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Erin
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I was just wondering if anyone here could tell me what they think of Saxon Math? Or perhaps soemthing else for my grade 7 daughter.
My dd12 has always loved maths and been an advanced student, this year for the first time we have had tears and she is saying she hates maths. I realise that at grade 7 maths gets harder and some of that is understandable. However I am finding it difficult to see this child who formerly loved maths having this reaction.
We switched to New Century Maths 7 which is an Australian program. It is definetly aimed at the above average student but I feel it is too hard. She hardly manages to do a few questions a day. This is not like her and it has been this way all year. Dd insists its not the book but I really feel the program can make all the difference. I get overwhelmed looking at the questions.
With my ds10 this term we swapped to Singapore maths and for the first time I have my maths resistant ds saying he loves maths  I know the right approach can make a difference.
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Erin
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momwise
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Erin,
I doubt anyone could have more children that hate math than I do in my house. I really like Family Math: The Middle School Years. I don't use it every day or even as often as I should but whenever I do my math haters have fun and enjoy math.
I also use some of the "Key to ... " series for that grade level. Macbeth's Math page has some great suggestions for living math reading.
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Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
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Mary G
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Oh great Gwen!  WIll you explain to my dh why I just need to have this series -- the little kid ones look great!
Blessings!
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MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
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MacBeth
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Erin, with an advanced student, you might go with Jacobs' Mathemaitcs: A Human Endeavor. I used it right after Saxon 65 for my two older kids, and it was a great relief from Saxon, great fun to do, and was invaluable for thinking processes. It was written for college students who think they don't like math. We did not finish it with the kids (we used parts of it as pre-algebra), but we will continue to pull lessons from it. My high school math teacher used parts of it as pre-calculus. Loved it. 
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MacBeth in NY
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mom3aut1not
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Erin,
You might want to consider doing some Singapore Math with her as it is an advanced program-- have her do the placement test at www.singaporemath.com. I used and liked New Elementary Math (also from Aingapore, but for older children) with two of my daughters, but it's (so I have been told) a big jump from PM6 to NEM 1. Still, it is a good program. However, from the sound of it, it might intimidate your daughter even if she can do the work. Mathematics: A Human Endeavor is a good introduction to what math is really like -- diverse, interesting, beautiful, and elegant. It's a good choice. You might also want to consider http://www.activitiesforlearning.com/index.asp?PageAction=VI EWCATS&Category=8 for something different.
May God help you as you help your dd!
In Christ,
Deborah
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Rachel May
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| Posted: Nov 19 2005 at 6:08pm | IP Logged
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Erin wrote:
| I was just wondering if anyone here could tell me what they think of Saxon Math? Or perhaps soemthing else for my grade 7 daughter. |
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My brother who teaches math at Thomas Aquinas College said that his understanding was that Saxon sucks the soul out of math. Does that make it not "living"? 
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Rachel
Thomas and Anthony (10), Maria (8), Charles (6), Cecilia (5), James (3), and Joseph (1)
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Cay Gibson
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MacBeth,
I whole-heartedly trust your opinion, but is it cheaper anywheres else?
$72.00!!! Yikes!!! 
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Cay Gibson
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Cay Gibson
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Cay Gibson wrote:
$72.00!!! Yikes!!! |
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Make that $73.00... 
Garrett is finishing Saxon 65 and I think we need something more "living".
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
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Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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mom3aut1not
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Rachel,
Your db makes Saxon sound positively.... vampiric.
I have been involved in math discussions on a number of different lists recently. It's most interesting as I have been pondering and reconsidering math education after some recent reading. One person (I don't remember where) said that her daughter saw Singapore math (which I like) as a set of puzzles; I inferred that she seemed not to see "real math" as puzzlely. She preferred Saxon math as it seemed orderly, and God is a God of order. That made me think about why some people really like Saxon. And some people really do! And why don't I like Saxon? And I don't!
I think in part whether or not you like math depends on your view of math and what your goals in math are determines your opinion of Saxon.
God is indeed a God of order, but I see that order in math as a beautful tapestry of delicate golden threads woven into a background of beautiful jewel tone yarns that extends without limit in all directions. Saxon to me is not a good representation of the beauty of God's work in mathematics. (Ok, I have to admit that real analysis does have some ugly bits....)
Saxon impresses me as a cookbook of specific algorithms for a variety of different specific kinds of problems. That being said, I did use it for a while to firm up my dd's grasp of a few algorithms. (I would choose a different aproach now, but that was then.) I used it a bit with both of my older daughters, but I would not try it again. It wasn't the worst program (I won't even name that horrible program) I have tried, but I think that better materials and approaches exist.
Sason *is* easily used by many people, and some kids have learned "the basics" that way. And people who have a grasp of the algorithms may feel competent in math in a way they don't with a less recipe-like view of math. It also gives some moms confidence in a area where they have none, and that is to Saxon's credit.
However, many people (and most teachers it seems) see math as an orderly set of specific algorithms and types of word problems where there is only one proper way to solve a problem and that can be solved expeditiously if one has a proper grasp of the material. That is not the math I studied nor the math my dh does now. In fact, puzzles and puzzlely math led him to the career he has as a cryptologist. (Every number theorist I have ever met is a puzzle freak.) Mathematics is wilder and more beautiful than a cookbook.
I guess what I am trying to say is that whether Saxon is a good fit for your family depends on your view of math, your goals in math, and the particular circumstances of your family. For example, one mom I respect greatly uses Saxon in part because ..... she can. With an extra-large family Saxon (for some grades anyway) is something she can manage. Her view of math and her goals in math are different from mine, and so we diverge in this area. In a perfect universe she might not use Saxon, but perfection is not found this side of Heaven.
My daughters'opinion of Saxon:
Kristin says that Saxon was "too boring and repetitive" and "It wasn't as interesting" as Precalculus from Key Curriculum Press.
Katie can't remember it at all. I do remember when we changed to New Elementary Math that she greatly preferred NEM to Saxon.
Lisa doesn't remember Saxon, but she retained very little. (She is our token math hater.)
I should add that I am speaking mostly of Saxon from gr.4 up as I never considered buying the earlier grades. From what I have heard, Saxon in the earlier grades is full of material that can be handled informally, and it is quite repetitive. It is scripted for the nervous. It is also expensive as you need an extensive set of manipulatives each year. (I have nothing against manipulatives, but I like to use them over a *long* period of time.) This is all hearsay as I didn't want to use Saxon K-3 with my son. (IIRC Saxon came up with their K-3 program when my big kids were beyond that point so I never seriously contemplated purchasing it.)
I am afraid that this post is not as coherent as I would like, but I am getting sick and this is what I could manage.
In Christ,
Deborah
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mom3aut1not
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Bleah.
I really am not doing so well.
>I think in part whether or not you like math depends on your view of >math and what your goals in math are determines your opinion of >Saxon.
should have been
I tihnk your view of math and your goals in math determines your opinion of Saxon. Moreover, liking math or not is not the same as liking or disliking Saxon. Some people like a wilder math, and some don't. Some like cookbook math, and some don't. Some people don't like any kind of math. <g> Some people like the idea of a more conceptual and problem-solving-driven approach, but lack the confidence or time and energy to implement it.
Erin, it's pretty clear what I like. I don't know what you like or what comfort level you have with "wild math". I have decided at least to motivate our studies with Joseph with a real-life puzzle/problem when his language skills reach the point where I can converse with him.
In Christ,
Deborah
mom of Lisa 22, Katie 19, Kristin 17, and Joseph 5
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mom3aut1not
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Cay,
As for $72.95 for Mathematics A Human Endeavor, check out the Amazon.com Marketplace prices -- starting from $32 + $3.49 s/h. (For Erin the s/h would be more, but I don't know how much. Otoh, if she wanted to order from Singapore directly, the s/h would be much less in addition to lower prices for the books themselves.)
If it makes you feel any better, my dd's used textbooks (paperback) are often over $100.....
In Christ,
Deborah
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Rachel May
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Deborah,
I see through you! You are just trying to get me to define my goals again! Actually started working on them tonight....
From my understanding TAC is a "living books" type college which maybe leans towards the wild side of math? I know db likes the idea that math is connected to all things. I was listing math books for the state review tonight and included the music theory book and a kids' cookbook so I guess I'm similar to him. I may yet look at Saxon for the future (you have to appreciate books that make teaching easy), but for now I feel like there are so many great ideas here, I won't be running in that direction.
I'm so grateful for these forums that have so many suggestions for alternate routes. Defining my goals for our school tonight, I realized that what I really want for their education is proficiency at basics, like math, but also an enjoyment and love of learning which *I think* is fostered through the wilder methods. My own wonderful experience tells me that you can help kids want to learn Calculus past the first semester or read books like A Biography of Zero for fun. 
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Rachel
Thomas and Anthony (10), Maria (8), Charles (6), Cecilia (5), James (3), and Joseph (1)
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mom3aut1not
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Rachel May wrote:
Deborah,
I see through you! You are just trying to get me to define my goals again! Actually started working on them tonight....
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Aaah! I've been caught! Well, not really......
TAC is a great books curricuium, but imo they place too much emphasis on the ancient Greeks in math.... And if one "great bookie" I know is any indication, there is little interest in math as math, but as only as it touches on philosophy..... I sure hope that is not the case! (This "great bookie" also refuses to believe in the existence of infinite sets. <sigh>)
In Christ,
Deborah
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Erin
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| Posted: Nov 21 2005 at 3:15am | IP Logged
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Wow what great ideas from everyone.
Sorry I've been quite (pregnancy sickness finally hit0
Gwen, I do have 2 of the Family Maths sitting on my shelf  I had been thinking it was time I used them. I thought I might do them for the rest of this year during her time with me. What I've arranged is for dh to do maths with her for half an hour of a night to see if he can bring back her enthusiasm level. (He is a maths lover, loves playing with numbers, after all that is his career)
Macbeth, Human Endeavour sounds good. I'll keep it on the list if this idea of dh working with her doesn't work.
Deborah, Whilst Singapore Maths is great for the boys dd is not interested, She sees it as too easy, not enough problems. She likes something meatier, it is just that her current book is too meaty. I was most interested to read some of your thoughts on 'wild' maths. Dd is actually the child who was given the most hands on approach to maths when little (she was my first) I had time to do lots of manipulatives, we played with numbers all the time, read maths books for bed. I'm afraid the boys have been more the textbook approach. Yet in fact they would have benefitted more from 'wild maths' (I think a neat term)
Rachel. I am most interested in your brother's opinion. Why does he feel Saxon 'sucks out the soul?' and what approach would he recommend? Funnily enough my husband wasn't that excited about Saxon either. I do believe that to foster a love of maths it helps to connect it to all, to use 'wild maths'. I am seeing this at present with my ds10 who formally disliked maths, now that we are using a program that he finds unintimidating (SM) and have also begun using a literary appraoach, he actually says he gasp..'loves maths'  I was beginning to despair of this.
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Rachel May
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Erin,
I feel for you! I'm just coming out of 1st trimester nausea. I emailed my brother for more detailed info which will be very detailed. I'll post a cliffs notes version when he responds. Funny thing, I talked to my sister-in-law, his wife, today and her take is totally opposite. They have a BRILLIANT 6 yo who is in the 2nd grade, and I think she's just happy to send him off with a workbook (ABEKA) because she has 4 kids younger than he is and she's overwhelmed. Like Deborah's friend above, my SIL will be the mom who uses Saxon because it's easy for her to teach. However, with my influence, maybe she'll try a walk on the wild side... (That is a neat term)
It's great to hear that your 10 yo has turned around his attitude to math. Isn't homeschooling a blessing that way? You have that freedom to try to recapture your kid's attention instead of forcing something that doesn't work for him down his throat. Way to go!
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Rachel
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Bookswithtea
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I have a question about the Jacob's math book, if I may?
For the average student who will probably do Alg. 1 in the 9th grade, would the child still do Jacob's in the 7th grade? Is there a prealgebra book as well, or is this it before Algebra? Oh...and does it have a solutions manual, because I am going to need one! LOL
~Books
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ElisabethGrace
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I also have a question about the Jacobs book. My ds has just begun Saxon 76. We've used Saxon all the way through with him. He also enjoys reading living math books (Number Devil, Pappas books, etc.) for fun. He just turned 11 and we are "doing" 5th grade (at least that's what we tell people when they ask ). He actually enjoys Saxon, but I've often wondered if he would benefit from a different presentation as a supplement to Saxon.
So my question would be to MacBeth and anyone else who has used Jacobs, is this something that should wait until around 7th grade or could we look into using it now? I hate to buy another book that will just decorate the shelves if ds is too young for it.
Angela
Mommy to four, hoping for more!
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ElisabethGrace
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| Posted: Nov 22 2005 at 10:19am | IP Logged
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Oh No! I just went to MacBeth's website and now have a huge wish list of living math books!
MacBeth, have you use Calculus for Young People? I've had that on my "thinking to buy" list for several years now. I was also curious, do you own all of the books on your list. I was think you might have a great library near you! Ours is great if you want Goosebumps and movie star biographies!  I have to ILL the majority of the books I am interested in seeing. We have to pay a fee for ILL, so I like to purchase our books to build a good home library. (We live about 30 minutes from town and often I find that the dc interest in looking up something has waned if we have to wait to go into town to look in the library.)
Angela
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Rachel May
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Here is my brother John's response (in part) to my questions about concerns with Saxon and what sort of math curriculum he would advise. As background, he teaches Euclid (freshman math) at Thomas Aquinas College in California and is on the Admissions Committee where they often discuss with concern (according to him)the mathematical abilites of prospective students since TAC requires the equivalent of a minor in math. His personal experience with Saxon comes from both observation of his students and from teaching his wife high school level math with Saxon after they were married. (Her homeschooling experience was something like no schooling. )
After a quick intro he says, "Saxon does this sort of repetitive practice [of newly acquired skills RM] very thoroughly and efficiently, and those who give themselves to it seem to have a very sturdy foundation in mathematics. I am all for this.
At the same time, one must remember a distinction which is fundamental to all education: the distinction between knowledge which is worth pursuing for its own sake and knowledge which is for the sake of something other than knowledge, for the sake of some activity or product."
At that point he went into a long explanation about the difference between theoretical math (1st type of knowledge) and the "art of calculation" (2nd type of knowledge). He goes on to say:
"It has been our experience that Saxon is so effective at making students good calculators that many of them are unaware that there is another (some might call it "more philosophical") side of mathematics. This is not a universal problem, but there is some indication that Saxon is at least partially responsible for this."
He then says he's not an expert at early math formation yet (his oldest is 6) and exhorts me to be a parent instructor who is sensitive to each individual child's needs. He also says that the help of a consultant is key to evaluating different curriculum choices at different ages. (They use Mother of Divine Grace and because Laura Berquist knows them and likes their son, she asked to be their consultant). He's really just picking on me for not be registered with the school.
I did like his conclusion though.
"Finally, for all the importance of having an attitude of wonder towards all matters of learning, this wonder will look very different at different ages. At a younger age, children enjoy memorization and are good at it. Even at this age chidren should still ask questions and wonder why, but one emphasizes rote learning. This would be inappropriate at a later stage. By the college level, if one can't wonder about and understand what we are talking about, it does hardly any good to memorize what the correct answer is. I would think that a math curriculum for primary and secondary students would have to reflect these different intellectual stages. At one time, repition and memorization might be best, while the same could be poisonous later one."
I hope that helps. It certainly gave me something to think about!
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Rachel
Thomas and Anthony (10), Maria (8), Charles (6), Cecilia (5), James (3), and Joseph (1)
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4Real Forums : Living and Loving Numbers
Topic: Maths suggestions for grade 7 plse
