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KackyK
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| Posted: April 27 2009 at 6:45am | IP Logged
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My ds 4th grade has finished Rightstart. He did the whole program, it ends at 4th grade (well there is a geometry year after this, but we aren't going to do that).
I had him take the Saxon placement test. Following their guidelines, for if you get a certain amount right where you place, he places into Saxon 7/6. That seems high for a soon to be 5th grader. But I don't know...
I have had two children do a year of Saxon here and a year of Saxon there. I've never "followed" it, if that makes sense. Neither one of those dc were very "mathy" either.
This ds is a bit more mathy and things come quicker to him. So I thought we'd try a standard route with him.
Any opinions of Saxon placement? Anyone who went with what they recommended and it bombed...or flourished???
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KackyK
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Mackfam
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| Posted: April 27 2009 at 10:27am | IP Logged
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I've never placed the kids in Saxon, Kacky - we just roll with it from Saxon 5/4 on...
It is entirely possible that your son legitimately placed in 7/6. If it were me I'd consider looking at both 5/4 and 7/6 used. I have a curriculum store near me that sells used curriculum and can usually pick up the hardcover Saxon books for about $10 each. (btw, I MUCH prefer to go with the older edition hardcovers than the newer paper cover books!) OR...see if you can find a used curriculum store around you...Saxon books are usually plentiful on the shelves and go flip through 5/4. If it seems mostly redundant, I'd skip it and consider moving slowly (2 days/lesson) through 7/6. There is sooooo much review in the Saxon books that I think you can consider moving him into 7/6 and working your way through slowly.
I jumped my 7th grader from 7/6 in the 6th grade to a half a year of Algebra 1/2 for the first half of her 7th grade year and now Algebra I for the second half of the year. That's essentially a jump from 7/6 to Algebra I. We're going very sllllooowwwwwlllllyyyy right now, but it's working. I think you can jump ahead in Saxon because of the review in each book depending on a child's aptitude. I doubt there will be much jumping from Algebra I forward.
HTH!
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Jen Mackintosh
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saigemom
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| Posted: April 27 2009 at 5:01pm | IP Logged
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My ds is math minded as well. Last summer I had him take the placement test and he tested into 7/6 as well. After looking at the texts, I decided to put him in Saxon 6/5. He's in fourth grade and about to complete it.
I think he could have done 7/6, but I didn't want to push it. This way he had a relaxed math year. this is the first year we have done math tests. He really enjoyed the DIVE edition that we used.
So, I don't think that 7/6 is totally off for a 5th grader as that is what mine will be doing. Sometimes, they are just good at math.
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Tami
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| Posted: April 27 2009 at 5:26pm | IP Logged
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The Saxon placement test typically places children higher than they really should be. The student 'hits the wall' so-to-speak, about 1/3 of the way into the text (or late fall, early winter, if you follow a traditional school year). This is when the moms I know who've followed the placement test start saying they wish they'd chosen a lower level.
You might want to consider starting with 65 and testing out of the beginning chapters (I do this with all my dc), then see how your son does with the daily work. You can always move through it faster. It's much harder to back up after a child has struggled.
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When we are crushed like grapes, we cannot think of the wine we will become. (Nouwen)
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Mackfam
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| Posted: April 27 2009 at 6:50pm | IP Logged
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Mackfam wrote:
| If it were me I'd consider looking at both 5/4 and 7/6 used. |
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 ummm....I'm obviously slightly brain dead, Kacky. I meant to include Math 6/5 in my answer to you...and the funny thing is...when I was responding I even paused and thought...hmm, isn't there another math besides 5/4 and 7/6...no immediate response from my brain...so I apparently moved on with my answer from there.
Yes, Tami is right! 6/5 would be a good idea to start with. And...I'm glad Tami mentioned testing through the first few chapters. I do that as well. It helps us move through many of those review chapters quickly and get to the meat of the new material. Good grief. Sorry for the confusing post and answer!
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Jen Mackintosh
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ALmom
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| Posted: April 28 2009 at 1:04am | IP Logged
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Ok, we've done Saxon a lot of ways when we were doing it. Here are some things to consider - Saxon is more of a program about here are the steps on how to do it and plenty of drill and repetition. The concepts are briefly summarized when they appear again in later books. After they are first introduced with some conceptual information (typically very minimal in Saxon), they rarely repeat this conceptual information. When they appear later there is almost no conceptual information, if any at all. At this point it is simply an illustration as a quick reminder of the steps for solving this kind of problem. So for instance if there are a lot of really new concepts, then go with the Saxon text where they are first introduced - you'll have more help in how to do the problems and it will be the only place that even begins to try and help them see why they do it. Or if you do a more advanced book, be prepared to take some time and do some real instruction on your own on the concept and don't be a stickler for being in a rush or finishing the book, necessarily.
I guess I should warn you that I am a real maverick about grade levels in math texts. I really ignore them and look at concepts, where my child is conceptually and what they need. If that is in a 2nd grade book, that is where we start, regardless of the grade we are in. By the same token, if they already have concepts down solid, then using a later Saxon text is really not a big deal. They have review of everything ever done built into every single level. If we are using an older text and a child gets stumped on a concept I thought they understood, we simply take a break, re-introduce the concept using whatever means and/or texts seem to achieve this most efficiently for this child and then resume working through the text once we have re-learned a concept from a little different angle. I am never in a hurry with math.
In later grades, Saxon gets really bad about really truncating pieces of a concept and not all children connect the pieces into one whole unless someone does that for them and gives them the big picture and the why you do these things. This is the main weakness of the Saxon program. A lot depends on how comfortable you are with math and teaching it.
Going with earlier grades means more fuller explanations of concepts. But it can mean sheer boredom for a math saavy child. If you go with an earlier text, look over concepts and vocabulary and tailor it to your child - skipping things that are just busy work. I often simply circled problems in the text that I wanted the child to do. We did not do every single problem - no way! If the child never misses a problem on certain concepts, it is ridiculous to keep doing these every single lesson. I would spot check memory on some of these and if they still knew it after not doing it for a month - well not much point in continually reviewing it.
Each text covers a whole range of concepts and there are lots and lots of overlaps - look at the table of contents and see which things are new to your child and pick. Ideally there would be a tiny bit of review at the beginning, new concepts that build on this, introduced well with good explanations about why you do them, real life connections and then lots of practice in both doing this kind of problem and in applying this concept. Saxon has plenty of review, you may need to do a lot of supplementing with conceptual and application type things, particularly if you place in a more advanced text that is assuming the child already did 30,000 of some problem since 5/4 and it is actually new to your child. Many, many things are repeated ad nauseum in Saxon. A lot of times everything is introduced at once in one text and then repeated over and over and over again with only a few new concepts thrown in. The best thing to do is find the right mix of new concepts first introduced with review. I really think it helps to look at the actual text first. I wish you lived here cause then you could stop by and peruse a whole range of grade levels - but I'm sure if you have a curriculum fair, store that caters to homeschoolers or even a few homeschooling families nearby, you are bound to find bookoodles of Saxon to look through.
One of my children did MUS through advanced (a really old version), then we did Saxon 5/4 (because I wanted to make sure that now that we had a good concept in our head, we actually learned the vocabulary and became proficient and quick at doing the problems - ie I wanted a good year for everything to solidify - but we went through that book very quickly, skipping things I knew she already had down cold and only needed exposure to technical vocabulary so she wouldn't freeze if asked about an addend. We skipped from 5/4 to 8/7 and then to Algebra I. My poor oldest did Saxon from 5/4 through Advanced math - but we did skip Algebra 1/2 and either 7/6 or 8/7 and we did do some circling of problems at some point. I've switched from Saxon for my others, but I do generally have them do one year between Singapore Math and Algebra for the volume of practice and to fill in anything we might not have covered yet. I'm almost at that point again, and I'm not sure yet which text we'll use. I'm planning to go back and take a close look at the concepts I think my child needs most, and how each particular grade covers those concepts.
I have hardback and softbacks. In the softbacks, they actually reference you back to the chapter where somethign was first introduced in that book - a nice help for reviewing when there are missed concepts. Also with younger children, you usually have worktexts because they just aren't quite ready to do all that writing in copying problems from text to paper so if you are dealing with a younger age, particularly a male and non-writing fan, then I'd consider the softtext. I love the paperback books for my children who learn best when they don't have to write. I'm not sure there is significant difference in the way the concepts are presented - but if you have a particular text, I'll take a look. I'm thinking the softtext actually does a bit better job at making some connections, but I could be wrong, it has been so long since I've looked at Saxon. Oh, the hardbacks are cheaper. You can get many of the older Saxon editions around here for $5, and they are obviously re-usable. There are some great math drills in Saxon 5/4. I have an older version that gives permission to copy within a single family and I use that a lot even when I don't use 5/4.
In summary, I don't think there is a set answer to use. The plaement tests indicate a strong retention of what you have done - but look at what concepts he has already been introduced to and what are going to be new. I'd pick and choose based on this. Surely someone can give you a table of contents for grade levels you were considering. Flip through both texts if both cover the concept and see which does a better job. How something is first introduced makes a lot of difference in how easily it is grasped and how deep it is learned. If you are just memorizing steps, at some point it all falls like a domino of cards.
Oh, edited to add that it is often better to do placement tests after a long math break. When a child has a really solid concept, they remember how to do the problems even when they haven't done formal math for quite some time - like all summer. If the concept is shaky, they may remember well right after the school year but will not remember at the beginning of next school year.
Janet
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Tami
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Janet, that's an incredible review!  I found myself nodding as I read it. You should look into having it published. Seriously. It sounds like you have a solid handle on teaching math. Care to come here? 
I know that there were changes/revisions when Saxon went to paperbacks for some levels. In the older books, as I recall, 87 was primarily review, and the level to skip if your child was solid with his concepts. Now I think it 76 that is the big review book.
Anyway, great review, Janet. I'm too tired to add anything else.... Kacky, hope this is helping you. I have a strong math ds, too. I'm heading back into Saxon with him, having been through Abeka 6. It's all coming back to me now.... 
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Tami
When we are crushed like grapes, we cannot think of the wine we will become. (Nouwen)
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KackyK
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| Posted: April 28 2009 at 6:20am | IP Logged
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This is all great stuff!!!!
I do own the older 54 and 65...so I'll sit down and study those. I don't have a 76. I actually have the hard and soft versions of 65, maybe I can check out those differences.
Singapore math...you like that one Janet???
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KackyK
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ALmom
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| Posted: April 28 2009 at 9:34am | IP Logged
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Kacky:
I've found Singapore math just right for us. I started my current 6th grader a year or two ago in 2nd grade and we just worked through what we need. By 5th or 6th grade there are a few concepts that are not explained at all to the child (or in the teachers book) and you have to know how and what to do. This would be very frustrating to a math stressed person. It doesn't bother me, though it did sneak up on me with my racing child. I pulled out something else for that concept since he had done the whole Singapore incorrectly. Sometimes I even pull out MUS blocks for a hands on, visual of a concept.
We add in drill work and some extra practice from time to time. There isn't a ton of review in Singapore math so we slow down really quickly if the child tends to miss things. We pull out more practice problems when they have missed more than a fleeting problem. They do have extra practice books, but I also have tons of math materials around here so this isn't hard for me. It might be difficult for someone who just wants one book that they can hand to their child.
Singapore does a lot of mental math and stresses conceptual but it can move too quickly if you are one who just wants a book and follow it - 1 math page per day. Again, I pay zilch attention to the labels. It fits more with how I think math should be taught - deeply with concepts and really good sense of what it is all about. I can add in a few things after they finish 6B that seem to be more common in the American model. Oh, and Singapore introduces English and metric at the same time and early which connects readily with my science minded folks here. I love the suggestions on how to teach it - they make estimations by finding things around the house that are about .... then they check their estimates by measuring. The workbook pages are not extensive but the teacher's manual is full of hands on real ways to learn this concept. It might be harder to get a math hater to run off with more than what you assign but with mine using Singapore - they are all either visual or kinesthtetic learners and need the big picture. The small size of the books is unintimidating and allows me time to pull out my geometry 3 part cards or do some other type things that are more helpful to my children than endless repetitions of the steps of a problem. All of my children who have used this seem to thrive with it. An example is that they simply discovered an approximate relationship between metric and English measures and have no trouble with conversions. They would never have just memorized it with ease. They took off coming up with competitions, more things to estimate and measure, etc.
I do have 1 racer - the child I started in the 2nd grade text (He is finishing 6A now in 6th) and I had to really watch that he payed attention to little details like order of operation. I really had to slow him down a bit. I also found that he has a really strong number sense and really excelled at mental math so he now hates writing down steps and prefers to do everything in his head - just makes careless mistakes when rushing and wihtout showing work. I have to make him rewalk me through his thinking process so I know exactly what piece he is missing and sometimes it is a simple concept, easy to understand but something he just missed in his racing and sometimes it is simply careless math error due to keeping track of everything in his head - so be careful of this with your really, really strong math folks who tend to be in a hurry. I make him do tons of problems at times because he raced through something (ie doing an entire book in 1 week, but then missing a ton because he never paid attention to Order of Operations. I didn't want to just verbally re-instruct. I wanted him to do more problems correctly than he had done incorrectly - and teach him to be a bit more attentive to the instructions, explanations, etc. We can make games out of it, but we didn't want to move him forward without knowing this was solidly in place. He is also my child that often doesn't read a word problem carefully and answers the wrong question once you hit more than 1 part questions. He tends to not bother with writing units so I'm a stickler - and point out that if he bothered, he might catch a number of his own mistakes. We do use the extra practice books and word problem books with him - not so much with the others.
Singapore is not re-usable (well I often have the children copy from the TB so I can at least re-use that one) but it is rather inexpensive. It moves at a generally good pace for mine, but when you hit a new concept, be sure that it is understood deeply, inside out and upside down before moving on. There won't be a ton of review. One thing I love about the book is that when you do slow down, it isn't hard to pick up speed later. It is fairly easy to find practice problems even if you aren't a math person. Once they have a concept down cold, they often go very quickly through the next book. It does not have review of really old material which might be a problem for some. We haven't found it to be a problem yet with my particular younger ones who have used it - but they are all math folks. My olders are good at math (I tutored math to pay for college so this part is second nature to me and I simply am stubborn about the children really understanding what they are doing and why) but not particularly fond of it. Don't know if the lack of fondness is all that Saxon or if it is simply not their favorite thing to do. It is probably a bit of both. The lack of long term review in Singapore is why we are going to do 1 year of Saxon. The spiral review makes it a good overall review year before launching into upper level math like Algebra but it becomes very tedious for mine if it is done year after year after year. Also, with Saxon they often didn't have enough problems with the new concept early on to make it solid. (The way I handled that with the children who used Saxon is by cirlcing all the practice problems on a a new concept for a while and any types that they'd missed in the past until they weren't missing them, then I'd drop them off my circled problems for a while and spot check them after a long time of not. I circled in pencil so I could erase and pick for each child. Since I was a tutor it was fairly easy for me to glance over the problems and know things like - oh, yep, they've got to do that division problem to make sure they really understand the idea of zero as a place holder, etc. I could pick the trickiest ones for the child who seemed to have the basic concept down as we were reviewing. I tended to at least verbally give them some idea of where they might use this little step later - and if possible connect it to something real that the child was interested in.
With Singapore, since there isn't tons of problems either but they do tend to stick to problems related to the knew concept so overall you get as much practice with a new concept at the start. They have lots of active suggestions for really learning the concept hands on but because there isn't the sheer volume of problems, you can find a few children who simply are not motivated to memorize facts (with Saxon by gee and by golly even the most resistant will eventually learn those facts just from the sheer volume of problems cause if they don't know them within seconds, they'll be spending untold hours on problems and they evenutally figure out that if they don't want to spend 5 years in 5/4 they'd better just learn their facts. Of course this volume can also create math haters. With Singapore the problem is different. I have to be a bit more insistent with Singapore - and illustrate why it is important to memorize facts by having them do a longer math problem (long division with bigger numbers works wonders cause if they don't really just know facts, they are doing a lot of trial and error and it takes at least twice as long to finish! Then if they don't have the facts cold, we make sure they do and will add in drill work of some sort - and keep it up until it is really quick. I've done everything from pull out an abacus, timed drills, building with MUS blocks, competitive games, etc. depending on the child.
Singapore assumes that the teacher is doing their own drill so this is not really in the text much, but you will bog down somewhere if you don't do it and insist on it at some point. I like that the pace is so kind, that I am free to slow down or speed up according to my child and there is plenty of time for drill, hands on learning, real life applications (combination of word problems and going out in the back yard and doing a project that requires the math you are learning).
Hope this helps. (Just so you know, my areas of comfort with teaching are math and history so I'm likely to borrow what I like from a number of texts and materials and weave it together my own way. I'm comfortable with this because of my own background, but someone else may need something different).
Janet
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4Real Forums : Living and Loving Numbers
Topic: what do you think of Saxon placement?
