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teachingmyown
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| Posted: Sept 03 2008 at 2:09pm | IP Logged
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Today is my re-evaluate day. Pretty pitiful for day 2.
My 10 yr old ds is trying to finish up his 4th grade Singapore Math. He is working on dividing decimals today. I will do several problems with him and then let him try on his own. He says he forgets the steps, he forgets where to write each number, and he still struggles with his multiplication facts.
I am wondering if there is a program that would work better for him. Is TT 5 worth the investment? Is there enough drill and explanation for a learner like this?
Math is just so matter-of-fact for me that it is always hard when a child tells me he doesn't "get it". I mean, what's not to get? 
I have never done this level of a "hands-on" program like Math-U-See or Right Start. Honestly, I am not a hands-on teacher so I avoid those programs. So, I am not sure if this kid would benefit from that approach.
Any ideas?
Thanks!
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Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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Courtney
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Oh, Molly! I almost wrote the same thing about my 10yo dd! She's in 4A of Singapore and today we had a struggle with factors and multiples. I started searching for where to go next! We used MUS through Delta last year and then switched. She was burnt out on MUS b/c it covered the same concept all year long. I'm thinking about developmental math, but I'm wondering where to start. She had a short division problem today, like 45 divided by 3, and couldn't remember how to do it.  I'm open to suggestions as well!
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cvbmom
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I've written about it before, and no, I don't get any perks for mentioning it  , but when we need to learn a new concept or need extra practice in an area, Math Mammoth is really good and affordable . I think I read somewhere on her site maybe (HomeschoolMath.net) that she thinks very highly of Singapore Math and thinks her books are a good supplement. Maybe that helps?
God bless,
Christine
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Cay Gibson
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Molly and Courtney,
I sighed a big sigh of relief when I read your posts. My 10 yr old 5th grader is still struggling with factors and multiples as well. We began that two years ago in 3rd grade. I've tried all the drills and bought all the games and tried all the computer games.
I've repeatedly told her she must work to memorize her tables. There's no other way.
She's a very smart little girl...reads at a high school level...so I constantly think I'm the one doing something wrong in our math center . I've been known to have a mental block against math myself. 
I will say that using TT 5 has helped her to improve these skills so I'm hopeful that by year's end we'll have those math skills downpat.
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Cay Gibson
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Courtney
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Thank you, Christine! I just bookmarked the mathmammoth site. I definitely think it will help.
Cay, it is nice to know I'm not alone! Our dd's sound similar in many ways! Today we did a poetry unit and worked on acrostics. Candace went in the office and composed and typed hers in a matter of minutes while I pulled the ideas out of ds's head. She would spend all day writing if I let her! Maybe I should !
Just last week I was looking at TT5. I may see how the next few weeks go with math mammoth as an aide to Singapore. If we're still hitting a wall, I may have to check into TT5 again!
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Courtney in Texas
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teachingmyown
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Thanks Christine, I will check out Mammoth Math.
Cay, what does TT do differently to reinforce concepts such as this? We try to do a lot of repetition, but then I lose him because he is frustrated and bored. Sell me on TT! It won't be hard, I already have the webpage up, I am just stuck on the price tag.
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Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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ALmom
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I think 5th grade is a normal slow down year with the Singapore program. There are also a few things that don't have much explanation about them so be sure to watch closely. When we hit a wall, we simply put Singapore aside and pull out manipulatives, other programs and/or additional practice until I know that the concept is learned in depth and all the base things are there - like multiplication facts. My 6th grader is finishing up 5B and we just set the book aside again and pulled out MUS manipulatives and practice problems for fractions. He did them, seemed to understand them before when they came up, but obviously not or he would have remembered - so we are revisiting the material and are not moving into % of a number until I am absolutely convinced he knows fractions inside out. This is normal in math. Just like you tell children that you revise, edit, revise many times in writing a paper. It is plain and simply just normal to have to slow down from time to time on a concept to make sure it really sticks. Math is like a house of cards and if the base isn't enough to support the top, it will all come tumbling down unless you reinforce. This does not mean the child is not good or talented in math. They just need to look at something from a fresh angle to reinforce that base.
My children and I did not care for MUS as a complete program but since I already have the material, it is really great for presenting a concept. The big key is to find a different way to present - check what you have on hand first and go with the cheapest and easiest. For multiplication, we pulled out an idea from CHC and set all the boys on a game of math baseball and harnessed that competitive spirit. As I recall, we have pulled out MUS consistently for long division and fractions. I rarely use the tapes - just the manipulatives and explanations and the practice problems. There are some sheets in the TM that have mulitiple problems on a page. I simply look up in the index for all the places that something about fractions is introduced - pull those sheets out, sit down once with my children and the manipulatives and show them. Then set them free with some pages of practice problems. They are free to use the manipulatives. I watch to see when they naturally drop the manipulatives as that is usually a sign that they've discovered or gotten the concept. I spot check again with problems without manipulatives and then we move back to where we left off in Singapore.
When there is a glitch it helps to know what it is. Definitely make sure the multiplication facts are well known - but the other thing that sometimes confuses folks is the memorizing all those steps without realizing why you do it. MUS had a unique way of having them write and add all the place value stuff until they actually saw/discovered the long division shortcut themselves. Two of mine needed that to help them figure out long division - now they divide with all the shortcuts like anyone else, but at the time they made the oddest errors. We used MUS and they were so excited to discover the rules for long division themselves and suddenly no longer had memory lapses.
My children almost laugh now when I pull that stack of manipulatives out. You gotta understand why you're doing what you're doing and be able to explain it to me .
Janet
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Cay Gibson
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Molly,
I'm not sure what it is about TT that has aided Chelsea's memorization. Perhaps it's just the two years of constant study that is finally paying off.
We (the children and I) love TT because it explains the problems step-by-step-by-step AND it gives you not only the visual but the audio as well. And it isn't Mom's voice. For some reason that makes a difference when it comes to explaining Math in this household .
My 15 yr old has come to me more than once and said, "I finally get this!" or "I understand how to work such-and-such now."
Music to my ears.
Even my parents were impressed with TT.
That said, I agree completely with what Janet wrote and you still need to throw in some manipulatives at this age. Some one-on-one interaction outside of the computer. I'm no math teacher and never claimed to be one. The high schoolers know to go to dad...or Kayleigh...for their math. This is where I plan to use those nice little gnomes with both my girls...to strengthen all our math basics and understanding. Those beautiful litle shiny gems will come in great for "showing" multiplication basics.
That's another thing...I think it's pretty easy for children to understand why they multiple. There's a constant "real life" dialogue of "Kroger allowed us to purchase five pieces of Branch's candy with a quarter. There are three of us. Divide it equally with your sister. I'll pass. Oh, there's one left (a remainder). Mom will take that one."
Or while slicing an apple, our apple cutter cuts out ten slices. Or there are ten cookies left in the jar.
It's an easy concept for children to understand because they live it everyday. It's also easy to learn the 0, 1, 2, 5, 6 (if you know the 5s), 10, 11, 12 (if you know the 11s), and my children know the secret for figuring out the 9 tables.
But the 3, 4, 6, 7, 8 have to be memorized. One would think all that poetry memorization would make it easier but my children are like me...memorizing words is a beautiful thing. Numbers, beautiful?
Again, those gnomes are the first thing of "beauty" I've discovered in explaining math. So those are our hands-on manipulatives.
You're right, Molly. Math is so "matter-of-fact", it's also very logical thinking. An example of logic in my house was when my 11th grader took logic. I gave him the workbook and we couldn't understand it. I ended up opening the teacher's manual for both of us and we both kind of looked at each other with a glazed expression over our eyes.
Can we learn it? Yes, indeed. It just doesn't come easy.
But I do see the beauty in a well-trained, logical math brain. I have two of those in my household and often wish I was so blessed. They seem to have it easier in this modern, technilogical, high-math world we live in.
Probably not the sales pitch you asked for but I'm not good at that either. I will say that I was stuck on the price tag as well. For a year! I should have ordered it when I first heard about it. I've gone through the archieves here and find no negatives on it. That's a pretty good track record and sales pitch right there.
What TT does for this household is allow us to move on with no guilt. Perhaps that's why, until Gustav delayed school for us the 3rd week, our first two weeks of school were so flawlessly beautiful. Math is covered, God bless TT. I no longer "worry" about covering math. I've paid the price, yes, but I'm getting my money's worth.
Of course, some people have said this with MUS as well so I can't say TT is the end-all for all families...or all children. I can say that with your either children, it will definitely "work" for one of them. You won't have wasted a cent.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
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Cay Gibson
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Cay Gibson wrote:
| I can say that with your either children, it will definitely "work" for one of them. |
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What the hey! did I mean by that. Of course I meant your "eight" children.
Also, I wanted to mention how crisis friendly TT is. We were evacuated last Saturday due to Hurricane Gustav. The family camp in North LA has no phone line, no cable, and no Internet. 
Still, I have precious files on my computer (also on my memory bar) but we simply loaded up the computer with us...and our TT discs. And the books. Garrett hooked the computer up and we didn't miss a day of Math until the electricity went out. Then we still had the books (though we didn't do anything that day except pack up and come home). We haven't needed our books yet but I realized how nice they are to have for emergencies like this.
I also want to say that because of my older children, I didn't have to purchase many books this year. You're probably in the same situation. Except for some "want that" books, our school money went towards TT. It was our only "big" expense.
Would I advice purchasing TT if you are in a financial crunch? Hmmmm. Probably not.
Then again, what price tag do you put on the lobe of your child's mind that is ripe soil for this math field of learning?
Hard call. I would still get it. I would ask the grandparents or delay ordering other books just so I could buy them. But I wouldn't tell someone else to do that. Putting things on the credit card is a bad "math decision" all the way around.
Perhaps use those gnomes instead. And you have a generous amount of math invested already in your household. Perhaps selling that would give you the money you need to try TT. Like I said, one of your children will use it and it will work for them.
Still...I can't speak for your family and I'm probably going over the top in suggesting it. But it's so Mom & kid-friendly. I wish I could send you ours to try.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
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Cay Gibson
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Molly,
Yes, it's *me* again.
Never mind me. I'm just using your question and this forum to wrap my little brain around the past several years of trial-and-error regarding our journey finding the perfect math program. 
I just read this blog post by Kim Fry: Too Much of a Good Thing which basically sums up the beauty and finality of TT for me.
Like I said, this is "my" experience. It might help someone else to read it but please don't read it as though it were written for your family.
Several things spoke to me in Kim's post but the most concise is that TT allowed me to "declutter" that area of our life and our hsing which has been so burdensome.
For all our hsing years Math has been the crux of my existence. It's the one subject I dreaded and the one subject I feared my children would be forever illiterate in.
I don't think that's the same in your home, Molly. You seem to have a grasp of Math and its inner workings. My public school education and my love of reading seriously hindered my understanding of math skills.
As of Jan. '08, this area of my life has been purged. It is no longer cluttersome or burdensome. It no longer constricts my planning or keeps me awake at night. We are able to give our all to TT and do that in peace.
My children actually feel they have a superior grasp of math. I do too.
Purchasing TT gave me the liberty to get rid (yes, get rid of) all my other Math curriculum. We've decluttered physically as well as mentally. No longer do I have piles of unfinished math workbooks, unused used math books, stacks of complicated math worksheets. We only have this slim & trim folder with four CD-Roms in it and the math book tucked inside the computer desk.
Excuse my rambling but I just wanted to share the revelation I had when I read Kim's post and applied it to this subject. It revealed to me why TT has so blessed my homeschool. Because it freed us from all the excessive excess that was holding us back. And that's a good thing...for us.
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Cay Gibson
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donnalynn
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If I am looking at the right program - TT (Teaching Textbooks?) costs well over $100?
If that's a little pricey for you - I'd like to suggest the
Key to...series by Key Curriculum Press - these have been just great for us and are not at all expensive. They are laid out nicely with little distraction. Very step-by-step. Both my girls work through them independently - I review and correct their work and we go over any trouble spots together.
I think they do need a little something to go with them - living math books for instance. We are using the "Life of Fred" Books once they have completed the Key to series for a given topic. I think 5th grade is the perfect time to start the Key to books.
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sarahb
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Nothing frustrated my 11 yo like the Key To Fractions books. It starts with factors and multiples and the two of us nearly ripped our hair out. Why would they teach multiplying fractions before adding?
We love TT here. We started TT5 is april and even tho we have taken some of the summer off we are half way finished with the program.
Ds still hates math but there is no battle and there is no more "oh no, I explained it all wrong" from me and no more all confused kid either.
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Courtney
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Well, I did it. I ordered TT5 today. Better days are hopefully ahead!
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Courtney in Texas
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teachingmyown
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Well, I didn't want to respond until I was sure Cay was done!
Thanks Cay, Janet, Sarah and Donna! We have done the Key to series with my older two. Neither particularly liked it and I am not sure about their retention. Again, being math minded, it just seems so cut and dry to me.
I think I will order TT5. I have five more kids after this one, including a six year old who might get to that level by the end of the year!! I have to create ways to keep her busy, so tears through everything I give her.
Part of the problem with TT is that we already have a logger jam at the computer. Our schedule will have to be much stricter to make sure everyone gets his or her work done.
Thanks again.
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In Christ,
Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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teachingmyown
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Alright, the order is placed! I'll update you on our progress.
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In Christ,
Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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folklaur
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Now I feel really bad. My ds9 wouldn't even have tested into the level 2 Singapore - and he isn't bad at Math - but I AM bad at teaching it, I am finding out. 
I am using Math-U-see now - BUT I got the old sets (Foundations) so it covers everything - not just one concept like Addition or whatnot. I am not sure yet how I like it. I was really hoping TT was going to come out with their 4th grade, but when I asked they had pushed it back. He told me today he likes MUS - whew! - and so I will stick with it until TT comes out with his level.
For my dd6 - I got the Noble Knights of Knowledge after all (NKoK) it uses gems, knights, animals figures, etc. I can share more once we receive it.
My kids must be SO FAR behind in Math.
oh, dear....
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Cay Gibson
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cactus mouse wrote:
Now I feel really bad. My kids must be SO FAR behind in Math.
oh, dear....
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Oh, Laura, I hope it wasn't my babbling that made you feel bad. Honestly, if anyone's children are behind in math, it's mine. 
But TT has given me hope.
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Cay Gibson
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ahappyheart
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Molly,
We use Math U See and really like it. We switched over last year from Abeka. I don't know if it will help or if it's good for your little one but thought I would tell you our experience.
Susan Marie
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teachingmyown
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Thanks Susan Marie!
I just realized that I still have Right Start B on my shelf, so I can use that with my 3rd graders. This might all fall into place after all!
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In Christ,
Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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ALmom
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Do not feel badly at all. My child who is now doing 5B started with 2A not that long ago, honestly. I think he was 4th grade. (There is one concept in the Singapore 4th grade text that is not explained at all in either the TB or the WB so watch for it. I don't remember what it is but I do remember my son's utter frustration over that section and he came to me to prove that it hadn't been taught anywhere. He was correct. Anyways, I consider this child fine in math, and didn't sweat the testing at 2A in Singapore. Some of it is just a different way of presenting things and yes, if a concept is already deeply learned, the difference in presentation doesn't throw them. But we had been using American programs before that (ie Saxon) where repetition and not depth is the methodology. We just started with 2A. It didn't take long at all for the concepts to solidfy once we switched to Singapore. None of my children were all that thrown by the grade level placement. Guess they are so used to me using stuff from all over the spectrum grade wise. (I generally ignore grade level and do what I know the children need). In any case, this particular child is my amazing science fan who is trying to do Physical Science text (by request) and seems to get math in science context more than in the book.
I guess because I am a math person it is much easier for me to be laid back, use whatever and feel confident with math. If you take the same attitude you take with those subjects you are more comfortable with and just keep working from wherever your child is at, the forward progress is fine.
Writers do better with practice, but they have to feel successful and not forever frustrated at first. It has taken me a lot longer to figure out how to help my children realize revision is normal - and find the right balance to where they write without stress. (But the thing that has helped me the most is to recognize that teaching someone how to write isn't in my comfort zone at all and it is worth it to get someone to do the paper grading so that they are in essence teaching the children the finer points of writing and I can just enjoy what they have written. My children enjoy writing more now that I'm not the nit pick and can just compliment and they aren't getting my stress vibes).
If those of you who are math phobic as teachers, think about how you approach the subjects you find more enjoyable, you'll get an idea - and like Cay pointed out - you recognize what will take the stress away from you, so the children get beyond your panic and know it is okay to hit plateaus, to take a bit of time to let concepts solidify, to use what you just learned how to do in real life, and all that other stuff we really know.
Just as some folks read at 4 and some at 10 - some concepts will solidfy for different children at different ages. Having a solid base will be much more beneficial than barreling through to the end of a workbook, textbook or program (no matter how wonderful the program).
Janet
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4Real Forums : Living and Loving Numbers
Topic: 5th grade math for struggling learner
