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mama2many
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| Posted: Dec 15 2010 at 3:15pm | IP Logged
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OK, so we're enrolled in Seton (as my 900 other questions begin)
and I have a 4th grader that HATES MATH, she gets concepts, but she hates it.
She grumbles, so I am trying to work with her, just asking for 15-20 min a day of 100% best effort in her Seton book..
Is there another more "fun" math for a "big" kid? One my husband can SEE her progress??
What's the difference between Seton and Saxon?? Why are the Saxon levels written 5/4? I'm so confused!!
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Krystin
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guitarnan
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| Posted: Dec 15 2010 at 3:36pm | IP Logged
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I've never used Seton, but I've used Saxon, Math-U-See and Teaching Textbooks, so I can talk about those.
Basically, there are two approaches to math - sequential and spiral. Sequential is chapters dedicated to specific concepts (addition, division, fractions) with little review of previous concepts. Spiral reviews every single day - a lesson will introduce a concept (e.g. reducing fractions) and have a few practice problems plus a bunch of review problems from previous lessons/chapters.
Saxon and TT are spiral. This can drive some children nuts if they have used only sequential materials, but it can build confidence in students because they "already know" the material and do just a few "new" things each day.
We had good success with Math-U-See but switched to TT for older grades. You can buy math manipulatives for use with Math-U-See, which adds to the "fun" factor and also plays to different learning styles. You can also buy a DVD for MUS or a CD-ROM for TT with all the lectures on it, saving you the difficulty of teaching something you don't feel comfortable with.
All three programs (Saxon, MUS, TT) have tests, so you can easily measure mastery.
You can't escape daily practice or memorization of math facts. The only way to make math facts fun (at my house anyway) is via a math computer game. Flash cards work, but most kids don't find them fun.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Dec 15 2010 at 3:56pm | IP Logged
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I'm loathe to encourage folks to "dump" a program...mainly because I am stingy and guarded with our family money and even if something doesn't work "as written", if I challenge myself, I can often work around, or outside the box to make a program work for me. It does take a bit of work, but doesn't everything worthwhile?
Challenge yourself to get creative with this! I like to do this by asking myself a lot of questions to try to get to the heart of why something isn't working...
** Why does she hate math?
** Is it truly the book?
** Does she dislike the time spent?
** Is she not understanding a concept?
** Would time be better spent a little at a time solidifying understanding of a concept?
** Can you break the book up differently?
** Can you circle problems for her to work - problems mainly from the lesson? Challenging problems?
** How about working through 2 - 3 problems together every day? There is something about a dry erase board and a kid - mine love it! And my students that find some math concepts challenging love it when they get a jar full of colorful dry erase markers and we sit down together to work out a few problems!
** Is your math program beginning to approach abstract questions? Some 4th graders aren't ready for that!
** Is this a confidence problem? (Work on solidifying math concepts)
** Is this a boredom problem? (Provide more challenging angles to work on)
** Is this a learning styles problem? (Is your dd a hands on learner working in a boring math workbook? Simple fix --> let her solve some of her problems with hands on manipulatives --> beans, counters, trays, small bowls you pick up from thrift stores...all of these work well! You might read a little about Montessori's approach to math as well.)
4th grade math is about solidifying basic math concepts - addition, subtraction, multiplication. And the introduction of division (which shouldn't be done until the other three are solid, in my opinion). You don't NEED a math book for that. Really. You don't. There are some wonderful worksheet makers online that you can build practice worksheets from. There are also fantastic online resources for math online. I'll link my favorite down below!
Perhaps reading some books so that she can begin to visualize these nebulous concepts might help. One thing I noticed with my very first 4th grader is that she really hit a major wall when curriculum/questions were directed at her in a more abstract way. She was a young 4th grader and just not capable of that kind of abstract thinking yet and it resulted in a melt down of epic proportions. Consider the kind of questions your math text is asking - looking for unknown values, etc. While some students have a natural grasp of these ideas from an early age, some students find themselves overwhelmed IN GENERAL with a move toward more abstract lines of thought/questioning with reading comprehension questions (which I avoid like the plague!!!) like, "how did you feel about these characters?", "what do you think character x was thinking?"  Anyway, if she might be overwhelmed with abstract questions coming at her from other places in her curriculum, I would also expect to see extreme frustration in the area of math as well. In which case, I'd just pull back to solid, concrete content work for a little while.
AND>>>> when Saxon writes a number behind a text it means this --> the content in this book is appropriate for an...average X grader (or an) advanced X grader. So Saxon 5/4 is for an average 5th grader or an advanced 4th grader. There is much overlap in the Saxon books though, so if they are used one can almost always skip a few with no problems.
A few favorite resources for you to consider:
** Math Is Fun website - lots of fun games to check out here! Consider a Friday math game day! It lightens the math load and kids learn much through math games! Logic, strategy, and math games all help a child visualize mathematically! Don't discount them as a valuable part of the curriculum!!
** Math Worksheet Maker - free site. If you have to put that text away for a bit while you try to figure out what to do...why not just fall back on these for a bit. Straightforward. Free. And it will serve to review or solidify math concepts which should aid in confidence.
** Living Math Classics at Penny Gardner's site. Some of these could be read alouds for the two of you which would probably go a long way toward healing a fractured relationship that centers around the dreaded word: Math.
** Math page at MacBeth's Charlotte Mason website - wonderful ideas here!
** Living Math
** Math Drills - free math worksheet maker.
And...with Christmas coming up...why not take a look at some fun math games to put under the tree. There are so many to choose from!
I know this is a lot...and I hope it isn't overwhelming! My hope was to challenge you to really stomp down the reason behind the math HATE. Once you find the reason, you can begin to address solutions that either....add in a little more life and living to your math...or...address problems she may be having with math that aren't readily/obviously apparent on the surface. Kids often say, "I hate math." They aren't specific as to the why. It would be so much easier if they could just say, "This is moving too fast. I still don't understand all my multiplication facts and I don't get how 9 groups of 6 is 54 and this black/white page isn't showing me." 
Good luck! Let us know if we can narrow this a bit more for you!!
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Jen Mackintosh
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mama2many
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| Posted: Dec 20 2010 at 9:37am | IP Logged
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what she hates about math is the lack of a gray area... she's a perfectionist and hates the fact that if one thing in math is off the whole thing is off. kwim?
So, I was looking at Teaching Textbooks, anyone have any reviews?? I'm reading the review on Cathy Duffy's site now..but I would love to hear a MOm's POV! 
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Krystin
wife to Kevin
mama to
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J (12/01)
K (6/06)
J (7/08)
A (7/10)
C (11/12)
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guitarnan
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| Posted: Dec 20 2010 at 9:44am | IP Logged
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We have not used TT with younger grades...we started it with 7th grade math (for dd). I wish we'd found it sooner, as it's the most user-friendly of all the math programs we've tried.
Having said that, the only way to create a "gray area" in math is for you, the grader of tests, to give partial credit for properly-completed work. (This was also my experience in grade school - if the problem was set up correctly and the answer was only incorrect because of an arithmetic error, we got partial credit.)
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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stellamaris
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| Posted: Dec 20 2010 at 11:53am | IP Logged
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guitarnan wrote:
We have not used TT with younger grades...we started it with 7th grade math (for dd). I wish we'd found it sooner, as it's the most user-friendly of all the math programs we've tried.
Having said that, the only way to create a "gray area" in math is for you, the grader of tests, to give partial credit for properly-completed work. (This was also my experience in grade school - if the problem was set up correctly and the answer was only incorrect because of an arithmetic error, we got partial credit.)
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We definitely give partial credit here as well, Nancy. If the problem is incorrect because it is improperly set up, then you need to stop and take a few days to help her understand the concept. If it is incorrect because of calculation errors, take some time each day to review her basic facts. I like to use flashcards or Calculadders
I found with my perfectionist son that he would drag out the time it took to finish a math lesson (he did use Saxon, and we did all the problems every day). It helped him at this age to set a timer and work hard for a shorter period of time, say 20 minutes or so. No more than 30 minutes. Then, the next day, we just started where we had left off. He didn't always finish a lesson in one day using this system, but if you do some math around the calendar year, that is not a problem.
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Caroline
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cathhomeschool
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| Posted: Dec 23 2010 at 4:30pm | IP Logged
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We haven't used Teaching Textbooks for the younger grades but really like the high school math. Would switching help your dd, though? TT doesn't have any more gray area than any other program, and you can give partial credit using the Seton you already have.
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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4Real Forums : Living and Loving Numbers
Topic: Math frustrations??
