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ann@home
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| Posted: June 12 2007 at 4:10pm | IP Logged
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My son is 8.5yrs old and we've done no formal writing program. His writing comes from copywork, fill in the blank sentences in his phonics workbook, and an occasional guided journal entry-2 sentences tops.
We've also done just the first part of FLL for grammar.
We read aloud daily too.
Today I asked him to write 2 sentences based on a short thing we read in his phonics book. I told him he could not copy the sentences from the passage but could look at it to help spell words.
Well....He couldn't write a complete sentence and his spelling was not even close on most words! I feel so frustrated that he has not picked up more sight words-he spelled "the"=thu and squeezed=sqesd and mouse=mows just as a few examples. He doesn't retain spelling words and everything is phonetic-obviously from those words.
We've complete book 5 of ETC and about 1/2 done with R&S spelling-we only do it about 1x per week because I thought he should pick up more spelling from reading.
he does fine in the books and can read the directions and understand them. But have him do something independent and it all flies out the window! 
I'm kind of at a loss here, I'm not sure what else to do. He's average or a little above in math and his comprehension is good. It's just the writing and very basic grammar I guess. Do I step up the work or stay as we are and it will come? I'm all for not pushing things but by 9yrs old I think they really should have some of these basics down. I don't want him to write a book, just some simple sentences.
I was planning on using Just Write for 3rd grade this fall and then go to Writing Tales after that in late spring or 4th grade. But there's no way he's ready for either of those at this rate.
Thoughts?
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Ann, Full-time Mama of a 10yr old Lego master, 7yr old DIVA, 4yr old King of the Mountain and one more in June '09!
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nicole-amdg
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| Posted: June 13 2007 at 1:38pm | IP Logged
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I have a ds similar to the description you gave. I have had two things that helped. We did a word bank for common words and words he'd already mastered. This helped with independent recall, when I could say "That's one of your sight words." Perhaps it could help with spelling.
For spelling, last year we used the method Hahn describes in the back of Homeward Bound (Ruth Beechick's method, I believe) every day. I was surprised both at how well he did the work and at how effective it was without overwhelming him with work.
Given your son's reading fluency, my guess is that if he had more practice on a regular basis, just some short little sessions of spelling and composing on his own, he could surprise you with some very quick progress. I'm going to be watching this for replies--very interested in any suggestions made.
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saintanneshs
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| Posted: June 14 2007 at 10:59pm | IP Logged
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Hi Ann
This is kind of a dumb question considering the fact that this is a CCM board, but are you leaning more towards a CM philosophy with learning to write or are you open to anything?
The reason I ask is because unlike every other area of learning, when it comes to writing I find that I depart from CM philosophy. I think this is because I was required to teach my kindergarten and 1st grade students to write (and write well) in the ps system. I like the way my students learned writing right along with reading and narrating, and not after...a little more Montessori in the steps of learning to write and a little less Charlotte Mason.
Anyway, I can share how I'm teaching my own kids to write and spell (which is how I taught my students) and it isn't hard. But before I post the details I'll wait to see if you're interested 'cause I know I'm in the wrong place to post them if you're not!
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ann@home
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| Posted: June 14 2007 at 11:08pm | IP Logged
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Oh, I'm definitely open to new ideas-we're pretty eclectic with our education needs/methods. While I love the CM philosophy we don't stick to it very closely at this point, though I hope to more in the future-I'm still learning.
So yes, I'd love to hear more about what you do.
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Ann, Full-time Mama of a 10yr old Lego master, 7yr old DIVA, 4yr old King of the Mountain and one more in June '09!
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saintanneshs
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| Posted: June 15 2007 at 1:31am | IP Logged
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Well Ann, it's nothing special, but here's what we do (how I taught writing to my kindergarteners and 1st graders and how I'm teaching my own kids):
When my kids have the fine motor skills for holding a pencil and they're ready to read, as soon as we begin our alphabet study we begin writing. It starts out as letter practice, which obviously your son doesn't need, so I'll skip all the visual, tactile, spatial things we do there. As soon as the kids have had a chance to practice writing their letters, we begin journal writing (a big deal..."woo-hoo, you get to do journals now!")
Just as a side note: *I don't neglect narration for them in order to devote more time to writing, but rather encourage both at different times. They still do lots of narrating, but when it's time to write, we write.
Usually we'll all get started with a read-aloud on the couch together. Afterward comes the narration (usually volunteered) and then the writing activity at the table. I call it journaling. There's a "topic" that's somehow related to what we've read. This can be as creative as I want it to be. I have a few books on my shelves for inspiration like Scholastic's Real Life Writing Activities Based on Favorite Picture Books by Gloria Rothstein, Using Caldecotts Across the Curriculum by Joan Novelli (this one has a great "Writer's Corner" section, filled with great ideas for every story listed) and Teaching Story Elements with Favorite Picture Books by Ellen Tarlow. I bought these books from Amazon but they're totally not necessary. They just help vary the types of writing we do.
When my little ones are first learning to write, I know it will be a mess, so the expectations are for the child to get something on paper, even if it's only the first letter of a few words. There are many degrees of success. So if my topic is something like, "What was your favorite part of our trip to the apple orchard?" and my 4yo writes "i lk p ap" (I like picking apples.)then that's something. Now I realize that he's just forming his ability to put together letters and sounds and that he's had little to no practice, so this isn't an exercise in anything other than guidance. He lets me know when he's ready to share his paper with me and I take a look. The letters are off the lines, it's all jumbled up together, there's no punctuation or capitalization. In short, to me it's a big ole mess. But to him it's a masterpiece; a culmination of 4 years worth of learning. So I start off by recognizing what he did correctly but never using the words, "Let's look at what you did well" which implies that part of the work is a failure. Instead I have him read his paper to me and then do a "show and tell" where the words are and which letters he heard in the words. This is the beginning and I know you totally don't need this, but I wanted to share how I get started because it sets the tone for the writing process, right from the start.
Then comes the part where as he re-reads his writing to me, he hands me a pen of his choosing (my kids like to pick the colors) and I write what he said directly above each word. Now some would say I'm defacing my child's masterpiece and insulting his efforts. I disagree. This is lesson time and he needs to learn how to write. Now if he should bring me a love note later with similar writing in it, I wouldn't do anything but hug him and thank him for such a beautiful gift. Anything he writes outside of lesson time is his to glorify in. But when he writes during lesson time, he needs to learn how to write. Just my opinion, I know. Anyway, after I've written the right words above his, we read it together. he touches the paper just below the words I've written and reads them aloud with me until he can do it all by himself. (And my kids usually don't mind this at all.) Then, if the child's attention span hasn't been exhausted, and it usually hasn't because the whole thing has really just taken about 5 or so minutes, I pick one aspect of the writing and on the back of the previous page in their journals or notebooks (not on their page) I do a little lesson. Maybe it's on a sound (if they missed a sound in a word) like my 4yo above. I'll do a 5-minute, 3-period lesson on words that start with the missed sound: I write them, and tell them; he finds and points to them; I ask him where ____ is and he shows me, and then we're done. ...Maybe it's on beginning a sentence with a capital letter. Same process (3 pd. lesson) ...Maybe it's a verb tense. Whatever it is that my child needs help with, I do the short lesson and we move on. My child then has a physical reference for their next attempts at writing and as they write more frequently, they gain confidence and become resourceful in their use of the lessons/references we've created.
This is part of how I teach spelling. I just write the right word above my child's and once it's been in a lesson, we can refer back to it if necessary. It becomes fun game to see if he can spell it without looking the next day (and we keep going until he's got it).
A few things I try to do that help eliminate writing stress...
-I give spellings for unfamiliar words. If my 7yo wants to know how to spell "chocolate" I'll ask him to do it with me, usually allowing him to take the lead orally while I write out his guess on the board. If the word is in a story we've read he will sometimes say that it doesn't look right as I've written out his guess, and then we'll fix it. I have no problem giving out words he hasn't asked for before, but if it's in his journal already he has to look it up and he's usually excited to go looking for it.
-If I vary the type of writing, I model it for him first and for the first few times I'll let him mostly copy mine until he gets comfortable (with say, poetry). He's already familiar with what writing looks like, having done copywork.
-I start small. This year my 4yo will only work on getting the letters he hears down on paper. We'll spend this year working on their appearance, forming words with them, and helping them to "sit on the line." (this will take 15 minutes MAX) My 5yo can already write sentences. He's a better writer than reader. Because he already spells his words phonetically, we've spent the year working on capital letters, spaces between words, ending punctuation. He can write 3 short sentences, no problem. My 7yo has already done what the 4yo and 5yo have done and since he can write at least 4-5 sentences on topic, we're working on paragraphs. His writing takes a little longer, so when the 15 minute lesson time is up he shows me what he's done and we pick it up tomorrow where we left off. All three will have many chances to narrate and do copywork at other times in our week.
-I choose only 1 thing to work on (per child) at a time. Even if there are 10 things that need my attention, I only address 1.
Okay, I hope what I've written is a little helpful. I didn't mean to go on so. When someone's explaining things to me, I usually get caught up in the details so when I'm explaining things sometimes I go a little overboard. Mostly with writing, I find that it's the frequent opportunity to write that gives kids confidence. They also like to share what they've written with others, especially if the "audience" loves them and is proud of whatever they do. I know Miss Mason would not agree, but my students and my children can narrate creatively AND they can write. No, it's not on the same level. My 7yo can narrate whole pages and has narrated the most beautiful homemade "book" but he couldn't have written it without great frustration, so I've separated the tasks. The writing we do is skill-oriented. It's short and purposeful. It's real-life writing. It exposes the kids to the many forms of writing: letters, e-mails, postcards, poems, recipes, invitations, notes, lists, diary entries, messages, etc. It shows a skill level progression and builds vocabulary and spelling skills, not to mention confidence.
And it isn't fancy. It's just sitting down for 15 minutes each day to write.
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Kristine
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MichelleW
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| Posted: June 15 2007 at 11:13am | IP Logged
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Kristine! That is so helpful! Thanks so much. I need to print this and put it in my writing folder for next year.
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saintanneshs
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| Posted: June 15 2007 at 12:17pm | IP Logged
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Oh, it's nothing profound...just tried and true wisdom of those that came before me...I'm still learning too! But you're welcome, Michelle.
Oh and I thought of one more thing to add to the list of ways to eliminate writing stress:
-If you choose to teach writing at an early age, I wouldn't expect to be able to walk away from little children while they write. It totally stresses my kids out when I ask them to write something and then leave the table to change the baby's diaper. Unlike lots of other areas of our curriculum where tasks can be done independently or with less of my physical presence, writing has required 100% of my focused attention, as the kids need me to be available for questions. This isn't a problem though because I've found that if I'm there for them (just in case) they get started right away and finish a significant amount, if not all, before our writing time is up.
I hope the moms here who have had great success with Miss Mason's philosophy on facilitating writing don't mind me posting an alternate way of going about this. I just couldn't wait to teach writing until my children were older, not because I don't think excellent writing can happen at a later age if the steps leading up to it are mastered in the early years. I do believe it! I just couldn't ignore my intuition telling me to stick with what I know works, having used it in my teaching career. I think it's really neat that 2 children who've learned to write using different methods can arrive at the same place in the long run.
Okay, I've written enough on this topic!
Can you tell I love to teach writing?
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ann@home
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| Posted: June 18 2007 at 12:25am | IP Logged
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Thank you Kristine! I just got back from our local hs conference and I went to a session on spelling that was dreadful! It was VERY detail oriented, long sequences of things, and would suck the life out of any child's love of learning. I won't mention any names....
So to come back and read this it's very refreshing
Thanks again
Ann
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: Dec 18 2009 at 11:32pm | IP Logged
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I'm bumping this.....
.....because Kristine's (saintanneshs) description of her "writing process" for the early elementary is intersting and worth reading. (It's the longer post...5th one down from the top).
My dd#3 is in 1/2 day Kindergarten this year and this is EXACTLY what her teacher does. Write/Journal....Say it...Correct....Read it....pick one thing. Her journal entries are SO NEAT!
It is pretty interesting, as this is not at all what I did with my first 2 girls and they have been much more "reluctant" to write anything on their own...which is fine and I'm not worried about it......cuz they ARE only 7.5 and 8.5....and I AM finally seeing them become more excited and not so "afraid" to write words and sentences now on their own....which goes along with a CM concept.
BUT, dd-6, who is "doing this sort of writing/journaling" is much more prolific with her writing at such a young age and has so much FUN with it..she's not "afraid" like the other two were. It could also be "her", of course.....but I still think it's interesting.
saintanneshs wrote:
| I think it's really neat that 2 children who've learned to write using different methods can arrive at the same place in the long run. |
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So true!!!!!
Anyway, just bumping, cuz I'm looking at a tad bit more "writing" for my older two next term and found this and thought it was worth a BUMP!
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Suzanne in ID
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Paula in MN
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| Posted: Dec 19 2009 at 6:50am | IP Logged
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I've noticed this with my kids, also. I didn't do this with my dd10 and it shows in comparison to what my ds7 is doing.
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Paula
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Erin
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| Posted: Dec 19 2009 at 1:50pm | IP Logged
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Kristine's description is definitely worth reading, in fact I believe I shall implement it in the new school year.
For what it's worth, I do regret being more laid back with my older ones, writing doesn't 'just happen'. There is a reason I write and spell well, it's because it was expected of me daily. I'm afraid I neglected to enforce that with my older ones  having a second chance with my younger children I'm having higher expectations and receiving better results.
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melanie
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| Posted: Dec 19 2009 at 2:41pm | IP Logged
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Well, spelling...I'm no help there. My two oldest ones are horrible spellers. They do improve a smidge each year, that's my only blessing, but boy, it's pretty bad.
For writing, I have had luck seperating the composition part from the physical act of writing. My daughter is dyslexic and has a terrible time with writing. When we first started doing stuff besides copywork, I would have her narrate to me first. I would write down her words, double spaced, on paper and then have her copy down what I wrote right under what I wrote...which were her words to begin with. Does that make sense? So it's still her composition, but it's broken up into two steps. We did it this way for all of fifth/sixth grade, and this year, in 7th grade, she can put the two together and write her own stuff. It's not very *good* stuff,,,lol. But that's another step...
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Melanie
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: writing and a 8-9yr old
