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Anonymous
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| Posted: June 14 2006 at 6:10pm | IP Logged
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OK... This is a pretty disturbing subject, and maybe I am over-reacting, but today at our nature outing, one kid (6 or 7) deliberately killed a small garter snake. 
Should I have told his mother? He really thought he had done the right thing, and was proud of it. Is it just a boy thing?
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: June 14 2006 at 6:20pm | IP Logged
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Is it a boy thing or a snake thing or a bloodlust thing? I guess my question is: did he think he was defending the group against a dangerous snake or did he know it was a harmless snake and he killed it for the "thrill" of it? The first is a mistake. The second is disturbing. Either way, you should tell his mom.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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guitarnan
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| Posted: June 14 2006 at 8:01pm | IP Logged
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Please tell the mom. But...be aware that in many families, the only good snake is a dead snake. We go to great lengths in our family to keep all creatures larger than a mosquito or housefly alive (I trap spiders and move them outside). I was shocked to discover that other folks don't feel this way! So, this may be just acting out what this child has been taught, at home or elsewhere.
At such a young age, it's probably less worrisome than if the child in question were a teen.
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JennGM
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| Posted: June 14 2006 at 8:04pm | IP Logged
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guitarnan wrote:
| Please tell the mom. But...be aware that in many families, the only good snake is a dead snake. |
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I'm afraid my family would fit in this category. We don't know any difference of snakes. Our paradigm is extremely different than yours MacBeth. That child would be the hero when I was growing up!
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: June 14 2006 at 8:42pm | IP Logged
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I would definitely tell the mom, but also be ready for that "only good snake is a dead snake" attitude. I really don't get it, but it is not uncommon. Same thing with spiders.
It is possible the child just didn't know any better and it might be a great opportunity for him to learn.
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mary
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| Posted: June 14 2006 at 10:00pm | IP Logged
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some moms really don't teach that living animals should be protected/observed. it is not a boy thing, it's a view of animals that comes from the parents. i would certainly talk to the parent about it and tell her/him that you were disturbed by the killing.
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theNetSmith
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| Posted: June 14 2006 at 10:26pm | IP Logged
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based upon the age of the child in question, i would say that it is not the 'boy thing'. wouldn't surprise me in one a few years older.
my guess is that it was done out of fear. a 6-7yo child has no idea what kind of snake it is, the level of danger posed, etc.
then again, if you witnessed the deed and the boy appeared to do it out of sheer malice...something's wrong with that picture.
-T
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Meredith
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| Posted: June 15 2006 at 9:31am | IP Logged
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Well, coming from someone who has an ENORMOUS fear of large spiders "coin-sized" and bigger, I would say that I think I would have to kill it or have someone else remove it. That said, I wouldn't think of it for a snake or any other insect for that matter. I know this probably isn't helpful and I'm not a 6 yo boy, but that's my unfortunate perspective du to my great fear
I would certainly discuss it with the parents and heed all the other great advice here with regards to how they might respond 
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Willa
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| Posted: June 15 2006 at 10:18am | IP Logged
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Yes, at age 6 or 7 it would be probably a family culture thing. As Jenn pointed out, from some perspectives the child was being pretty courageous! From his reaction to what he'd done it sounds like he came from that perspective!
Maybe laying some ground guidelines for future nature outings would be useful. For my kids it is a bit disturbing to see a harmless creature hurt or killed. So there is the topic of distressing or hardening the other kids who were on the outing.
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ALmom
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| Posted: June 15 2006 at 11:38am | IP Logged
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I find it very common here for people to be deathly afraid of snakes - and many in our area would kill a harmless garter snake thinking it might be poisonous as there are many very poisonous snakes common in our areas, even residential neighborhoods (copperhead, rattlers, etc.).
One thing that really helps is not to overreact to the other people's fear. The killing is not generally malicious and tends to be well intentioned. We have found these folks generally respond to sharing real information in a setting that doesn't put them in direct confrontation. They might tend to see the issue as a "animals above people activism" if it is presented in a more confrontational way. We get pretty riled up at farms taken from farmers because their tractor happened to run over an endangered species or the lady that declared on public radio that she would allow a snake to bite and kill her child and would not kill it for any reason. I'm not saying not to talk to the mom as the parents certainly have a right to know. However, try to be very, very careful not to come across as judgemental. If you can look at it as an opportunity and perhaps enlist her in planning an educational event for the whole group so that everyone can learn to identify and appreciate snakes and be able to distinguish poisonous from non-poisonous. Perhaps you could express concern about what might have happened had the snake really been a poisonous one. If it had been, you probably would have been in the ER with snake bite! This way you are enlisting the mom on the same side and not confronting her directly about family attitudes. You are also not accusing her son of insensitivity, etc. so you are more likely to accomplish what you need to accomplish.
We have garter snakes around here that eat other snakes, so when we saw one we pointed this out to those fearful around us. Identifying the specifics of what it does is helpful - eating mice, eating other (perhaps poisonous snakes). It also helps them to know that going after a poisonous snake is the most common way people are bitten, so unless it is truely a matter of imminent self-defense, you are better off leaving the poisonous snakes alone - and take reasonable precautions like not sticking a hand under a rock without seeing what is there.
Try not to make a big deal of it with the parents or you may put them on the defensive. Perhaps you could put together an educational event for parents and children together. Around here, zoo people are happy to give talks (and bring real live snakes) to demonstrate both how to distinguish poisonous from non-poisonous, the benefits of snakes, normal and reasonable precautions to take in the woods or on nature walks, and the best response if you do see a poisonous snake. We have all had the opportunity to actually touch snakes (they have a wonderful silky feel - not slimey). It sounds like for the safety and well being of the children accompanying you, the children do need to have this education and you might as well educate the parents at the same time.
Then you could establish ground rules based on what you learned. All of this would not embarrass or put the child on the spot for what was probably an error in judgement (I suspect he thought he was defending his pals from a dangerous snake) while still making sure that everyone is educated.
Hope this helps.
Janet
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4Real Forums : Exploring God's Creation in Nature and Science
Topic: kids who kill things
