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time4tea
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| Posted: Nov 30 2005 at 10:31am | IP Logged
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Hi!
My ds, age 12 and in 7th Grade, hates Math. Well, actually, he doesn't so much dislike Math as he dislikes Saxon Math (he is currently using Saxon 7/6). I know many families use - and love - Saxon (our younger ds falls into this category), but our older ds hates it and really struggles with it. Is there anything else out there for someone like him? I would call him a Math student of "average" ability, so I am not sure whether some of the suggestions made in the previous thread about 7th Grade Math would be applicable to him or not. I find that shorter, to the point lessons work better for him, also. I am looking for material that is also user friendly for me, as I am not a Math whiz.
Thank you all in advance for your help! God bless!
Jenny
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Mary G
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| Posted: Nov 30 2005 at 11:25am | IP Logged
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Jenny -- I agree with your son -- I can't stand Saxon Math! But I know there are many who think it's a real winner.
Does your son not like it becuase of the repetition, the lack of practice before moving on to the next topic, or it's above or below his ability? These are all reasons that I dislike the Saxon-way.
Have you checked MacBeth's living book list of Math books? Or the Family Math or Family Math: The Middle School Years -- Algebraic Reasoning and Numbers Sense? Those were recommended recently!
Also, the Lynette Long books -- mentioned on this link Lynette Long -- the domino and card ones are too young for your son but she has a whole series of fractions, multiplication, etc that also might help. Check Amazon's listing of her books for descriptions.
Hope this helps 
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MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
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time4tea
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| Posted: Nov 30 2005 at 1:29pm | IP Logged
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Mary,
He doesn't care for the repetition, but personally I do not beleive he gets to practice a concept thoroughly enough before it's on to the next one, which undermines - at least for my son - the repetitive pattern of the teaching, because he cannot repeat what he has not really learned yet.
Do you have any personal experience with the Family Math materials? Are the lessons short or are they very long (such as Making math Meaningful tneds to use).
Thanks so much!
God bless,
Jenny
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Victoria in AZ
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| Posted: Dec 01 2005 at 10:43am | IP Logged
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For my ds, Math-U-See in 7th grade worked well. Their fraction manipulatives were perfect for us.
That said, I am convinced that with math, you have to keep trying programs with every different child because it is not a one-size-fits-all proposition at all!! I say this from difficult experience and experimenting 
Keep trying and when you see the light bulbs go off, you will be glad you tried some new things.
Math-U-See Algebra did not work for us. Dive CD with Saxon Pre-Algebra did not work for us. So far so good with Key to Algebra series 
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Your sister in Christ,
Victoria in AZ
dh Mike 24 yrs; ds Kyle 18; dd Katie 12; and one funny pug
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time4tea
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| Posted: Dec 01 2005 at 11:00am | IP Logged
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Thanks for your reply, Victoria! I did look into Math-U-See, but the cost of trying to get started is a bit steep for us. I know many families find Math-U-See products at E-bay, but I am not comfortable buying through online auctions due to previous problems with that.
Thanks again for your help!
God bless,
Jenny
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Karen T
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| Posted: Dec 04 2005 at 8:38am | IP Logged
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I started with Math U See for my ds, then in 6th grade. He hated it. I felt he needed a lot more practice with fractions than he'd gotten in public school the previous year, and I liked MUS's approach. he did learn the concepts but when we finished fractions he still got confused over the various operations (ie when to find common denominators, when not to, etc.) so before moving on we used the Key To Fractions books. Those were great for him; they're very straightforward, no frills, lots of practice. We both liked them so much he went on to do Key to Decimals, Percents and geometry. This year I looked at MUS again and was very close to trying it again, but ended up with Saxon. To my surprise, ds really likes it (8/7) although we've cut down on the number of mixed practice problems. I circle about 15 out of the 30 listed, picking the ones he needs the most work on. We're actually repeating a good bit of what he learned in the Key to books last year, but I looked at Algebra 1/2 and felt he wasn't quite ready for that, esp. since he doesn't like math much.
btw, I didn't know this until just recently, but in the back of the Saxon book there are supplemental problems for each lesson, if you think they need more practice on a concept, instead of doing the mixed practice.
The Key to books are very inexpensive, about $2.50 per individual booklet, about $12-15 for a whole set (ie, 4 workbooks, a test book and answer key) You might want to pick up a set of these to try.
Karen T
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ALmom
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| Posted: Dec 04 2005 at 9:58am | IP Logged
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Ditto what Victoria said about every dc being different and a need to keep experimenting until something clicks. Still, if you can figure out ahead of time what seems to be the good vs bad of Saxon (or whatever you have already used) with ds, then perhaps you can cut down on wasting time and money.
We have used a whole bunch of different things with different dc. Do you know what is stumping your dc?
We've had a child that needed a different presentation of concepts, someone else that needed to spend more time solidifying basic concepts, etc.
Saxon is not our overall favorite text but it is very mom-friendly and I haven't found anything as easy for me to use. That being said - we have always given dc conceptual base first with real life and/or Math-U-See and follow that up with Saxon for practice problems.
Sometimes Saxon truncates concepts into such tinsy little steps that dc loses the big picture. Taking a step back to present the overall concept with something else might work. We have just ordered the Lynette Long books for one of our dc as Saxon was too much for now, Math-U-See was OK but he just isn't learning basic multiplication facts. We'll go back to Math-u-See after this, followed by Saxon for extra practice.
Math-u-See has great, down to earth conceptual presentations but parent is left to make up most of the practice problems (which I don't have the time to do). It also involves a lot of mom time and older dc sometimes feel dumb when they see the video with all these little kids doing Algebra. I love their Intermediate level which introduces fractions first - then division.
I've got to go - I'll come back as soon as able to finish the post.
Janet
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ALmom
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| Posted: Dec 04 2005 at 12:45pm | IP Logged
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To finish the post - Math-U-See worked wonders for an older dc who was way behind in Math, our ds who was more Math intuitive hated it (but we did use it briefly to introduce fractions with their manipulatives and using some problems out of Saxon or other Math books). He also hated Miquon Math - didn't want to be bothered with the Math manipulatives (but needed them as he was solidifying a new concept).
We even ordered Developmental Mathematics (there is no real presentation of the material) but does have lots of extra problems to do in each area. It would be deadly dull by itself but an inexpensive way to have supplemental exercises in different problem types as the book is divided into levels each covering a different concept. Our one ds really loved these as a temporary break from Saxon (we allowed him to use manipulatives to help solve the problems but didn't move back to the Saxon text until we saw that he no longer needed the manipulatives.
Also, Saxon is extremely repetitive from year to year. They do have an on-line placement test and we have skipped various levels of Saxon - going from Math-U-See Intermediate with one dc to Saxon 5/4 to online testing which placed her in 8/7 which she is doing now with ease.
With our oldest dc we didn't figure this out as soon and did all the sequences except skipped most of pre-Algebra and went right to Algebra (planning to take it slower and supplement as needed). We did do odd problems only and at one point even began to circle only the problems with the new concept plus a few other kinds that she had missed in previous lessons. We only did the full lesson right before the test. This is not the way Saxon recommends that we use their material - but I supplemented extra practice when I saw a need and found other sources to explain new concepts with greater unity.
We also did a lot of real - life questions around the table - grocery store type stuff or calculating percentages or mental math (led by dh who still thinks I'm a hoot of a Math major that was still adding on my fingers when I started teaching the kids).
Saxon will also take a ton of time if Math facts are not known cold. Rather than make the dc do every problem until they figure this out, we find it more palatable and efficient to play some games to learn the facts. CHC has some ideas in their Catholic Math book - one is making flash cards in the shape of baseballs and basically playing baseball. If you don't get the answer correct or right away - it's a strike. If you get it right it is a hit and the other team has to field your ball by answering a math fact card. If the fielder gets it correct right away then you are out. It is so funny to me how this little deviation from standard flashcard has made this the game of choice for my boys.
We have also ordered a few of the Lynette Long books and plan to use them the same way - supplemental practice, mental math, introduction/review of something that needs more than Saxon gives it. But I always go back to Saxon, just because it is so easy for me to use. I just make it work for dc by not relying on it as the primary presenter and then assigning problems according to dc need. That works for us. I'm sure there is better stuff out there - some of the stuff was appealing to me but right now we cannot afford to purchase one more thing.
Hope this helps.
Janet
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Erin
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| Posted: Dec 04 2005 at 6:23pm | IP Logged
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Jenny,
At the moment I have to say Singapore Maths is great. I am using it for my seventh grader. I think I mentioned it on the previous thread. Surprisingly when I got her to do the test I discovered some big holes in her competency! So she has gone back to the fifth grade and is whizzing through that as a good revision.
I am using this for all my children. Some of our children are very good at maths and some are average. My 10yd dd is my most average student and he loves it. Primarily because the workbooks are not intimidating looking. The tests are actually quite difficult but the workbooks aren't as tough. A friend with children of learning difficulties is planning on using it with her children next year as she feels the layout is very good for children with visaul processing problems.
One of the features I like is that they often get the child to do word problems. Which after all is what we learn alot of the disciplines for, so that we can put it all into practise.
The lessons are very quick due to the page layout. I have only bought the workbooks and the texts. I really don't think you need the teacher's books. At least I haven't so far. Go to here for the test and see what you think. http://www.sonlight.com/singapore-placement-tests.html
Finding the right fit for your son is tough but once found makes the world of diference. I overheard my dd10 having a discussion with a homeschooled 16yr the other day. She was sharing how she had given up on school this year as the work was too hard, she couldn't get it. Dd said, "well why didn't your mum get you a different book? I hated maths and my mum got me a different book and now I love it."  Boy did that make all my searching worth it.
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Erin
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ALmom
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| Posted: Dec 08 2005 at 12:08am | IP Logged
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One thing that might help reassure you is to flip through the table of contents of whatever Math you have. That generally gives you an idea of the concepts. One thing I have noticed is that for many years Saxon simply repeats the same concepts over and over with bigger and bigger numbers. If the dc really understands the concept, they don't have trouble transferring to bigger numbers and the text will get deadly dull if you spend too much time beating the same thing over and over.
You are basically looking at addition and subtraction of single digit numbers and multiplcation of the same (basic facts), then bigger numbers, then carrying and borrowing and long division with and without remainders. Decimals and percents which are really simply fractions represented differently. There is also some measurement, conversion of units of measure to other units, fractions, operations with fractions (Math-U-See had the best presentation here that I have ever seen because they had clear overlays where you can physically see dividing 1/2 by 1/3. If you could look at someone's set, you could probably make your own with some laminated construction paper, and just laminated sheets (laminated togehter with nothing between them and then use a permanent marker to divide into 3rds, 1/2s etc.
I have noticed that my dc tended to get bogged down with long division (if the concept wasn't explained and they were just memorizing steps), ratios and fractions. There are lots of real life ways to make this come alive and when we saw this starting we'd throw out our book for a while and work on the concept in real life situations, hands-on or with manipulatives or even find an old math tb somewhere that gave a different explanation that I could demonstrate. Ie you can explain division as the reverse of multiplication or fast subtraction (and some dc will grasp one idea better while a different dc will see it with the other)
I keep hearing such great things about Singapore Math, but just haven't been able to afford it with all the other stuff we have around. If you can afford a new text/program - go for it. If not perhaps you could go through the table of contents of the book you have - what are they really trying to teach and where is ds getting stuck or generally making his mistakes or getting bogged down. Then use games (like in the Lynette Long books) to reinforce the skills that need work and use just specific problems (I would circle problems in pencil right in the textbook so dc knew which ones I wanted done) in whatever TB you have after you feel the concept is learned. I was impressed with the presentations of concepts in the Long books (they were brief but would certainly take you through elementary and middle level math) with some additional practice problems as reinforcement. But most of the practice seems to be done with games which is great! They even spoke of division as fast subtraction. They also relate one thing to another so that you get a better overall picture even though each book is focusing on one thing at a time.
Hope you find something that really helps you. I wish I had known about all the folks here when we first started homeschooling years ago. I'm sure someone will have ideas on how to help with specific areas as you go along if you post a question. I wish I had known of some of the other texts out there (but they weren't well known when I first started teaching and now I have all this Math stuff and find it hard to spend a whole lot of $ for new curriculum since I have been telling my dh that even though it is expensive, we'll pass it down and won't have to order math (or whatever) for the next dc for the last 17 years. My credibility went out the window quite a few years ago.
Janet
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4Real Forums : Living and Loving Numbers
Topic: Pls. Help w/7th Grade Math!
