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Mackfam
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| Posted: May 28 2008 at 6:24pm | IP Logged
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I have a few more questions about Math for next year as I narrow down my choices. I have really benefitted from the conversation here, but I had a few more specific questions and thought I'd start a new thread.
So last year was a big experiment for us. I had been using some Montessori in our home for the past 9 years, but in a relaxed, sort of uncommitted way. Then, along came my 7yo and I realized that I needed to buckle down and get my hands into this. I did and I have been so pleased with the results I have seen in ALL of my children. So...while I spent a great deal of time focusing on philosophy and basic materials last year, this year I'm trying to provide a little more guidance for myself in an attempt to ensure that I'm not just willy-nilly all over the place with presentations and concepts...particularly in math.
I know what I hate in Elementary Math - Saxon, MCP, Horizons...not that they're bad...they just don't work for us.
I'd like a bit more of a rudder this year - for me. I'm considering the Math R & D manuals and Right Start Math. I saw on an old thread that montessori_lori has Schiller Math.
I suppose Right Start is most appealing. I don't have every single Montessori Math material. I think I'm comfortable with the materials I have - I don't really want to spend any more $ on them, and I can't store much more. But I go back and forth. Maybe I should just purchase the R&D manuals and use them - omitting (or adapting to fit) the presentations that call for materials I don't have.
I'll be working with a very math minded 7yo, and a 3 1/2 yo who is ready for an introduction to numbers and math - so I'd need to order early childhood and elementary manuals if I decide on the R&D manuals. Also, I'd really like to do a bit more basic geometry with my 11yo as we are starting a slow and relaxed start into Algebra next year. I really like the looks of Right Start Geometry.
I really feel strongly about being consistent with an approach, so I've been considering this all year, but I can't seem to decide which approach I want to pursue and invest in.
Any thoughts you have would be greatly appreciated - and Lori, if you pop in, I'd love to hear what you thought of Schiller Math...I had a really hard time figuring anything out on their site.
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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Mackfam
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| Posted: May 28 2008 at 6:28pm | IP Logged
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 Good grief...was that as clear as mud??
I was typing my question out fast as the baby is waking up and I need to get to dinner...I hope someone understands what I was asking. I'm sorry it reads so muttled!
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: May 28 2008 at 6:51pm | IP Logged
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Ok, IMHO you should order the R&D manuals and keep chugging away with the Montessori stuff.You already have a lot of the materials, and they are working for your children.
My grandma always said "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
What it seems you desire is some sort of cohesive plan to follow. The R&D manuals should help you there, plus getting some sort of checklist, like th ones Lori has (though I have not seen them I have heard only positives on them) or the ones I have which are free from Maitri Learning
Anyway, those are just my quick thoughts.
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
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AndreaG
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| Posted: May 28 2008 at 6:58pm | IP Logged
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Jennifer, I cut and pasted your questions on RightStart math from the other thread:
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| How do you use it alongside Montessori? Do you follow the program and then at common sense points stop and offer a presentation aligning with the same concept? |
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This is exactly what I do. Actually, for 3-6 I use just Montessori. This year my son was 6 and in Kindergarten. I used RightStart A, but also had golden beads, bead chains, hundred board etc out on the shelves and gave presentations on them. With my older son (3rd grade) I just pulled out the Montessori materials when they made sense- bead chains when we did skip counting, bead bars for multiplication,etc.
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| Does it make sense to align it with Montessori presentations or would that be redundant? |
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I actually align the presentations with Right Start, that's why I use it to give me an order and structure to present math. I could have bought elementary math albums, but I liked RightStart better.
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| In what way is it teacher intensive? Do you have to read a lesson before you present? Gather materials? Have devoted time to sit down face to face and present a lesson? |
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You need the devoted face to face time. The lessons are fairly scripted and well layed out, so there in minimal prep time (that was another advantage for me over montessori presentations, I never had enough time to prepare them). But it isn't a program you can hand to a child and have them do, or even just oversee them as they work on it.
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| How long do you usually spend on a lesson block? |
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Well my son gets frustrated with log lesson so we follow the charlotte mason 20 minutes! We do almost a year round schedule, usually about half a lesson a day.
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| How many times a week do you use Right Start versus just offering Montessori choice time? |
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I use RightStart daily for first grade and up. For 6 and under its more of a choice time thing, ie "do you want to a lesson?"
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| Since I know both of you like Montessori Math materials - what is it about Right Start that attracts you and keeps you instead of just using a pure Montessori presentation approach? |
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For me I was comfortable with "the full monty"  for ages 3-6, but with my elementary kids I doubted my ability to research, plan and implement presentations and I worried by children's education would suffer due to my incompetence.  RightStart has it all done for you. Of course you lose the Montessori follow the child element, but I haven't had a problem with slowing it down or speeding up based on their capabilities and interests.
All in all, I was willing to sacrifice the pure Montessori approach (which I think is wonderful) for a program that was more affordable, had all the manipulatives, and was easy to use, and still had the wonderful hands-on approach of montessori. The nice thing is I can experiment with Montessori presentations, and who knows maybe ditch the RightStart with some future child.
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Andrea
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Mackfam
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| Posted: May 29 2008 at 2:55pm | IP Logged
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That was very helpful Andrea, and you hit just about every reason I'm drawn to this program.
Still struggling with this decision though...Donna Marie? Are you around?
Anybody else at all????
I lean towards Theresa's suggestion to just stick with what's working, and then I lean back to everything that attracts me to Right Start. I wish I could see the R&D manuals.
I'm all ears if anyone else has any input!
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Jen Mackintosh
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Wildflowers and Marbles
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Donna Marie
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| Posted: May 29 2008 at 3:54pm | IP Logged
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Mackfam wrote:
Still struggling with this decision though...Donna Marie? Are you around?
Anybody else at all????
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Hi! I am here..running in and out mostly. I have a hard time with sleeping and adrenaline this pregnancy (like I wrote on my blog) so I am between taking care of me...surfing here for encouragement and inspiration for next year...and trying to keep the house afloat...longing to make my new materials...nest..etc.....never a dull moment! Sooo...If I miss something...keep after me!
Mackfam wrote:
I'm sitting on the fence with Right Start. I do like the program. I'd like to know a couple of things...
Specifically...
How do you use it alongside Montessori? Do you follow the program and then at common sense points stop and offer a presentation aligning with the same concept?
Does it make sense to align it with Montessori presentations or would that be redundant?
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I follow the scripted RS plans. I am always looking ahead a few lessons and I peruse my R&D manual (or the free ones online) for lessons I might want to flesh out more. This isn't necessary, but I like it and the kids like it...it satisfies the inner Montessori-wannabe in me 
Mackfam wrote:
In what way is it teacher intensive? Do you have to read a lesson before you present? Gather materials? Have devoted time to sit down face to face and present a lesson?
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You have to READ it...it is really simple... but because I am so visual I would rather just glance at the page. It isn't bad at all...especially after you already went through it once, like I have. I usually read ahead as I am doing the lesson or right after I am done. I keep a 3 ring notebook open all of the time whenever I teach to jot down observations and ideas. (I always THINK I will remember, but when you really calculate how many things I respond to on any given day, it is amazing I even remember what my name is...) I found the toughest thing for me was cutting out distractions so I was sticking with it for the full time. Not answering the phone or making sure my chores were done before school helped ME to concentrate more. The teacher-intensive part was me trying to concentrate...it really wasn't that bad..I mostly had to START!...does that make any sense?
I had to gather some materials ahead because several of them were under bunk beds and the couch The materials mostly stay together now...I have one of those pull-out plastic drawers with the larger materials in it and a large tackle box with the cards and other manipulatives in it. The tackle box travels well...
I was getting frustrated at first because everyone was at a different level. I solved this by having my older ones assist my younger ones at times. I would give my 12 yo ds (for example) the rules for a card game and let him play with one child while I worked with another on a different level...this worked out well. Keep in mind that I have 6 children "doing school" and 1 wannabe schoolie 3yo! I now have 3 children in RS and one of my 14yo dds who had problems with math the first time around is learning to be my assistant. really, by doing this she is learning new strategies to facilitate REMEMBERING which is something she struggles with when it comes to spelling and math facts retention.
(I did step away from Right Start for a time to use Math-U-See because of the videos and I needed time to get my act together because I was behind in everything. I really missed it and we are right back to using it.)
Mackfam wrote:
How long do you usually spend on a lesson block?
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Really it is dependent on the child. If they are really into it we can spend a long time, but usually about 15-20 minutes
Mackfam wrote:
How many times a week do you use Right Start versus just offering Montessori choice time?
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There are always Montessori items out on the shelf and they are free to "play" with them whenever they want. I usually call for table time and we sit down together and do Right Start at that time. I try to do RS first thing after devotions in the morning as they seem to enjoy a good level of concentration at that hour. They then will take on some of the shelf work while i work on phonics/ reading type activities with any one of them. They usually do this right by me so I am just assisting and supervising the lot of them.
Just so you can imagine the general flow of how I spend my time, I am more apt to do work with the older kids more towards noonish. (During the morning period the older kiddoes are doing independent items.)
Mackfam wrote:
Since I know both of you like Montessori Math materials - what is it about Right Start that attracts you and keeps you instead of just using a pure Montessori presentation approach?
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hmmm...I like that it teaches the children HOW to think in math terms that are tangible to them. They can easily visualize what is going on and understand the why math works the way it does. I can't do everything in a Montessorial way...I just don't have that kind of time. Considering that in the years I have been using it, I have had several difficult pregnancies, nursing infants...toddlers! and various distractions, this program keeps me on track and allows me the flexibility to be creative with materials and presentations when I can and just stick to the plan when I can't. I like the overall effect it has had in our learning..and my teaching too.
I hope I was clear enough...I honestly have soo much running through my brain and I am longing for my long walk to clear my thoughts!
Let me know if I can be of any further help. I know I have some of Dr. Cotter's conference cassette's around here somewhere...I would not mind loaning them to you if you would like!
God love you!
Donna Marie from NJ
hs momma to 7dc +one more due 10/08!
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Donna Marie from NJ
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Mackfam
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| Posted: May 29 2008 at 5:15pm | IP Logged
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Donna Marie,
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond in such detail! That was extremely helpful for me. You brought up a point that I had almost forgotten about. (nursing brain drain) I am concerned about consistency, particularly during times of total chaos - like when I'm  pregnant ! I had to drop all Montessori the first part of this year and strip everything else down to bare minimum. I do like that having a more structured curriculum can offer me a safety net of sorts - in the hopes that Katie isn't the last and, that I would still be able to incorporate many of our Montessori presentations and materials into a Montessori-friendly curriculum.
Donna Marie wrote:
| I am always looking ahead a few lessons and I peruse my R&D manual (or the free ones online) for lessons I might want to flesh out more. This isn't necessary, but I like it and the kids like it...it satisfies the inner Montessori-wannabe in me |
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This is good to know - and how I envisioned using it. So, do you have the R&D manuals? Which math manuals do you have?
Donna Marie wrote:
| I found the toughest thing for me was cutting out distractions so I was sticking with it for the full time. Not answering the phone or making sure my chores were done before school helped ME to concentrate more. The teacher-intensive part was me trying to concentrate...it really wasn't that bad..I mostly had to START!...does that make any sense? |
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Yes! It makes perfect sense! It is my biggest challenge. If I haven't tended to keeping order and routine, my day spirals before it begins and I am unable to focus or be truly present to anyone else's needs during the day in the way I should - whether at lesson time or elsewhere.
Donna Marie wrote:
| she is learning new strategies to facilitate REMEMBERING which is something she struggles with when it comes to spelling and math facts retention. |
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A hope I had as well. I'm glad to hear this is working for her and you in this way!
Donna Marie wrote:
| I can't do everything in a Montessorial way...I just don't have that kind of time. Considering that in the years I have been using it, I have had several difficult pregnancies, nursing infants...toddlers! and various distractions, this program keeps me on track and allows me the flexibility to be creative with materials and presentations when I can and just stick to the plan when I can't. |
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This sums up my needs and wants so well.
Thank you so much again for responding. I had my husband (an engineer and math major) take a look at the program last night. He was very impressed with the approach and entire program. I think this is where I'm leaning. I do like the idea of having the R&D manuals in hand to look ahead and plan additional reinforcing presentations. I don't want to give up that Montessori approach - I have seen the fruits of it!
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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SeaStar
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| Posted: May 29 2008 at 6:24pm | IP Logged
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Jennifer-
Thank you for starting this thread! It has been enormously helpful to me. I have also been contemplating trying RS for math. Going full Montessori at my house was going along so well, and then we hit a major bump in the road with dd's illness, and I could see that I need some type of program that gives me more guidance and help- vs. me trying to figure out all the math presentations and then making/buying the materials.
I love the hands on Montessori approach. I hope that RS will give us a happy medium and take some pressure off me in the planning department.
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Melinda, mom to ds ('02) and dd ('04)
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CathinCoffeland
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| Posted: May 30 2008 at 12:14am | IP Logged
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I know others have enjoyed the Schiller but I have been really frustrated with it.
The manuals and student texts dont quite match and The teacher manuals are scripted but the script doesnt always make sense. And frankly I dont thhink the materials are a very high quailty.
I have had a lot of trouble with customer service too.
It is the only Homeschool activity that starts an argument everytime. Usually ending with dd in tears.
I bought it 2 years ago hoping to save money to not go full Montessori- guess what we are doing this year ;)
The only thing she loves about the program is the materials i find her ds working independently a lot wit them...grr i should have just bought all the golden beads 2 yrs ago
I have been looking at the rd mauals too :) a mom in my hs group has it and im going to see her over the summer to see her "present" all the materials to me.
just my experience though I have talked to those who love it.
Right start is very popular too in my hs group. Those who have it rave.
Maggie
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Karen T
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| Posted: May 30 2008 at 12:58pm | IP Logged
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I am strongly leaning toward Right Start next year for my dd, who will turn 7 in Sept. This past year we have been doing Miquon with both her and ds, who is 8. Ds was already slightly ahead of her at the beginning of the year, but quickly outpaced her. He "gets" it most of the time with very little input from me - he's doing fractions, division, etc. With dd I have had to stop Miquon completely several times due to meltdown/overload and wait for her to grow a bit, then resume. In between, she would work some in the MCP book (K level) just for practice. she is not a visual learner from what I can tell, much more auditory. But I am hoping RS will work b/c of the way it teaches them to think in terms of 5's and 10's. These are concepts that most math lovers discover on their own, but it's completely foreign to her at this point. She still counts up or down for *everything*
Here is my big question (in addition to any advice overall on RS) - should I use it for both kids or keep ds in Miquon, since it is working so well for him? I hate the idea of having 2 completely different programs going even if they are on different levels. OTOH, he usually needs very little input from me on Miquon, though I don't know how long that will continue (he's near the end of the blue book, the 3rd one)
I've just ordered the games to play with dd this summer to hopefully get her over her "math phobia." (we will also be doing The Phonics Game, which is ds's weakness)
Maybe I should add that I've never done any Montessori type stuff, although I've read several books and understand the basics. I noticed most of you in this thread are using some Montessori.
Karen T
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Mackfam
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| Posted: May 30 2008 at 5:47pm | IP Logged
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Melinda,
I really feel the same way as you. I think RS will offer that Montessori type approach while offering me a little "got-your-back" kind of security both in terms of consistency of approach and in case of crisis (which seems to be every other day around here right now.)
I've sort of decided to do both approaches...I'm hoping to get a couple of the R&D manuals to back up the presentations I already have (online and here) for supplementing, and I'm ordering Right Start A, D and Geometry as well as the transition lessons. This has been a really helpful thread to me, too!!
Maggie,
Thanks for your take on Schiller!
Karen,
I have no big advice on what to do with both kids. I do understand the frustration of going back and forth between two different curriculums, but I have also seen with my children how they each have different learning styles. I'd hate to advise you to ditch something that is working so well with your son. Perhaps just keeping him in Miquon for next year, or even the first half of next year while you sort of feel him out in RS. There isn't that much age difference between your son and daughter, and certainly he will observe RS lessons with your dd. If he responds and seems eager, make the switch.
I certainly think you can do RS with no Montessori experience. I was looking for a little Montessori input because it is something I would like to continue even if I move math to a more curriculum centered approach, BUT you certainly don't need to add to or supplement any Montessori to this program. The reason I really like this program is that it facilitates those same *connections* that a Montessori approach offers.
Thanks so much everyone! It was really helpful to talk this out and get your input about how you used this alongside Montessori, and to confirm which of the materials from RS I will substitute with my Montessori materials. 
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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4Real Forums : Living and Loving Numbers
Topic: Montessori Math
