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JSchaaf
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| Posted: Oct 10 2006 at 11:18am | IP Logged
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My girls are 7 and 6. They know how to form all the letters and just need to work on neatness. We are diligently trudging through Handwriting 2 by Seton. BORING! I guess I'm looking for approval to ditch handwriting as a "subject" and just work on it through copywork. BUT, cursive is introduced halfway through the book.
Is cursive necessary?
What ages should they begin learning cursive? My eldest wants to learn Spencerian penmanship-I was going to get her the instruction book and just let her work on it as she wants to. Does she still need regular cursive?
What I want to hear is that is ok to ditch cursive, too. I have bad memories of staying after school everyday in 3rd grade to practice cursive and then being graded down in 4th, 5th, and 6th for poor cursive. And then in 7th grade it didn't seem to matter anymore! So what's the point??
Jennifer
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Dawnie
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| Posted: Oct 10 2006 at 12:43pm | IP Logged
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Jennifer,
You know, I've been having the same thoughts! I started out this year having my 7yod work on a page out of Writing Can Help every day, but then I realized that she really gets plenty of practice in doing her other written work and any copywork I give her. I think the handwriting books are helpful for when a child is learning to form letters, and even then, you could probably do just as well w/o a workbook. My 7yod just needs to work on neatness, too, and I think that copywork plus the other written work she does will eventually help her reach that goal.
As for cursive...we are using CHC and their 2nd grade lesson plans suggest teaching cursive this year...however, I don't think my 7yod is ready for cursive yet and I'm planning on waiting a year or two. I would like to see her neatness in printing improve before I start teaching her cursive. Or maybe I'll just wait until she wants to learn it herself. FWIW, I learned cursive in 3rd grade.
In the long run, does it really matter WHEN they learn cursive? By the time my kids are 18, it won't matter whether they learned cursive in 3rd grade or 5th grade, as long as their writing is legible.
Dawn
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ALmom
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| Posted: Oct 10 2006 at 12:50pm | IP Logged
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I'm coming at it from a different angle, I suppose so take what I say with a grain of salt and realize that it comes from needing to develop eye-hand in our house.
I thought it made sense to have the children print as they learned the letter sounds - a sort of reinforcement. Since most of mine had vision problems, we had major reversals and the physical act of writing helped lock in the concept. They also needed the practice.
However, I have never been a neatness freak - it must be basically legible, and their best reasonable work. I do think the practice of writing every single day is important. Whether that is done in copywork, dictation, story writing, etc., I don't think really matters. Once there is a habit of correctly forming letters, then I'm not sure hw, per sey is that important other than that they actually do write. With my boys, we have to use something that they know is short (ie handwriting is only 5 - max. of 10 minutes per day)to actually pay attention to writing neatly. Otherwise, they simply scrawl - anything written takes them so much time and they need practice to make it easy, and quick for them. Without building handwriting speed, they continue to avoid anything written. In my case, that handwriting as handwriting serves a purpose and keeps us moving forward.
The cursive writing is important - learning to write strokes, to make the connections smooth and to recognize how to read it. Again, I want a certain legibility, but I don't beat them over perfection. I've seen a big difference from simply practicing and learning how to make those connections. I have one child that so struggles with writing that I've told him not to worry about the extra loops, etc.
Now, that being said, I have some major complaints against most handwriting books I've seen. First, a lot of them do not teach the cursive connections so the child and parent are just frustrated trying to figure how to do it. Most handwriting books are way too small to start with. They seem to get smaller every year. If you start learning cursive with too small a print, you simply "teach" your children to have tense hands, the opposite of what you really need for fluidity and speed without becoming unreadable. We have found a handwriting that we like (Kolbe) that we like - but still we have our child write in the air, then on a seperate piece of paper that has the spacing appropriate for our child. I love the CHC handwriting in terms of what they write since it seems more interesting. I hate it in terms of how small and how little instruction there is. I'm not familiar with Seton.
Anyways, that is just my 2 cents based on our own family's unique needs. (I am still doing handwriting in 6th grade but it is because we have a need to keep at it). Very short is the key here.
Janet
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vmalott
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| Posted: Oct 10 2006 at 6:56pm | IP Logged
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I definitely don't have the answers here...not that you were really asking a question. I'd say, if you're not enrolled in Seton and your girls aren't having difficulty forming letters, then I'd be drawn to doing just copywork. My girls (12 and 7) don't have the same issues as my boys, so copywork seems to work well for them. My 7yo is working in the Memoria Press copybook II which I really like. So far, so good.
Since we're on this issue of handwriting, I though I'd share my woe. My oldest son is 10 years old and has horrible handwriting. For a while, I just kind of shrugged it off as a developmental thing, but he's 10 now, and his handwriting just stinks! Part of it is he just doesn't seem to care. This carelessness is carrying over into his math work, where he will miss a digit in his computations or something and winds up with the wrong answer. Then he gives me the excuses... ::sigh::
I'm totally frustrated now and am really thinking about backtracking to try to unlearn those bad habits and carelessness. The math issue really has me bothered, esp. since I know he's capable of doing the math, but is making mistakes because of the poor handwriting. I've looked into Handwriting Without Tears again, and I've ordered it WITH the teacher's guide this time. I've also ordered the K materials for my younger boy who doesn't seem to have a clue how to hold a pencil...unlike his 3 yo younger brother who is already beginning to write his name with help! ACK!!!
What other things should I be thinking of? I don't think he has visual problems. Should I try some fine motor work to help strengthen his grip? Stubby pencils? Help!
Valerie
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JuliaT
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| Posted: Oct 10 2006 at 9:15pm | IP Logged
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I only use a handwriting curriculum to help my children form the letters. Once they can do it, I ditch the book and use copywork for handwriting practise. I intend to do that for cursive as well. My dd turned 7 in the summer. I wasn't going to start her in cursive until she was in Gr. 3 because that was when I started but I think I will start her sometime this year.
As far as cursive goes, I want my children to learn cursive but that is just my personal preference. I don't know whether it is important to learn cursive, though.
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Becky Parker
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| Posted: Oct 11 2006 at 6:54am | IP Logged
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I do the same as Julia. Copywork from good books seems to be a much more interesting way to practice handwriting.
Valerie, I have the same problem with my ds's handwriting and he's 12. We used HWT last year and it did help. He will never have beautiful handwriting but it is at least legible now. However, at 10 it really wasn't. The HWT and just being patient on my part seemed to make some difference. One other thing that really made a difference was when he had to write a letter to his uncle who lives out of state. Wow, his handwriting was great on that! If you can give him an assignment every now and then that he knows others will see, that might help. My ds was quite proud of how neatly he had written and for him it was almost like an "Oh, I CAN do it!" thing.
Becky
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marihalojen
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| Posted: Oct 11 2006 at 9:32am | IP Logged
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vmalott wrote:
| This carelessness is carrying over into his math work, where he will miss a digit in his computations or something and winds up with the wrong answer. |
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Have you considered having him do his math work on graph paper? One number per square, everything lines up beautifully, especially helpful as long division gets longer!
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organiclilac
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| Posted: Oct 11 2006 at 10:32am | IP Logged
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I think I mentioned this on another thread... has anyone tried Callirobics? It is not letter practice, but just shapes and strokes, set to music, that is supposed to help improve handwriting. Ds is only 5, so I haven't tried it yet, but it looks like something that he would really enjoy (and for that matter, so would I!)
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teachingmom
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| Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 1:03am | IP Logged
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This is a timely topic. I found this article in the Washington Post today:
The Handwriting Is on the Wall: Researchers See a Downside as Keyboards Replace Pens in Schools
Actually it was in yesterday's Post. I am just up late with my night owl newborn. Do you think she picked up my late habits while in utero? 
We do about 10 minutes of handwriting each day through 6th grade. I guess I'm a believer in the value of it. I really think the coordination needed for good handwriting is good for the brain. And the article cites some other interesting facts based on research.
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Erin
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| Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 6:24am | IP Logged
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Jennifer,
I'm coming to your question as someone who has regrets and is now having to reverse bad habits. I would say that handwriting is definetly important having not stressed it enough and now having dc with dreadful handwriting. My biggest regret is not insisting that they start their letters in the correct place and form them correctly.
Now if your finding the Seton bk boring there are other ways of doing handwriting. My dc now have a book with 'lines' and they will copy out a poem or the Psalms or a Bible verse. This could take weeks to do. With my little ones I write the line out in their book and they copy it underneath.
In relation to cursive I start when they are interested. Samuel Blummenfield of Alpha Phonics recommended starting from the beginning at age six if memory serves me correct. Interestingly I have found dc with the printing problems have beautiful cursive as I have insisted upon it. By that stage I had realised my previous error. I am still endeavouring to correct the printing of the older dc. The younger dc whom I have been firmer with have far better writing. I find that it is important for me to stay with them when they write and correct errors immediately. Therefore I am remembering what Charlotte Mason said, I paraphrase: 'it is better to do less well than more sloppily.' With that in mind even ds11 will still often only do 1 to 2 sentences.
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Martha
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I do think it's important and from my hs-ing experience so far, I think the major obstacle is waiting too long to teach it.
As a result, I'm going to bite the bullet and buy Abeka's cursive materials for my 4 and 5 yr olds. They are the only ones still making this geared towards that age and they've been doing it for year. ('Back in the day' manuscript was only briefly covered, then it was straight to cursive.)
I agree that once they have the basic mastered, the book can be tossed and they can perfect the skill within their other assignments.
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JSchaaf
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| Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 9:27am | IP Logged
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Thanks for all the words of advice. I think I'm going to put away the Seton books for the 6 and 7 year old, and do daily copywork. They form their letters well, although my 7yo (a leftie) sometimes has trouble with reversing letters. If I see a certain letter that needs practice, I'll pull out the workbook.
For my 4 yo. who really wants to learn to write, I'm going to go back to A Reason For Handwriting. I like the way it presents the letters. For example, a,c, and o are first, because they all have that curve. Letters that have similar strokes are presented together. The Seton books start with A and go in order to Z.
Thanks again!
Jennifer
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ChristinaK
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| Posted: Oct 12 2006 at 11:33pm | IP Logged
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I think that working on handwriting in some form during the elementary grades is necessary. I love the idea of just using copywork but it wouldn't work for us because DS has some fine motor skills issues.
Valerie,
DS is in 3rd grade in PS (I'm a wannabe homeschooler). His teacher was concerned about his handwriting because it was not very legible except when he worked very slowly and it was taking him longer to do his work than the rest of the class. We saw a behavioral optometrist to rule out any vision problems. The optometrist's opinion was that DS had later developing motor skills and that he had developed an improper pencil grip and poor writing posture to compensate for being pushed by the school to write when he was not developmentally ready to do so. I ordered most of the HWOT printing materials and we started all the way back at the beginning. We are working with the PreK book right now to correct his pencil grip. We skip the stuff that is not directly handwriting related. I ordered the box of short pencils too. DS really likes them and they seem to be helping with his pencil grip. We've been working on this for several weeks now and I have seen a definite improvement in his grip and posture and in the neatness of his handwriting.
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vmalott
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| Posted: Oct 13 2006 at 8:48am | IP Logged
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Christina,
I was just discussing this with ds yesterday. He agrees that his handwriting is horrible. He said the main reason was that he wants to get it done quickly, and that it looks a little better when he takes more time. So, he realizes the problem. I'm thinking the short pencils may help him as well. I may also incorporate some Montessori-type work to help improve his fine motor skills. Maybe if I present to him and then have him help present to his younger brother, it won't seem too babyish to him.
I also discussed the graph paper to use for math problems. We had actually done this before, but at that time I was copying out the problems for him to complete...and, well, I admit I got tired of doing that really quick!  Anyway, when I discussed this with him yesterday, he looked at me as though I had four heads and said, "I don't know what you're talking about. We never did that!" So, I think we'll give it a go once again. I think if he has a box he has to squeeze his number into, he may be forced to take a little more time to write the answer carefully. At least, that is my hope.
Thanks for the input. I'm eagerly awaiting the arrival of our HWT materials.
Valerie
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Molly Smith
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| Posted: Oct 15 2006 at 12:16pm | IP Logged
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JSchaaf wrote:
| We are diligently trudging through Handwriting 2 by Seton. BORING! |
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I had to laugh at this because we are using Seton's Handwriting 1, 3 and 5 this year and the kiddos love it! Each child has really surprised me with their handwriting ability this year, too. My 10 yo daughter's cursive is starting to slant and is much narrower than last year, my 8 yo son's cursive is beautiful  (this is my tough kid to teach and, well, live with  and his cursive was a huge surprise), and my 6 yo son's manuscript is much neater.
We have to do handwriting books--my children's handwriting was not improving at all just using copywork and other written work. Every family is different, but this is what has been working for us.
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TracyQ
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| Posted: Oct 18 2006 at 8:25am | IP Logged
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We have done handwriting through grade 7 or 8 (depending). I think it's important that they learn to read and write in cursive, but by 9th grade, they develop their *own type of writing*, usually a mixture of cursive and printing. I know I did. I can write strictly in cursive, but usually use a mix, and don't write the way I was taught all of those years in school. I'm still glad that I do know.
We were having the discussion about how schools are not teaching handwriting anymore, and instead are teaching keyboarding instead. While keyboarding is also an important skill to learn these days, I don't think it should be taught in place of handwriting, but as well as it.
Thanks for this article! I'm going to send it to my homeschool support group.
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 homeschooling in 15th year in Buffalo, NY
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: Handwriting-Is it Necessry?
