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time4tea
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| Posted: March 02 2009 at 10:33am | IP Logged
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H Everyone,
Very few of our dc seem to have inherited their father's math genes, instead, they got my very deficient ones  . My 3rd grade dd has been struggling through 3rd grade math this year, and after trying out a couple of different programs, I am thinking what may be best for her is to just back down one grade level to a 2nd grade book. Has anyone else ever had to do this with any of their dc? I feel a bit like a failure, but she is really not comprehending what she needs to know, and I end up doing the math for her most of the time, which is a waste. I know this sounds silly, but I feel as if I must have done something terribly wrong with her here.......
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Matilda
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| Posted: March 02 2009 at 10:49am | IP Logged
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We did it. We started with Saxon and after struggling for three years, switched to MCP workbooks while we evaluated other programs. When we decided on Math-U-See, I let them take the placement tests and then decided to start them in the level lower than where they placed. (They placed on grade level.) By working through the summer, we are now at the point where they will finish MUS in the next few weeks and then I will move them into their grade levels with Teaching Textbooks for the older two and the next MUS level for my second grader.
I was hesitant to do it, but now, I am firm believer in the benefits of a math program being "too easy" rather than too hard. If it's too hard, non-math brains shut down. When it's easy, their successes keep math enjoyable for those who aren't naturally math gifted.
Just my opinion. Hope that helps.
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: March 02 2009 at 11:08am | IP Logged
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It's really about following the child's lead.. those who find it "too easy" can get bored and shut down as well.
we try to move along at the pace of the child.. supplementing where necessary if they're not getting something.
We have the policy of it's not right if it's not 100% right.. so I'll check it.. and mark the ones they need to redo.. until it's right and then they move on. It helps them pay attention and do it well.. and we use Singapore Math.. which has few enough problems that if they're whipping through it they're not bogged down just by the boring work of answering the same thing yet again.
But we have other things to use like there's a great online math tutor that does addition, subtraction and multiplication squares. It helps a lot with speed and accuracy if they have some basic facts memorized. And we go for being accurate.. and then building the number of accurate answer in the alloted time.. Starting with a shorter time helps them get how it works.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
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All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
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Matilda
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| Posted: March 02 2009 at 12:22pm | IP Logged
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JodieLyn wrote:
| It's really about following the child's lead.. those who find it "too easy" can get bored and shut down as well. |
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While I can't say that this has been my experience with my three school age children, I can see the truth in it. Sorry if I my comments were seen as only one sided. I guess that is the only side I have encountered so far. 
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Charlotte (Matilda)
Mom to four (11, 10, 9 & 5) an even split for now
with bookend boys and a double girl sandwich
Waltzing Matilda
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: March 02 2009 at 12:46pm | IP Logged
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I understand.. I was one of those who would get lazy and fight doing math because it was sooo boring to do the same thing over and over and over when I got it the first time..
But then there were other levels that I needed to move slower so it can vary even for the same child.
And yeah, we all speak to our own experience. So your's was great.. and definately good advice. But yeah there is always that other side 
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
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time4tea
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| Posted: March 02 2009 at 1:16pm | IP Logged
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Thank you both for your comments! Unfortunately, I have to say I have no experience having an advanced math student among any of my children. Our 2nd oldest is just on grade level and does well, and he is the best of the bunch so far. Our oldest, who is in 10th, struggles with math and for that reason has had to take Algebra 1 twice now. Our oldest dd has no difficulty memorizing math facts at all; where she struggles is with comprehending the material, especially as it becomes increasingly more abstract. Both our oldest in 10th and our 3rd grader are dyslexic, btw. We have been working through Saxon 3 this year after having done MCP last year. I had hoped that the hands-on, scripted lessons would help, and while I think they have, they unfortunately haven't helped enough for her to bridge the gap. She is about half-way through the book, and is really just struggling with many of the daily lessons. She often cannot complete the worksheet without me pretty much doing the work for her. To make matters worse, I am really, really burned out right now. I do not have the energy nor the creativity at the moment to re-invent the wheel for her. So I decided this morning, after watching her go through her daily struggle, that it was time to just back down a little and take some of the stress out of it, not only for her but also for me as her teacher. Then, I began second guessing myself, and whether or not doing that was a good idea......I hope I'm making sense here. Sorry for rambling! 
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Red Cardigan
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Tea, I did it with my oldest DD. We had switched math books a few times too many trying to find one she didn't hate and then when I decided to go back to an old standby I realized that the math she'd been doing in one of the "superior" programs was nearly a whole grade level behind the "old standby" workbooks!
So I had her use the same book as her sister who is one grade level behind. I don't know if it was the "easier" grade level or the fact that she had someone else to work with, but her math grades began improving. She still struggles sometimes, but to be honest she's doing a lot better than if I had "pushed" her to stay a grade level ahead.
At this point, they're both using Saxon's Algebra 1/2, for a 7th grader and an 8th grader. I think this will work out fine for them as they'll have plenty of math to do through high school.
If your young one is really struggling with the concepts as you describe, I think stepping back a level is a really good idea. I wish I'd done it earlier with my DD; she's always had some specific math issues (sequential numbers confused her when she was little, for instance, and if she had to fill in "missing" numbers from a grid of 20 numbers she'd be lost) and if I'd dropped her back a grade back in second or third grade instead of waiting until sixth grade she might be doing even better than she is now. Even though I waited to make that decision I'm positive it's the right one; there's no question of "it's too easy so I'm bored" in our house when it comes to math! 
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time4tea
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| Posted: March 02 2009 at 4:01pm | IP Logged
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Thanks, Red, for your input here! I went ahead and ordered her the worktext this afternoon. I told her that I think she just needs a little review, and so far she seems fine with it. I wish we did have the "it's too easy I'm bored" problem here - it would be a refreshing change for us 
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Isa in Michigan
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| Posted: April 01 2009 at 4:02pm | IP Logged
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Some children really need the mastery approach to math as opposed to the spiral approach, because with the mastery approach they stay on a subject long enough to master it and do it well. You might consider stopping Saxon math for a few weeks and just play games and drill basic addition and subtraction facts for speed and accuracy. Even drilling one minute a day on simple addition/subtraction facts can go a long way. Playing math games can be a vital component in bringing back the joy of doing math, and help to bring back motivation.
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ALmom
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| Posted: April 01 2009 at 4:58pm | IP Logged
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You mentioned that your main math strugglers are dyslexic to some degree. From what I've read that also may indicate a need for a big picture presentation where they can see in their mind from all angles (Gift of Dyslexia was a really good read)- something that is non-existent in Saxon. Saxon teaches you how to do the steps. They truncate things into the smallest parts and then you put the parts together - but the parts are seperated by many, many chapters and somehow the child is supposed to connect the dots. For some children this is great (I have fun with that approach), but for many, many children - this kills interest and creates huge blocks to understanding. My children who were big picture learners had a very hard time with that approach. We had to switch for them to really get math - or be able to give the big picture first and use Saxon as a workbook with lots of drill and repetition.
If you are working with anyone concerning the dyslexia, they might give you some hints on the type of math program that would be most productive. You also may get good ideas from moms of dyslexics on this board.
As far as slowing down or backing down - hey, in math, you work on the concept they need and build up on firm foundation. I'm using Singapore but for my 3rd grader, we stopped the 3rd grade book, pulled out a really fun little book of math fact games and my MUS blocks. He builds the multiplication facts he doesn't get right away - so he has a visual picture in his mind of what it really is all about. No point moving on to division which should be rather simple if they really understand multiplication, right? Honestly, if you move at a slower pace early on, the benefits are great. Think about reading - some children are ready at 5, others at 7, others at 10 - but in the end they all learn how to read and read well. The only problem will be when the child who isn't ready until 10 is forced to read at 5 or 6 because that is when you are supposed to - you'll create a hatred for reading, a mental block and possibly damage the eyes. The other side is the child who teaches themself to read at 4 and then is forced to stay with the folks who are just learning the phonics sounds at 8 and stuck reading Spot books and no opportunity to move on to things that continue to challenge- that child may learn to hate reading and may even become a discipline problem. Math is very similiar.
I've worked with numbers of college students tutoring math (or did pre my own children days) and none of them were incapable of learning math. They simply had to have someone ask the right questions to find where they were at and then mostly overcome the fear and belief that they were simply no good at math. Once they got it, they were as smart in math as the average person. I'm sure they were just not ready for some of the advanced concepts taught in the elementary years and were filling in those holes and missing bits and pieces as they went along - and thus failing tests and missing little, very simple concepts but concepts that caused the whole deck of cards to collapse on them. A lot of them used the same things they couldn't do on paper in everyday life, just wasn't called math and it made sense to them.
I've taken this work where you are at approach with every single one of my children - of varying math aptitudes and they have been all over the spectrum in terms of grade level in the early years. One of my weaker math students actually was the one who was always on grade level. Many of my others were in books way below grade level in the first 4 grades. Some of these are quite good at math now. You just keep discerning where the real problem is - sloppiness, math facts, conceptual gap, boredom that bred carelessness, vision difficulties where they couldn't read the problems correctly (I have one child who tends to reverse things when asked what to do first to solve a problem - but when he has to solve the problem he never has a problem. This isn't a math issue - more likely related to the vision/lack of binocularity), blindly plugging and chugging without making real connections to why (this was a biggy for my math haters), not really getting the base 10 system and falling apart at long division or multiplication with carrying (2 digit by 2 digit problems with carrying). There are a lot of typical stumbling blocks that you just kind of recognize. Whenever they hit a wall that is conceptual or making connections in real life, we try to make things really concrete for a while. I want my big picture learners to have a picture in their head of what it is all about even as they do those steps. (Oh and these big picture learners of mine were the ones who just could not memorize steps of a problem - all that Saxon really gives you) and made some of the most bizzare errors. I ended up teaching some things in a whole different way -so they could see the picture and never showed them the shortcuts. Eventually they discovered the shortcuts for themselves and then never messed up when you mulitplied, subtracted, pulled down, or how you line the stuff up again. They were no longer blindly trying to memorize a random set of muddle but were recognizing what they were doing and then it wasn't hard for it to just find its way into permanent memory.
You basically have to be a sleuth - which is certainly harder when you are trying to teach a subject where you feel a major weakness (I know, I feel that way in science and just have to get support here). Perhaps your dh could be your sleuth and look at the kind of problems or mistakes and let you know where you should focus energy or money for programs or manipulatives, or games or....
Janet
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4Real Forums : Living and Loving Numbers
Topic: Backing down a grade level in math-help!
