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pumpkinmom
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I've been in deep thought about spelling in our house. Oldest ds is doing ok with Sequential Spelling (see this old post). He is still struggling when it comes time to writing. My youngest ds has finally hit a wall with spelling. It use to be so easy for him and we are getting into words that are hard and he isn't picking them up too fast. I have this sinking feeling with both of them. Are we on the right path? I'm I doing everything I can to improve their spelling? I just don't know.
I've reread Jen's wonderful blog post on language arts in her home. Is dictation the answer for us? I think yes and then I sit down to plan it and I don't get anywhere. I have lots of wonderful resources and I understand how to do it, but I'm still uncertain of this path.
I guess I just looking for a a little (or big) push to start dictation. Is it too much to continue with our current spelling programs and do dictation at the same time or should I just focus on dictation? I think I'm worried that dictation won't work and if we give up our current spelling program they will get further behind. Any thoughts?
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Cassie
Homeschooling my little patch of Ds-14 and Ds-10
Tending the Pumpkin Patch
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Mackfam
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pumpkinmom wrote:
| I guess I just looking for a a little (or big) push to start dictation. |
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I'll try to answer some of your questions, pumpkinmom, and I'd be happy to help you come up with a plan to get rolling if you'd like.
pumpkinmom wrote:
| Is it too much to continue with our current spelling programs and do dictation at the same time or should I just focus on dictation? |
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I think so. Both take time and energy from your children, and time and energy out of the day. Both have the same purpose - to work on spelling. But dictation goes further - it exposes children to living, worthy literary thoughts, it provides an opportunity for a brief grammar lesson, provides practice for penmanship, and has as its purpose to use the tool of visualization to work on 2 - 3 challenging spelling words at a time...rather than a whole list of words. In short, dictation is a richly packed exercise that won't take a lot of time out of your day, but is rigorous and complete. Combining it with another spelling program would be redundant and quite burdensome both for you and the children. You would likely feel very strapped for time in your days if you did this, and your children would not have time for free exploration, spending time out of doors, etc.
pumpkinmom wrote:
| I think I'm worried that dictation won't work and if we give up our current spelling program they will get further behind. Any thoughts? |
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Dictation is an excellent way to foster spelling. It moves slower than a traditional spelling program, but in my experience, its track record (used over CENTURIES!!) is proven. I have a child that had dyslexic tendencies and was totally overwhelmed with spelling programs. Dictation was simple, gentle and the words to work on came up within the context of a living thought. This child could work on learning 2 or so words at a time, rather than being overwhelmed with a whole list. The success of dictation for this child has been far beyond what I could have imagined. This child's spelling has improved dramatically. I didn't approach dictation differently or in any special way with this child than I did with my other children - the key to our success was consistently plugging along week after week...year after year. I haven't had any other kids with the same spelling difficulties, and dictation works for all of them.
I don't begin dictation lessons until 4th grade, so your 8yo would be close to starting...what grade is he in?
If I were starting to work on dictation with an 8 and 11yo I might start here:
** Give myself permission to try it exclusively for our entire next term.
** Gather dictation resources. I know you mentioned you have plenty of dictation resources, but I thought I'd mention a couple in case others are reading...* Bravewriter offers some good dictation resources as a part of their Arrow issues (and you can download a free one just to try)
* And for years I have used and enjoyed the Simply Charlotte Mason Spelling Wisdom series which has complete dictation selections in them. ** Take a look at our schedule, remove spelling program and keep it on the shelf for a bit. Add dictation time on 4 days of the week:DAY 1: One day to study a dictation selection (very important!!)
DAY 2: One day to write the dictation
DAY 3: New dictation selection - study
DAY 4: Write the new dictation selection
So in one week, you'd have two different dictation selections. ** Keep a file folder to contain both kids' dictation work (or use a dictation notebook). File their work each week, both practice work and their dictation work. After 6 and 12 weeks, take a peek in the file.Can I see progress in the length of the selections they're able to write?
Is their penmanship improving overall?
In looking at their papers, can I reflect on the work of the past weeks and notice that a habit of best effort (not perfect effort, but BEST effort) is being made?
Do I see improvement in their spelling abilities from study day to writing day?
In reflecting on the past weeks - have I been surprised at times when, during dictation study, a word that *I* would have thought would have been challenging to a child, is not? (The child does not identify that word as challenging in our study time and can spell it readily). Spelling improvement isn't quite as readily noticeable, and certainly isn't improved upon in a very short time when working with dictation, but improvements *can* be recognized. Do consider that a patience factor will have to come in when looking at dictation as an overall remedy for spelling.
Again, I have to emphasize that the key to our success in using dictation has been:** Short lessons that don't overwhelm
** Study days to really give focus on visualizing challenging words.
** Consistent dictation work - week after week and year after year. Is this sort of what you're looking for, Cassie? Can we help you focus in on any other challenges you might have with dictation and setting it up as a habit in your days? You may choose not to go with it and that's fine...but if you do choose to work with it, try to mentally walk yourself through a daily studied dictation and a daily written dictation - make notes of questions you might have and we can try to help you with them. Also, keep in mind to keep those first dictation selection short!!! Start small and build! And as with all good habits, give the habit of working on dictations time to develop. At first, it may seem a little awkward to you and the boys - look for ways to incorporate it into your schedule in intuitive a way as possible, and then stick with it for a time. It will need time to grow into a habit, and time to develop enough for you to see improvement and the rich fruits of it.
I sure do hope this is a help, Cassie!! Dictation is actually one of my favorite tools!!! It is so richly and efficiently packed into such a small package!
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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Betsy
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Cassi,
Jen's post is awesome and wise!
I wanted to add that my two oldest are not natural readers and are very poor at spelling. They come by it honestly!  However, consistent dictation has been a huge key for them becoming better. I have had to scale back an keep my eyes on my own work for this to be successful.  I have used both of the recourses that Jen recommended in Spelling Wisdom and Brave Writer. I LOVE the Brave Writer approach, but when my kids were really struggling Spelling Wisdom has worked better. (My oldest is transitioning into some of the Brave Writer work, but at a much lower lever than his grade would indicate).
With consistance and realistic goals dictation can work for kids where spelling doesn't come naturally. After two years I am finally seeing some really improvement and much less tears! 
I just wanted to add that for you or anyone that has struggled with spelling!
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Mackfam
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Oh, I'm so glad you posted that, Betsy...because my older two kids are also NOT natural spellers...AT ALL!!!! Merciful heavens! And it's a huge help to consider that dictation works well for any child, and is so malleable that it can be sized to fit while staying within the method. It's another of those wonderful CM methods that truly meets the child, rather than asking the child to meet the curriculum.
And I totally agree about Betsy's perspective on Spelling Wisdom being a better fit if a child is struggling...or even just for getting started with the habit and routine of dictation! It's an excellent point!
One of the things that I just LOVE-LOVE-LOVE about the Spelling Wisdom series is the index! If a child is struggling with the -tion suffix, I can look up words and find specific selections with that ending in it to help target that trouble spot. And, I really love the selections, and find them wonderful literary quality, quite thought provoking, and also very malleable!
If you have sons (and I see that you have two boys, Cassie), it is likely that you will need to shorten dictation selections. Boys' writing abilities lag a little behind girls, and this is easy to work with - just shorten the selection so they don't write quite so much in one sitting. If I shorten a selection that contains 2 long sentences for my son (and I do this all the time!!!) - I'd just spread that selection over the week, breaking it up into two different dictation exercises. The goal is not to overwhelm with writing, nor to provide an opportunity for the young writer to dissolve into tears - so do give yourself permission to be malleable in this area. Again - start short and build!
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
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pumpkinmom
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Thank you, Jen! I think this was the push that I needed. My 8 year old is third grade and he is a young third grader with a June birthday. Actually both my boys spell at about the same level.  My biggest concern with ds 8 is his handwriting since we are still struggling with that (I posted recently about that too).
I think picking dictation selection is what I struggle with the most. I do have Spelling Wisdom and will work from that resource.
I feel like the Little Engine that could at the moment. I think I can . . . I think I can . . . . I think I can! 
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Cassie
Homeschooling my little patch of Ds-14 and Ds-10
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Mackfam
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pumpkinmom wrote:
| I feel like the Little Engine that could at the moment. I think I can . . . I think I can . . . . I think I can! |
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Oh YOU CAN!!!! Be gentle on yourself as you ease into this! Give yourself permission for this to feel a little clumsy at first as you get rolling...and we will be here to cheer you on and brainstorm with you as you may meet challenges!!!
pumpkinmom wrote:
| My 8 year old is third grade and he is a young third grader with a June birthday. |
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Ok...so I would not worry at ALL about starting dictation with this fella right now! Work on copywork selections (I saw your other post and just haven't had time to get to it to respond yet...but I have a few ideas I'll share!). Let your goal with this little fella be nurturing a best effort with his copywork - short lessons :: best effort! But just so you know...what you're experiencing both with spelling and penmanship with your boys is TOTALLY normal!! Working with boys and fine motor skills just requires a little scaling back of expectations and I sometimes had to move a little slower than I did with my daughter (in terms of moving forward with penmanship and the length of her dictation exercises)...but the same methods work and they DO catch up! So be encouraged! The important thing is building a good habit of best effort and for boys, I cannot emphasize enough: SHORT LESSONS!!!!
pumpkinmom wrote:
| I think picking dictation selection is what I struggle with the most. I do have Spelling Wisdom and will work from that resource. |
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We can help with that if you'd like....just so that you can have your resources ready to roll when you start your schedule again.
Which Spelling Wisdom book do you have?
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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Betsy
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Mackfam wrote:
If you have sons (and I see that you have two boys, Cassie), it is likely that you will need to shorten dictation selections. Boys' writing abilities lag a little behind girls, and this is easy to work with - just shorten the selection so they don't write quite so much in one sitting. If I shorten a selection that contains 2 long sentences for my son (and I do this all the time!!!) - I'd just spread that selection over the week, breaking it up into two different dictation exercises. The goal is not to overwhelm with writing, nor to provide an opportunity for the young writer to dissolve into tears - so do give yourself permission to be malleable in this area. Again - start short and build! |
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Amen, Sister! Boys tend to resist dictation because of the writing! Keep is short and simple, but expect a good effort!
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pumpkinmom
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Oh, this is great information!
I just have the first book of Spelling Wisdom. I printed out various exercises between 4 & 20 to start out. I'm looking at them and I see between 1-3 words in each one that I *think* he will struggle with. I guess this will be a good place to start.
I'm ok with just doing copywork with ds8. Daily copywork will serve him better at this time. Plus he is always correcting his brother's spelling, so he is getting practice anyway. Older brother has come to accept this fact and isn't bothered by it anymore.
Thanks again!!
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Cassie
Homeschooling my little patch of Ds-14 and Ds-10
Tending the Pumpkin Patch
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pumpkinmom
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We are struggling with the dictation! The first week was a bust. Doing two seletion will not work. He has been studying, "The sleeping fox catches no poulty. Up! Up!" all week long. Yesterday I checked in with him and he orally spelled catches and poultry for me. Today he wrote it and missed both those words. Not just little errors, but completely wrong and not even close to correct. He started getting mad and raised his voice and almost started to cry when he got to the word catches. I was able to calm him, but this is the reason we have used almost ever spelling program out there. We can't go back to that! Any ideas?
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Cassie
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lapazfarm
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I have a struggling speller, and in our home we spread a single dictation passage out over the whole week. Here is how we do it:
Day 1: read the passage together, underlining any words that she may struggle with (in your example it would be "catches" and "poultry.") and pointing out punctuation, capitalization, etc. Copy the passage.
Day 2: read the passage. Copy difficult words three times each, then spell them to me orally.
Day 3: Write the passage by covering it up one word at a time, checking spelling for each word. (read first word, cover, write word, uncover and check. Read next word...) Any missed words are corrected, circled and then copied over again.
Day 4: Read passage, cover, and write the whole thing without looking. Check spelling when done,focusing especially on challenging words.
Day 5: dictation test day.
I have found this to be a very effective method that works for my struggling speller, who is also using Spelling Wisdom 1. It helps for her to know "how" to study the passage, with specific directions on what to do each day. In fact, I have printed these directions for her (in a simplified way) and put them in the front of her dictation notebook so she can look at them and be sure of what to do each day. So far, so good.
Hope that helps.
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Theresa
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Betsy
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DITTO what Theresa said!
Another thing that I haven't done, but is mentioned in Brave Writer is to study the passage, but make a fill in the blank type sheet so that they child only has to fill in the hard words.
i.e.
The sleeping fox __________ no ____________. Up! Up!
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Betsy
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On a side note how is your ds as a reader? I was/am a TERRIBLE speller. I am also not a good reader, at least I wan't growing up. I have no recollection of learning how to read, which is funny because I have so many recollection of my early childhood. It wan't until I researched reading before I started to teach my own children that I realized that most of what I had done to learn to read was memorize. I was very poor at sounding out words and very, very poor at spelling.
Anyway, I read the book Why Our Children Can't Read and What We Can Do About It and was very convinced by her findings. I taught my first child to read using Reading Reflex and then switched to ABeCeDarian. Both of these programs use the same research discover in Why Children Can't Read, but ABeCeDarian has laid out the research in a more usable form!
Now, I can't say that these programs produced wonderful ravenous readers! But, they are technically sound readers. And, although my first two dc have struggled with dictation in the beginning....they struggled with it the MOST when they were struggling with reading.
When my children are struggling with a word we use this approach to break it down to learn it. We begin by "taping and saying the sounds" , we discuss the sounds that can have different ways to be spelled like: ee, ea, e, etc and then I have them close their eyes and say each sound visualizing the letters with the sounds in their head.
If the ABeCeDaria approach appeals to you, you can get a short version of Level B. It won't take you very long to get though it, as your son already knows how to read, but it will help him look at the words in a different way and *maybe* help give you a better place to begin working on spelling with dictation.
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pumpkinmom
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He is actually a great reader (above level).
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Cassie
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Betsy
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pumpkinmom wrote:
| He is actually a great reader (above level). |
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Great, disregard my last post!
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pumpkinmom
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Betsy wrote:
On a side note how is your ds as a reader? I was/am a TERRIBLE speller. I am also not a good reader, at least I wan't growing up. I have no recollection of learning how to read, which is funny because I have so many recollection of my early childhood. It wan't until I researched reading before I started to teach my own children that I realized that most of what I had done to learn to read was memorize. I was very poor at sounding out words and very, very poor at spelling.
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Just a side note, that I was taught to read with memorizing too. No phonics! I can't sound out any words I have never seen before. After teaching my boys phonics I have improved. My spelling has improved too.
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Cassie
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AmandaV
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Mackfam wrote:
pumpkinmom wrote:
| My 8 year old is third grade and he is a young third grader with a June birthday. |
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Ok...so I would not worry at ALL about starting dictation with this fella right now! Work on copywork selections (I saw your other post and just haven't had time to get to it to respond yet...but I have a few ideas I'll share!). Let your goal with this little fella be nurturing a best effort with his copywork - short lessons :: best effort! But just so you know...what you're experiencing both with spelling and penmanship with your boys is TOTALLY normal!! Working with boys and fine motor skills just requires a little scaling back of expectations and I sometimes had to move a little slower than I did with my daughter (in terms of moving forward with penmanship and the length of her dictation exercises)...but the same methods work and they DO catch up! So be encouraged! The important thing is building a good habit of best effort and for boys, I cannot emphasize enough: SHORT LESSONS!!!!
pumpkinmom wrote:
| I think picking dictation selection is what I struggle with the most. I do have Spelling Wisdom and will work from that resource. |
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We can help with that if you'd like....just so that you can have your resources ready to roll when you start your schedule again.
Which Spelling Wisdom book do you have?
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I just wanted to bump this excellent post since we are talking about 3rd grade LA above.
To agree with what Jen said, Sonia of SCM suggested that I use book 1 of Spelling Wisdom with my young third grader as copy work rather than dictation, so that's what we've done about once a week this year. Now that he is close to 9, I am using some of them as studied dictation, but only at his comfort level, and then we'll use continue the book in 4th grade (young age 9) as studied dictation twice per week. My son seems to be a good speller so far, but I don't like spelling workbooks and wanted to make sure we were doing something specifically spelling focused so I purchased SW.
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Amanda
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: Need some help with dictation-UPDATE
