H. E. Marshall (which is just one example I've found of a living spine for American history). This book is EXTREMELY meaty!! It requires careful attention, slow reading and frequent narration - but it is full of rich writing and ideas and my children can narrate it.
All that to say, I don't think your observations are off, pumpkinmom! Sea to Shining Sea was one of my very first lessons in all that glitters is not living. It's a lovely book, well written, and I was able to pick up a few things from it (which is why I think Melinda's idea would work), but in the end, I pulled the book off our shelves and really learned to look at books that I use as a spine very critically, looking to see if they are written in a living, engaging way.
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: Oct 23 2012 at 8:20am | IP Logged
|
|
|
So did you use a spine after that? And which did you use?
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mackfam
Board Moderator
Non Nobis
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: Alabama
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14656
|
| Posted: Oct 23 2012 at 8:55am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Did I use a spine after what, Jenn? After I shelved From Sea to Shining Sea?
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
|
| Posted: Oct 23 2012 at 8:58am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Mackfam wrote:
| Did I use a spine after what, Jenn? After I shelved From Sea to Shining Sea? |
|
|
Yes, after you shelved it. Sorry for being so short and cryptic. I'm just wondering if you then decided to use a variety of sources, or did you find a spine replacement.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mackfam
Board Moderator
Non Nobis
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: Alabama
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14656
|
| Posted: Oct 23 2012 at 9:23am | IP Logged
|
|
|
After I shelved that text after struggling with it, I did not add another spine. I stayed exclusively with living books and working on our Book of Centuries for that year. There is an abundance of age appropriate living book choices for that period of history, and the turnaround in our year was startling for me - for all of us! My daughter's reading took off, she was eager to get to her history reading, and her narrations began to unfold deeply and with great detail again. Before shelving the text, she was stressed trying to cram details into her head to try to regurgitate and it had the effect of being difficult, complicated and burdensome. This stress crept into all the other parts of our day. Going to living books and narrations lifted a huge weight for us! Our days became simple, straightforward and unburdened. It made a huge impression on me, and I have always credited that experience as one of my biggest lessons in stepping into living, worthy books with great faith.
I don't find spines (even worthy ones) to be necessary or integral and don't always use them every year. And in fact, if a child is getting bogged down in reading, even if the spine is worthy, it's the first thing I let go.
The Book of Centuries is what functions as our "spine" - the glue that cements all our reading together is right there. In addition to having a child keep a Book of Centuries, since that lesson 7 years ago, I have always relied on a good timeline for myself as my "spine" in order to give me a skeleton-like lay of the land for a period of history. I use Bernard Grun's Timetables of History. The more children I had, and the more I had going on, the more I began to rely on a succinct and efficient way to look through history for myself. Grun's book functions perfectly for me in that way, and now that I have older children, they too refer to this book for a quick reference to see all the different things going on in a period of history.
If I had to list one essential spine for all grades including myself and were forced to get rid of all the rest of the books which function as "spines" on my shelves, I could do so with ease. I'd keep Grun's Timetables of History and use living, worthy literature and be very content.
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
pumpkinmom
Forum All-Star
Joined: March 28 2012
Location: Missouri
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1028
|
| Posted: Oct 23 2012 at 11:15am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I am so glad to know I'm not the only one!  Back to just living books! I guess I will use the book as a timeline to stay on track. I actually may read it for myself.  Thanks everyone for all the wonderful information!
__________________
Cassie
Homeschooling my little patch of Ds-14 and Ds-10
Tending the Pumpkin Patch
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
SallyT
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 08 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2489
|
| Posted: Oct 23 2012 at 1:01pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
No, you're not alone. I tried it with two different children -- a bust both times.
I'm doing U.S. history this year with my 4th and 3rd graders and using Genevieve Foster's George Washington's World and Abraham Lincoln's World as our spines* as we move forward. The kids each have independent reading to immerse them further and more imaginatively in the time periods we're covering, though we're finding our spine texts to be really lively and engaging.
Timelines are really helpful, though I've also found that as kids get older and pass through the same material again at higher levels, the narratives do seem to sort themselves out chronologically pretty naturally.
Sally
eta: I should add that I'm using these as morning read-alouds. Then the kids read further on their own, in age-appropriate historical fiction.
__________________
Castle in the Sea
Abandon Hopefully
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CrunchyMom
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 03 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6385
|
| Posted: Oct 23 2012 at 2:05pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
SallyT wrote:
No, you're not alone. I tried it with two different children -- a bust both times.
I'm doing U.S. history this year with my 4th and 3rd graders and using Genevieve Foster's George Washington's World and Abraham Lincoln's World as our spines* as we move forward. The kids each have independent reading to immerse them further and more imaginatively in the time periods we're covering, though we're finding our spine texts to be really lively and engaging.
Timelines are really helpful, though I've also found that as kids get older and pass through the same material again at higher levels, the narratives do seem to sort themselves out chronologically pretty naturally.
Sally
eta: I should add that I'm using these as morning read-alouds. Then the kids read further on their own, in age-appropriate historical fiction. |
|
|
Are you using older editions of these books or the newer "expanded" editions?
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
stellamaris
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 26 2009
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2732
|
| Posted: Oct 23 2012 at 4:06pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
We are using This Country of Ours, but I have to say I actually like "spines". Must be a remnant of my happy school days, ! I know I'm in the minority here! However, I do find in history particularly that a spine helps fill in many gaps, provide background information, and act as a sort of scaffolding for knowledge gleaned from living books. A historical novel can give such a rich view of a period or of an individual historical figure, but it is difficult to get a broad overview and the sense of the sweep of history just from focused historical stories (focused on one person or time, that is).
So, we do use spines, although not FSTSS. I like Eggleston and Marshall, but I try to supplement them with Catholic information, as neither one really discusses the Spanish missions and the contributions of the Catholics to this country.
__________________
In Christ,
Caroline
Wife to dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
Flowing Streams
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
SallyT
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 08 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2489
|
| Posted: Oct 24 2012 at 8:29am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Lindsay -- Mine are the newer ones. I haven't had the old ones to compare with, but we are really liking the books we have. Actually, my kids prefer Augustus Caesar's World, which we're using concurrently for "Old-World History," but we all like George Washington's World, which we're in right now, too.
I also like having some kind of spine to give us some chronological touchpoints, though if I had to choose, I would definitely err on the side of literature. My older kids did history more or less entirely via fiction at this stage, and they're both extremely historically literate now. Still, I find what Caroline says is true -- I do want to body over the sense of a bigger picture, even as the kids immerse themselves deeply in the world of a given novel. I find that both these dynamics are important, and that they speak to each other in very rich ways.
Sally
PS: I don't recommend Genevieve Foster unreservedly -- I understand that her books dealing with the Middle Ages/Renaissance (eg World of Columbus and Sons) are problematic from a Catholic point of view. But the books we are using are very good.
__________________
Castle in the Sea
Abandon Hopefully
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Pilgrim
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 28 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1286
|
| Posted: Oct 24 2012 at 11:44am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I shelved From Sea to Shining Sea, as well! Just too much info each chapter, interesting, but too much for this level, and didn't find the quizzes to be that great. We like the Land of Our Lady series much more. We used Founders of Freedom(book 1 in the series) last year, and liked it. Dd was able to retain the info and do fine on the quizzes. This year we decided to try From Sea to Shining Sea this year as it was part of the Lesson Plan with CHC and I thought it would be easier to not have to write in another text. However, by week 3 or 4 it was just becoming obvious we did not like the text as well as the Land of Our Lady texts. So we are now using Bearers of Freedom(book 2 in the LoOL series), along with lots of great living books from the library, not necessarily at the same time frame of history as the text book, but as fun historical knowledge builders. 
__________________
Wife 2 my bf, g14,b8,g&b6,g4,g3,g1 1/2,4 ^i^
St. Clare Heirloom Seeds coupon 4Real 20% off
St. Clare Audio
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CatholicMommy
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2007
Location: Indiana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1254
|
| Posted: Oct 26 2012 at 7:09pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I do not personally care for STSS but for very different reasons.
I also do not like Marshall's book for similar reasons.
Reason being FAR TOO BIAS.
There will always be bias to be worked through, but I want a good overview with as little rigamorole as possible. Then use a variety of shorter "living books" on select topics to fill in those details.
The spine for me is what gives an overview, a few enticing details, presents questions that inspire the listener to want to do more research, and as much as possible does not "change" with newly discovered information.
We are using Eggleston's book, and it is much better than I anticipated as far as bias goes. We can work through the "Indians" being "savages" and question "why did the Indians suddenly tire of the white men?" And we can work through the "discovery" by Columbus, because we already know this book was written at the end of the 1800s and we have already studied the earliest discoveries - so we know some of the bias coming in. What is nice is that the book does not GLORIFY Columbus, but states the facts without judging. There are nice sideboxes and pencil drawings.
And then we have the Reader's Guide to fill in the greater details.
Blog post about it all:
http://montessoritrails.blogspot.com/2012/10/american-histor y.html
__________________
Garden of Francis
HS Elementary Montessori Training
Montessori Nuggets
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
hsmom
Forum Pro
Joined: Aug 24 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 253
|
| Posted: Nov 05 2012 at 6:24am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I am so glad I found saw this thread. We are having trouble getting through FSTSS. My dd does not like it. I will most likely use it for research and less of a spine. I bookmarked This Country of Ours. Can this be used as a spine for high school? I saw where Eggleston's book is listed as being for 12+, but did not see an age range for This Country of Ours.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mackfam
Board Moderator
Non Nobis
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: Alabama
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14656
|
| Posted: Nov 05 2012 at 6:57am | IP Logged
|
|
|
hsmom wrote:
| I am so glad I found saw this thread. We are having trouble getting through FSTSS. My dd does not like it. I will most likely use it for research and less of a spine. I bookmarked This Country of Ours. Can this be used as a spine for high school? I saw where Eggleston's book is listed as being for 12+, but did not see an age range for This Country of Ours. |
|
|
What age/grade are you trying to work with?
Are you looking for overall history, or just American History?
Were you using FSTSS with a high schooler?
TCOO would be too simple for a high schooler, although I could see using it anytime in elementary or even early middle.
I'll share some thoughts on book ideas after you let me know the age/grade you're looking to work with.
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
CatholicMommy
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2007
Location: Indiana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1254
|
| Posted: Nov 05 2012 at 8:23am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Eggleston's book is appropriate as reading material for ages 8 and up for sure. I would be hesitant to go younger than that, ONLY because it is an older book and some of the information isn't "as accurate" (ie focusing on Columbus discovering; and no mention of any earlier "white men" - no discussion of how the Native Americans could have come here) === these are all issues that can readily be addressed with an older child (3rd/4th grade and up).
BUT combined with the questions at the end of each chapter, I would definitely say it is very good for middle school and high school as well - as a spine for sure.
__________________
Garden of Francis
HS Elementary Montessori Training
Montessori Nuggets
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
hsmom
Forum Pro
Joined: Aug 24 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 253
|
| Posted: Nov 05 2012 at 8:25am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I am looking for American History. Dd (14 yo) is technically a HS'er, but I try to find things that can be used for high school that are pretty easy. I had hoped that since FSTSS was for 5th through 9th, it would be possible to use it, but dd does not like it. Truth be told she may not like any textbook. I could use it as a spine and just read it to her and make sure we have good living books to go along. I try to use the easiest books from the MODG history reading list.
Any other suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
Forum Locked) 
4Real Forums : Across Time and Place
Topic: Anyone not happy with From Sea . . . .
