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amyable
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| Posted: Oct 07 2008 at 7:56am | IP Logged
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Ladies, convince me I don't need to replace our language arts program. I bought Sonlight's Core 4 LA, and we have struggled through a few week of it. It's just too "all over the place" for us, and also too difficult for my (advanced) 3rd grader. (I'm selling it now if you are interested, LOL!)
I keep thinking I *must* replace it with something I can hold in my hand, something structured, like the Language of God series. I know many of you use this. I did too a few years ago. May I ask why *you* use it? Do you do all of it or just use it for some back up? Can anyone tell me if it is as "gentle" in the 3-5th grades as it is in the earlier grades? I'm afraid without something structured and in my hand (i.e. a workbook) I won't DO enough...I'll just let it slide.
I think I'm not sure what my goals should be at these ages. What do you use to tell you what needs to be learned around a certain age or ability level in the language arts?
I don't know why I feel so lost about LA all of a sudden.
I think I need a new discussion on the benefits and shortfalls of Charlotte Mason language arts...  .
For those of you that have gone Waldorfy  what does LA look like in 3rd-5th grade?
Thanks for any thoughts you have on any of this.
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KC in TX
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| Posted: Oct 07 2008 at 8:01am | IP Logged
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Have you had a chance to look at the language arts stuff at Serendipity?
We don't do formal language arts. My hope is that they'll learn correct grammar, etc from good books, copywork, and doing dictation.
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amyable
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| Posted: Oct 07 2008 at 8:16am | IP Logged
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Thanks KC - I think the Serendipity *idea* is great, although my fear is talking - I wonder if it's enough. At least for my 5th grader...I worry as they get older that I'm not going to do enough to get them where they need to be to function at the high school level.  Guess I'm jumping the gun a little as usual.
You say you *hope* they'll learn it all from good books, copywork, dictation -- I guess I just want proof! 
My hope with something like LOG is that I can just hand it to them when life is getting the better of me/us, instead of having to "create" some dictation, narration ideas, etc from my own little brain. 
But seeing as we are still going to use Sonlight's read alouds, history, and readers for Core 4, narration/copywork/dictation would really flow well into that...
...still pondering...
Thanks again for your thoughts, KC!
ETA: after re-looking through the Serendipity pictures/LA ideas, I'm realizing I *really* need some set of goals to work towards. Like I never would have thought to highlight nouns in a page of writing or illustrate changing y to i before adding -es... I want to do those things - I think I *can* create those things, if I just knew "at about 8yo a child should be: punctuating correctly, knowing what a noun is, and learning to add "es" to pluralize..." YKWIM??
But my head is mush, and I am lost.
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mom2mpr
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| Posted: Oct 07 2008 at 8:49am | IP Logged
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LA is my son's strong point. But, I want to make sure all my bases are covered-he understands grammar, spelling, comprehension stuff, etc. So, I use Learning Language Arts Through Literature as my "helper." We don't do everything in the book. I find it light on literature. I use it for ideas, and projects and making sure he will be OK.
Find something you like and use it as your reference and then do lot's of cool stuff for fun--reading, games, etc.
Hope that helps.
Anne
PS-SL LA didn't work for us either. This is close to it but cheap and easy to work with.
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ALmom
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| Posted: Oct 07 2008 at 9:21am | IP Logged
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I cannot say about whether or not you need something else. What I can tell you is that, yes, LOG is still gentle in the 3rd grade - but there aren't a lot of the exercises that really make it stick - like taking time to create your own sentences or such. It is a little easy to just rotely fill in the pages without engaging the mind much. If you sort of ignore deadlines and stuff and do a little in between other stuff and then apply that to the other stuff you are doing, it works well. It just means you still have to be on the top of things to create the assignments to engage the child so it depends on how much help here you want or whether you just want something to do a bit of review when days are hectic.
I will tell you that I was extremely impressed with Kolbe's Ignatius Speaks and Writes. We used 1st grade and then went to 2nd but the print size was too difficult for us, so we put it aside. I'm pulling it out again soon to see if now it is easier for the eyes.
This workbook actually has sections that ask you to create what has just been taught - but in very gentle steps. It does a much better job of teaching in a connected way. I know they were working on 3rd grade, but don't think they have it ready yet. I will say their 2nd grade book would be more than adequate for 3rd. I'm not all that attentive to the grade level posted on the book so I have no problem using this supposedly 2nd grade workbook over 3rd grade or even using it for a few years. I would intersperse it with other stuff I was doing, so we might work on it 2 - 3 days per week and then do other things with our reading on other days. I did not have to come up with writing assignments here as it actually very gently developed some of this in the context of grammar. This sounds more like what you are looking for.
Janet
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LLMom
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| Posted: Oct 07 2008 at 9:51am | IP Logged
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Have you thought of using the Arrow from Bravewriter? She provides copywork/dictation (4 per month). It also includes the reasons for the grammar/punctuation and there is a writing activity for each month based on a literary element. There is a free sample on the site so you can try it out first. I personally believe writing is a very gradual process that takes years to master.
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vmalott
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amyable wrote:
| I think I *can* create those things, if I just knew "at about 8yo a child should be: punctuating correctly, knowing what a noun is, and learning to add "es" to pluralize..." YKWIM?? |
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Perhaps you could look at the LA scope for the particular grades you're concerned about in those books What Your Nth Grader Needs to Know from the Core Knowledge Foundation. Just a thought...
Valerie
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amyable
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| Posted: Oct 09 2008 at 7:34am | IP Logged
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vmalott wrote:
Perhaps you could look at the LA scope for the particular grades you're concerned about in those books What Your Nth Grader Needs to Know from the Core Knowledge Foundation. Just a thought...
Valerie |
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Thanks Valerie, and everyone! I think this is what I have decided to do. SL LA is dropped - and I'm going to work on adding better copywork, narration, and dictation. Then once I can "get thee to a library" I'll go check out where the girls should be around this age, and make sure they know those things. 
I think I was wanting LOG because I wanted something to "show" that other people would understand when it came time for my homeschool review. Silly, because I *know* LOG doesn't really stick with my kids, we've used it! I've got to stop catering to the "fear of the review" 
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BlessedMommy
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| Posted: Oct 09 2008 at 11:58am | IP Logged
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I HATE teaching LA! There is no possible way I can teach it 5 day a week, I love math (and my DC pick it up pretty quick) but only do it 4 days a week so no burnout, YKWIM. I can say LA is NOT my forte! But Primary Language Lessons and Intermediate LL worked very good for us, a relaxed, but structural approach...if that makes sense. I'm also weaving in Grammer Ace (which I got from Sonlight) and Stories with a View for my 4th graders. Not sure if you school anyone in 6th or 7th grade, but just so you know we are using Lingua Mater. Again relaxed, but structured, that's the best way for me to describe it. These can be found at Hillside Education or Amazon
Although Hillside's is a bit more expensive MY DC enjoyed the updated and colored vesion more (I have both.)
You'll know in your heart what is right, Our Father always guides us in the right direction....it just takes time and sometimes a little help from friends and family.  HTH!
~God Bless
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sarahb
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| Posted: Oct 10 2008 at 8:35am | IP Logged
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When I faced this issue I decided to buy easygrammar and call it a day. I was tired of feeling like LA was all over the place. I enjoyed Winterproimise's LA very much but was sick of using a different work book or work sheet every day. My 3rd grader and 5th grader are doing All About Spelling and Easygrammar and that is that.
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mary
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| Posted: Oct 11 2008 at 6:36am | IP Logged
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amy, i ditched sl's la a long time ago. i could never get it to work for me. one year i did chc's la/spelling and it was alright. last year i did winter's promise la and about killed my then 4th grader's love for writing - the grammar workbooks were way too much. this year we are doing bravewriter - i am using a different arrow book for each month. he absolutely loves it. i am also reading the writer's jungle and it really is teaching me how to teach language arts. my kids are doing all about spelling and they are learning spelling rules - finally!
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ahappyheart
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I have not used a grammar program with my children, ds11, dd10 and dd8. I have done skills with them on and off when we focused on skills either as a unit or when doing dictation where they identified nouns, or verbs or predicates and subjects and wrote interrogative and imperative and exclamatory and declarative sentences. . . .
This year I purchased a unit study that didn't work out for us, that included all the grammar I was going to teach this year, and this summer we tried a workbook that was not fun and dropped it.
Anyway, I wanted to teach them all the parts of speech and have them identify the parts of speech in their own writing.
I found a book called Mary's Grammar, which is a living story about the parts of speech. A mom teaches her daughter through stories all about the parts of speech. http://books.google.com/books?id=HJhfNYi3iDQC&printsec=front cover&dq=grammar+story+for+children&lr=#PPA1,M1
There is another version of the book that has a boy as the main character called Willy's Grammar, here,
http://books.google.com/books?id=7_YDAAAAQAAJ&printsec=front cover&dq=Willy%27s+Grammar&lr=&client=firefox-a
I have been reading them the stories and then in their writing during the week I have them underline the part of speech talked about in the story. It's going well.
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amyable
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| Posted: Oct 15 2008 at 2:20pm | IP Logged
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Thanks again everyone!
Susan Marie, that "Mary's Story" is cute! I think my girls will love it. I'm going to read it to them whether or not we pick up other more formal LA lessons.
I love the *idea* of the Arrow. I'm at the price and really wishing that the same thing existed for the books we are already using (Sonlight's Core 4). I hate to add another, unrealated, book to what we are already doing, because my whole goal was to try to integrate everything (just my personal preference for my kids at this time). But the idea of it is wonderful!
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LisaD
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We are using LOG for my 2nd grader and 4th grader. We started in September, and should be done with the workbooks in another couple of weeks. I guess they are a bit too gentle for us. I do agree that what they are learning doesn't "stick" without practice in writing.
I am looking at Primary Language Lessons (the new color version, with larger type)and Intermediate Language Lessons, to begin after Christmas. I do like the idea of a "relaxed, structured approach."
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Heliodora
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I like to use the Kolbe Ignatius Speaks and Writes, also, for first and second grade- I start them once the child can read somewhat.
I also have been using Easy Grammar for the last couple years and we love it. And this year, instead of agonizing over making my own plans for copywork and letter writing and such, I am now using Hillside's Primary and Intermediate Language Lessons, through grade five. I don't think it's necessary to do more than four days a week of each, and I keep the lessons short (using MODG as a guide.) That's about when I've decided to make the transition to the Institute for Excellence in Writing, continuing with Easy Grammar until eighth grade (at least that's the plan- we're on seventh right now with my oldest.)
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: Dropping our LA - do I need to replace?
