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Angel
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I have been thinking quite a bit about narration lately. For years, what we have done as a family would probably be called "informal" narration: I asked the kids questions about what we read, including, "Can you tell me what happened yesterday?", and I often suggested drawing as a means of narration, I listened to spontaneous narrations, but I did not call any of it "narration".
Now I am trying to do narration more formally. I read a short story or fable to my 7 year old and say something like, "Now can you tell it back to me?" and he rolls his eyes and hides under the table. Yet if I say, "what do you remember from the story we read yesterday?" he will gladly tell me. And of course I am treated to many, many unasked for treatises on Redwall. 
My 14 yo is like this, too, although he has passed the stage of hiding under the table.
So my question is: what are the benefits of formal narration? Am I doing it wrong? Why don't my kids love it like so many people say they should? The reason I stopped doing formal narrations in the past is because I was afraid that forcing the issue would diminish the enjoyment of the books.
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Erin
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Angela
I've been considering narration alot lately, much is thanks to your questions  Therefore you have inspired me to make more of a concerted effort in our home to ask at least a few children to narrate, putting more energy at this stage into oral, I'll worry about written later.
Like yourself my oldest ds hated narration, which inevitably led me to 'giving up' on the whole. He still hates it and grunts and speaks in monosyllables. However some of my other dc are okay with it and some love it, never stop talking. I'm concluding it is just the child, so looks like your ds' 14 and 7 could just well be on the same page with this.
I'm insisting on my ds 15 giving me a couple of narrations a week now, orally. I'm not going to stress too much about written at this stage, one obstacle at a time. Do I regret resting the issue with him between 8 and 15? Not really, it is a skill he needs and I think we can 'get it together' in the next couple of years. Relationship was more important with him at the time.
Perhaps just asking for one a week? Then again if ds7 can tell it all to you the next day I consider that a narration, he has taken the information, processed and can articulate.
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Angel
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I guess I'm trying to separate what's different about formal narrating. I'm still trying to get my whole head around how this process of calling something "narration" is different than anything we've been doing for years.
Is it the performance aspect? I can see that calling for a formal narration is like a performance. Making presentations would improve communication skills. Also, if you formally say, "Try to use complete sentences," you are orally working on skills needed for writing.
But say I don't want to make this a power struggle, so I say, "Why don't you build me this story with Legos?" (which would certainly go over better with my 7 yo!) He'll probably explain to me a bit about the story when he shows me his Legos, but will it be working on the *same* skills that a formal, traditional narration would? If I go back to my former "sneaky" way of asking for information, is that really promoting the same skills?
Because if it does, then I can cut one power struggle out of my day, you know?
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Angel wrote:
| I guess I'm trying to separate what's different about formal narrating. |
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I wasn't sure where to start, so I'll just start here. Narration is simply telling back what you've read or heard. Period. What you're calling "formal" and "informal" narrations both count in my book as long as the child communicates what he's just read. Charlotte Mason herself says:
CM, Vol 6, p. 182 wrote:
| -they are able to 'tell' each work they have read not only with accuracy but with spirit and originality. |
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Spirit and originality. The child acts upon the passage he's heard read or read himself with his own imagination.
Angel wrote:
| Is it the performance aspect? |
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My children don't usually "perform" when they narrate, or at least not what I consider performing. Our oral narrations are in the style of a conversation - a conversation in which they communicate to me with their words, and I communicate my interest in what they have to tell me with my body language and attention. At the end of the narration I may ask a couple of questions to clarify something, and that's it. My children are naturally quite dramatic, but most of our narrations tend to be more intimate than a performance if that makes any sense. I'm engaged. I communicate my interest, and they are eager to tell me what they know. Now, I don't mean to diminish narration as a performance because this style may work very well in other families!!! In our family, narrations are more intimate and seem more of a conversation than anything else.
CM does mention "perform" in the context of a narration:
(Bold emphasis mine, italic emphasis is CM)
CM, Vol 6, p. 99 wrote:
| Children do the work for themselves. They must read the given pages and tell what they have read, they must perform, that is, what we may call the act of knowing. |
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So a child performs the act of knowing. How that performance looks may vary - lego demonstration, conversation style, booklet of scenes drawn by the child, etc.!!!!
Angela wrote:
| Making presentations would improve communication skills. Also, if you formally say, "Try to use complete sentences," you are orally working on skills needed for writing. |
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This is true. I think any narration builds communication skills and lays the foundation for organizing thoughts in the mind which is the beginning and foundation of composition/writing as I know you know. As the child tells back, he is organizing, pruning, expressing, constantly thinking and acting on the material read. There is such great value in this. If I'm going to point out something that needs improvement in a child's narration, I focus on one thing at a time..."Remember today as you tell me what you've read to try to catch yourself saying, 'so, anyway' and not include it when you narrate. It will feel awkward at first and that's ok. It's become a habit in your speech so it will take a little time to make not saying it a habit. Let's spend the week working on this."
Angel wrote:
| But say I don't want to make this a power struggle, so I say, "Why don't you build me this story with Legos?" (which would certainly go over better with my 7 yo!) He'll probably explain to me a bit about the story when he shows me his Legos, but will it be working on the *same* skills that a formal, traditional narration would? |
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I don't see anything wrong with this. Charlotte Mason refers to narration over 50 times in volume 6 alone, and if you read through those citations you will find that CM recognizes and places great value on the individuality and originality a child inserts in their narration.
CM, Vol 6, p. 260 wrote:
| ...they will tell you the whole thing with little touches of individual personality in the narrative. |
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CM, Vol 6, p. 261 wrote:
| ...telling again, sounds very simple but it is really a magical creative process by means of which the narrator sees what he has conceived. |
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Perhaps this is just a question of learning to ask for a narration in a way that is inviting and non-threatening - that is individual for your home and your family style? And less about formal vs. informal styles? A narration is a narration to me. I suppose each family/mom/teacher has a different way of asking for narrations. In our home my children thrive on knowing I'm engaged and riveted, so I ask for narrations by saying something like, >> eye contact and body language indicate I'm totally attentive and eager to hear from the child << "So...yesterday Jeffrey stowed away on the Turkish ship...what happened today??? This gets my child rolling instantly!! It's a tiny review indicating I remember where we are in the book, and that I'm eager to know what happens next. It's what works for us. This is just an idea, but I'm wondering if you spend some time working on the invitation to narrate, one which seems natural in your family with your boys would help you here?? Just saying, "please tell me everything you read today," seems to be a big downer for them.  So much so that they hide under tables! What style of communication works best for your fellas??
Don't know if anything here was a help for you, Angela.
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lapazfarm
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What she said. 
The only thing I want to add is that (ideally) the child should know he could be asked to narrate at any time. This is what cultivates the habit of attention (to the material) and the habit of "reading to know."
For example: How many times have we ourselves read a paragraph from a book and then realized halfway down the page that we remember nothing of what we just read? Happens to me quite often. If it is just casual reading (a magazine article, etc) we might be tempted to just skip it and keep moving on. But we are more likely to go back and read that paragraph again, before continuing on with the rest of the article, if we know we must *use* the information later. It is this knowledge that cultivates the habit of attention and reading to know. I am not sure if informal or spontaneous narrations will have this same benefit.
I think this is more important for non-fiction than for fiction. Fiction tends to naturally lend itself to memory because of the narrative. Non-fiction rarely has a clear narrative, so we have to work a bit harder to maintain attention and ability to recall.
One hidden benefit I have noticed lately with ds(15) is that since he knows he is going to have to remember and narrate his readings, he is actually paying attention to the underlying structure of what he is reading as an aid to his memory. He is (in his mind) pulling out the author's outline, and using it as a scaffolding for his re-telling. I think this will have tremendous value in his writing! I honestly do not think this would have happened had I not been asking for formal narrations.
Just some thoughts.
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Mackfam
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lapazfarm wrote:
| The only thing I want to add is that (ideally) the child should know he could be asked to narrate at any time. This is what cultivates the habit of attention (to the material) and the habit of "reading to know." |
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This is a good point! The purpose of narration isn't so much the output, or how the actual narration looks or sounds, but the internal action of attentiveness - the attention required to be able to offer a narration. As Theresa says, as long as they know and understand that they may be asked to narrate anything and everything they've read, a child must act internally as they read; they are attentive. If a child conveys to you his internal attentiveness using lego figures and a 3D model of a volcano - GREAT!
Also, I knew I had seen this somewhere and I wanted to come back and add it to this thread. From Ambleside Online - Narration:
Quote:
Charlotte used both sketching and skits in her schools. I remember reading about sketching a scene from the reading in one of CM's books (can't recall the volume offhand). Charlotte does explain that many of the same processes so important in the oral narration occur in choosing which scene to sketch ( it is important to let the child do the choosing for this reason) and in determinating how best to illustrate that scene. Furthermore, when my children sketch a narration, they still have to tell me something about it--or at the very least write down a caption of their choice. So yes, many of these activities use the same capacities and give similar training, much the same way two different exercises might help strengthen the same area of the body, but in different ways.
I have a copy somewhere of the actual school schedules for one of CM's schools, and one of the scheduled activities for the older students is to sketch a scene each week from the reading of that child's choice.
I first read about skits being used as narrations in Charlotte's schools in an article from one of the old parent's reviews. The teacher writing the article explained that she'd tell the class that the next day one student would get to put on a short skit of that day's reading in a particular subject. They all needed to think about how they would do the skit, as she might call on any of them. That night they would all go home and plan. The next day she would call on one child and let him direct the others in acting out his idea of the skit. Not only did they all have to think through the reading, considering events and their sequence, and give thought to how best to portray them--but they also would often discuss the reading all the way home as they debated how one scene might better have been staged.=)
As homeschoolers, we may not get this aspect of the skit plan--but doing a skit was an acceptable form of narration in Charlotte's schools.
Staging the reading with blocks is simply using some props to aid in narration- it distracts a reluctant narrater from his fears or frustrations and he ends up narrating more fluidly. When he has done this a few times you can surprise him by telling him he's been narrating all along.
I hope we do all understand that these are supplements to narrations as we generally understand them--a retelling after a single reading--not complete replacements. Oral narrations should continue through all of the school years, even on into high school. But other methods may help to prime the pump of a reluctant narrator or vary the day of a homeschooled student. Not all of Charlotte's students narrated after reading, but every reading was narrated. We can't narrate from every reading unless our homeschooled student does all the narrating. Varying the style is a way of avoiding tediousness.
So while these alternate forms of narration are not to completely replace oral narrations, they are very compatible with Charlotte's principles, often actually used by her.
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Angela
There as so many ways to narrate, I've gathered some links here and searching through the archives I found 49 ways to narrate.
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Angel
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Hmmm. I think I'm having trouble articulating this to myself, which is probably the first thing.
What I mean is, if it's a conversation, my kids are ok. But they don't practice oral skills that will translate into writing skills. As I understand it, this is a big part of why children are asked to narrate in the first place -- as a way of learning to write without the obvious teaching of composition, writing curricula, etc. (I mean, I understand that narration is also supposed to cultivate the habit of attention, the ability to retain and synthesize information instead of just memorizing and parroting it back, too, but composition seems -- to me -- to also be emphasized.)
So, anyway ( !)... if a child is supposed to know that he might be required to narrate anything at all, then he must know -- have been told -- what narration *is*. Maybe the word "narrate" has even been used. And -- I think what I'm trying to get at -- is that, as I understand it, when you use the word "narrate", you are asking for something more formal than just sitting down and talking about the book. Isn't this true?
(I have a feeling I'm being very dense here, which I'm sure is either baffling or frustrating... or both . I'm just trying to clarify, in my own mind, what narrating IS and what it ISN'T, because I know that it must have some sort of parameters or it wouldn't really have any meaning at all. So I need to establish these boundaries in my own mind in order to decide what parameters to set for my kids, if that makes any sense.)
For the record, I've only been asking my 7 yo to narrate from Aesop's Fables, and the climbing under the table episode came from a short story in True Stories for First Communicants (which would have been hard to do in Lego, I think!) I tell him at the beginning, "Ok, after I read this story, I'm going to ask you to tell me the story in your own words. All right?" Then I read, close the book, he rolls his eyes and looks bored. Or -- climbs under the table. I'm not asking for more than 1 narration -- short, formal narration -- from him a day. We talk about the other things I read to him (and btw, he is not reading on his own at all so it's all read aloud), but in a more natural manner. And I do say, before I start reading in a chapter book, "Do you remember what happened last time?" -- but I think he understands this as a legitimate review to situate us back into the book.
I was rereading Karen Andreola's book tonight (Charlotte Mason Companion), especially the chapters on narration, and found that she treated narration very formally. She sometimes gave her children lists of words from the reading before reading it (as she said Charlotte Mason did as well), and her children knew they would be asked to narrate afterwards -- to tell what they had heard back, not in the form of a conversation (as we often do, which is something like what I meant by "informal" narration), but in formal *narrative* form. She includes a section about one of her children who "balked" at narration (her son, of course) and says that she insisted on narration. In other words, the formal narration was non-negotiable. It wasn't a performance, per se, but it was *like* a performance because it wasn't a back-and-forth discussion about a story or about a book... does that make sense? And if you look at the samples of example narrations you will find here and there, they are all definitely in narrative form.
So what I am trying to decide is, are there enough benefits from formally identifying the practice to the child as "narration" and bringing it out of the realm of normal, every day, relaxed conversation into true narrative to make it (as Karen Andreola did) non-negotiable? So that's why I asked about the differences.
Probably I should have just kept thinking with my fingers, though. That's the problem with being a writer; your brain doesn't engage until your fingers start moving...  What I actually should have titled this question was, "What is narration?" And I realize that questioning narration like this on a Charlotte Mason board may get a few tomatoes thrown at me ... but I hope everyone who reads this will realize that in the thinking through of it, I am actually trying to determine for myself what is most valuable in it, so I don't feel so wishy-washy when my extremely talkative kid crawls under the table and refuses to say anything.
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lapazfarm
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I think I understand what you are asking, and I do think there are enough benefits to a formal narration to insist upon them.
My ds does not care for formal narrations either. He would much rather just talk about what he has read. And that is what we do most of the time. But I do ask for at least one formal narration per day and have seen so much improvement in these few weeks.
In fact, just today he said "Mom. I really don't care for narrations." I asked him why and he said they were "hard." But when I asked him he did admit they were getting easier as he does more of them. I also explained (in a nice way) that they were a non-negotiable. Luckily I have a kid who is pretty easy-going, so he accepts that without a problem.
JBug is 9 and she LOVES to narrate! For her, a "formal" narration is a pretty casual thing. At her age I have very few expectations of her narrations and I am pleased with a simple retelling of the story, however she wants to do it. I figure I have a lot of years to hone her skills so I am not pushing it with her. I want it to remain an enjoyable experience for her.
I guess what I am saying is that the degree of "formality" increases with age and experience around here.
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lapazfarm wrote:
| At her age I have very few expectations of her narrations and I am pleased with a simple retelling of the story, however she wants to do it. I figure I have a lot of years to hone her skills so I am not pushing it with her. |
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Okay, I can see I have a lot of learning still to do in this area. How does a narration look different between your 15yr old and your 9 yr old?
I'm wondering and I could be totally incorrect, with your 9 yr old you are happy with a 'retelling,' for your 15yr old would it be more of a 'summation' picking the key points, rather than just nearly giving a word for word re-hash (which is what my 11yr old does)?
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lapazfarm
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Erin wrote:
I'm wondering and I could be totally incorrect, with your 9 yr old you are happy with a 'retelling,' for your 15yr old would it be more of a 'summation' picking the key points, rather than just nearly giving a word for word re-hash (which is what my 11yr old does)? |
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Right. Well, since ds reads a LOT more information in a sitting, by necessity he has to summarize. I don't need or want to hear every detail of his chapter on the Peloponnesean wars, (nor could he remember them all) because that would take an hour or more! But I need to hear about the main people and events in a logical order, with details of anything particularly interesting, summed up in a few minutes.
So, sure, there is a good amount of sifting of information that goes on at his age.
Now for dd, her readings are short, and she can practically repeat them verbatim. As she gets older, her selections get longer, and she will gradually learn to give me just the most important parts. I can already see this happening as we have progressed this year from simple Aesop's fables to slightly longer Just So stories. She is naturally summarizing a bit to get to the point of the story. I still want detail from her, just not every single little detail, you know?
Does that help at all?
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Helps immensely
This is what I just naturally started asking my children for, ds11 from a young age could repeat a very long story verbatim, a huge job to type his narrations.
Good to know I was on the right track.
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Angel wrote:
| So what I am trying to decide is, are there enough benefits from formally identifying the practice to the child as "narration" and bringing it out of the realm of normal, every day, relaxed conversation into true narrative to make it (as Karen Andreola did) non-negotiable? So that's why I asked about the differences. |
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Yes. I think Theresa summed up the reasons very well and how this looks!
I've seen my children's vocabulary, manner of expression, use of beautiful language increase in leaps and bounds because of the literature they are narrating. In addition, in my older student I see a grasp of concepts which are more abstract beginning to surface in her thoughts, vocabulary, and writing. I can see their roots in the literature she's reading, and since narration is what makes those words, thoughts, and ideas her own - I find its benefits immense.
My son didn't like narrations initially, they didn't seem natural to him even though his older sister was already narrating (and that did help him eventually, btw...having another sibling narrating, seeing her model a narration). It became a matter of discipline - I believe in their value (and by this time I had the benefit of seeing their value from my older child's narration) and therefore narrations are not optional. That doesn't mean that I didn't brainstorm some tools to help him transition into narrating, but it wasn't something I was going to give up. He offers narrations readily now and is just about to transition into written narrations.
My daughter is different, she relished narrations - RELISHED THEM...until a couple of years ago at which point they became more challenging for many of the same reasons Theresa defined. She had been narrating for almost 6 years and narrating well, but it became important that narrations begin to summarize rather than detail and it wasn't a skill I modeled or taught early enough for her. It was extremely challenging for her to think through a reading to offer a well thought out summary narration of it. It's beginning to "click" with her, but with a near photographic memory, it's against the grain NOT to offer every detail you've pictured. Still, I can see the improvement in her writing!! Orally summarizing is still challenging for her. She says it really stretches her brain to read, and while reading, to consider points in an outline form so that she can summarize what she just read. I'm empathetic, it IS difficult, but internally I'm jumping up and down because that's exactly the kind of internal brain stretching I'm happy to hear of!!!! She's building writing skills!! And as she does this, I can see her hanging facts and connections off of these points in other narrations. They are reference points for her, and as her breadth of knowledge increases, those reference points' value increases exponentially.
SO....YES - I'd sit down and talk with my children about narration and why I feel it's important: (Edited to say...This is what I'd do if I were starting to move toward formal narrations in the middle of the game...I'm not implying that this is what anyone should or must do...just how I would approach it :)
** what we won't be doing in lieu of narration (reading comp, Q & A, analysis)
** I'd probably acknowledge (if needed) that narrations may feel strange, un-natural, or not come easy...and that's ok!
** I'd let them know that I will help them by giving them any tools I can to help them offer narrations (modeling narrations comes to mind).
** I'd let the narrations meet us right where we are - in other words, if a son wants to use legos as part of his narrations for a while - fine! If narrations need to be more natural, more conversational for a bit - OK.
** I'd gently and consistently move us toward more formal narrations.
...because of the great value and the many layers of stretching and building that go on cognitively with both writing and reasoning that are a direct result of the simply and consistently applied skill and discipline of narration.
My 2 cents.
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Angel wrote:
| I'm just trying to clarify, in my own mind, what narrating IS and what it ISN'T, because I know that it must have some sort of parameters or it wouldn't really have any meaning at all. So I need to establish these boundaries in my own mind in order to decide what parameters to set for my kids, if that makes any sense. |
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I re-read your post and this jumped out at me. I thought I'd take a shot at providing some parameters for narration, though I'd caution not to make it more than it is. It really is quite simple and straightforward. Though there HAVE BEEN times I've had to assist/brainstorm in the application of it, the greater challenge has been having faith that it is enough - that it IS effective, worthwhile, and valuable. My perspective and experience finally affords me a position to say that it is.
Parameters for narration:
** Narrations are a foundational part of the Charlotte Mason method of learning with and through living books, therefore narrations are a discipline - non-negotiable.
** Begins with a living book
** Telling back after one reading
** The child's mind goes over a reading in their own mind; they self-question as they narrate - "What happened next?"
** Not interrupted by questions or corrections or explanations
** There may be a few questions for clarification or to emphasize certain points after the narration.
** The child should expect to narrate after every reading - parent/teacher to choose which reading selections are narrated.
** Narrations are original - this is not parroting or memory work
** There is no specified length a narration should be, though high schoolers should begin to summarize more in their narrations. Some children are very succinct, others highly detailed. The point is that the child acts on the information read and offers back.
** Written narrations begin around age 10 and may take some time to transition into - perhaps a year or more.
** Formal composition instruction does not begin until high school - narration lays the groundwork in earlier years.
The above is my summary, but I reviewed Penny Gardner's, A Charlotte Mason Study Guide which has a compilation chapter on Narration.
As I re-read CM with older children and having lived CM methods to varying degrees over the years I find more and more that I missed the first times I read her volumes. And I find some things that resonate more with older children as well as with our experiences over the years. As it applies to the value of narration, this little quote which I found unimportant and somewhat redundant at first, jumped out at me; I'm seeing it unfold:
CM, Vol 6, p 16 wrote:
| He will...find that in the act of narrating every power of his mind comes into play, that points and bearings which he had not observed are brought out; that the whole is visualized and brought into relief in an extraordinary way; in fact, that scene or argument has become a part of his personal experience; he knows, he has assimilated what he has read. |
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That sounds great when you read the words. I read it at first and thought, "Ok. Sounds wonderful. We'll see." As I'm living it those words seem richer to me. In a sense I can validate them because I'm seeing the expression of it lived out with my children. These ideas, articulated by this British educator so many years ago, some so simple they hardly seem effective, yield the beauty she speaks of. What did I do? Not much - I provide the literature, the empathy CM speaks of (I'm an engaged listener), and the consistent day-to-day application over the years.
And lastly, I'll throw out this little practical thing...because I really appreciate when I have a practical idea to USE!!! I've really enjoyed using a narration cube (hat tip: Penny Gardner's site). This has been a big help in learning common literary terms.
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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Angel
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Thanks, Theresa and Jen! I'm feeling better about it all today... I needed to hash out the WHY's for myself, and it was helpful to hear how narration has changed for your older kids. My oldest also has a near photographic memory... which is why, I think, it annoys him to some extent to be asked about what he's just read. But we really need to work on writing non-fiction, and I do think that in hearing him talk about what he's reading, I can pinpoint some of the same problems he has when writing, most of it to do with sequencing. I do wonder if narration is harder for non-sequential people.
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Angela
Mom to 9, 7 boys and 2 girls
Three Plus Two
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: formal and informal narration
