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Natalia
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Marybeth wrote:
I don't box myself into what others perceive as feminine... |
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This statement goes along with something I have been thinking about. After all the modesty threads and the talks about skirts being more feminine than pants, I was thinking what made a woman truly feminine? It has to be more than the clothes she wears, right? Is it her attitude? what are the traits you consider essencial to being feminine? In other words, how would you define the essence of femininity? Is a woman feminine just for the sake of being a woman? or is femininity a culturally define concept?
I hope you ladies are up for some philosophical discussion. I have a talent for asking the wrong questions at the wrong time...
Natalia
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Elizabeth
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Wow! This a great question to ponder, Natalia! Hmmm...
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Willa
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I used to think that femininity was a culturally defined construct. I don't anymore. I think there is a basic receptivity in the feminine identity that is echoed or incarnated in our biology.
Things like dresses, being a housewife etc are accidents. I mean, they may better reflect our essence than the alternatives. Helen said modesty was the external appearance reflecting the inward truth and this is what Thomas Aquinas said, too. But they themselves aren't what makes the essence of femininity.
I have to go and that's probably rather oversimplifed but will have to stand for now since I need to be responsive to my preschooler right now
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Helen
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While I was in Guatemala, I thought that the women there looked very feminine. I didn't go out of the hotel too much, so the women were in uniforms, but still there was something very feminine.
I've been trying to put my finger on this idea. When I asked my husband,
What can I learn from these women and this culture? He advised me to make my considerations in light of Our Lady of Guadalupe.
When I've looked upon her image with these ideas in my head, I see Our Lady ...
expecting a child
a queen with power yet not flaunting it
eyes cast down
tenderness
hands folded in prayer
an angel at her feet
I've really wanted to bring these ideas together - maybe we can all work on it?
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Bridget
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Philosophy is really Elizabeth and Willa's department. 
Maybe these traits Helen mentioned show a disinterest in self. A cheerful giving of self to others that is more natural to femininity.
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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Genevieve
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Feminity has multi-faceted for me. When Helen mentioned about the women in Guatemala being very feminine, I thought about how when I first arrived in America, how masculine the women are compared to Asia. That is before I "met" all of you. :) It was apparent in the way they carried themselves, the way their hands waved about, how their voices were rather loud. Perhaps it's just a cultural perspective. Louder voices, bigger movements to me, were always associated with men rather than females. At fourteen, all the ladies in my school took a ettiquette course. We were taught to sit with our legs slanting at an angle, hands folded on the lap etc. Submissiveness were further re-enforced with regards to our elders. They always took the first bite. You had to be careful not to sit at the head of the table. The list goes on. I know this sounds too meticulous but everything was a symbol for something. The way you handled yourself and address the other was an indication of your order in society. And maybe that is basically what my wandering thoughts are driving at. That all actions and even dress code is an indication of the inward orientation, truth as Willa calls it. Yet submissiveness and gentleness that is commonly associated with feminity aren't what is always required of sainthood. Saint Joan of Arc is obvious example. So perhaps there isn't any clear cut answer. Perhaps being biologically female gives me the inclination to be submissive, gentle, home-orientated, but if God is calling me to some more "masculine"role, would I deny him for the sake of feminity?
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MarieC
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Genevieve wrote:
| Louder voices, bigger movements to me, were always associated with men rather than females. At fourteen, all the ladies in my school took a ettiquette course. We were taught to sit with our legs slanting at an angle, hands folded on the lap etc. |
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I think that this may have been the case here too in years past as this sounds like something my dad would find lacking in feminity. I think we've just lost the social graces that looked on feminine behavior as a behavior worth cultivating. I think that loss has been largely accomplished by the women...I think men still value a woman being different.
We had a session or two on lady-like behavior when I was in high school (about 20 years ago; all-girls & Catholic) and we thought it was a big joke. That's a pretty sad situation.
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Genevieve
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MarieC wrote:
| We had a session or two on lady-like behavior when I was in high school (about 20 years ago; all-girls & Catholic) and we thought it was a big joke. |
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In my school, you get a grade. A three hour exam, where you spent the day with the examiner, walking, dining and talking. I think my elders were more strict than the examiner though. The last time I checked, they still hold that mandatory class.
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Lisbet
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Marie, when I think of what feminine looks like, you and your girls come right to my mind. You have had a profound influence on my recent return to dresses. (remember our hush hush talk at the library! )
I'm going to think about this topic a bit!
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Servant2theKing
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Very interesting thoughts. Perhaps true feminity involves being comfortable with ourselves and being content with who God created us to be as women, wives, mothers, daughters, sisters and friends. Too many women in this culture work so hard at projecting an image, always trying to be what they think others want them to be, instead of prayerfully discerning what God wishes them to be. When we carry ourselves with dignity and grace, knowing that we are daughters of the Lord, the difference is palpable and conveys the kind of femininity recognizable in other cultures. We can begin anew, within our own generation, and with our daughters and granddaughters, to form a Marylike culture of femininity that others will notice when they have been in our presence. God bless you all as you seek the Lord's wisdom in embracing your femininity!
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guitarnan
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I think it's important to look toward Mary and the saints for examples...they had so many ways of being feminine yet asserting themselves when necessary. St. Hildegard of Bingen took on the greatest personalities of her day (St. Bernard of Clairvaux, for ex.) and always began her letters with phrases that showed she was striving toward humility at all times. St. Catherine of Siena, who dared to tell a Pope to come home to Rome, also wrote in very humble terms. (Of course, then she said that it was time to get back to Rome!)
I'm not necessarily equating humility and femininity, but for me it's usually good to look toward those ladies who've been canonized to find examples of God's purpose in the lives of women. There are so many ways to be feminine, faithful and humble...we are so blessed to have many wonderful examples!
One of my friends loves the example of St. Gianna Molla, for example, because she put her vocation of motherhood before all else; she literally gave her life for her family. Even now, pregnancy is a health risk; it's important to know that the risks are worth everything, and that God blesses us for taking these risks on behalf of new life.
I do think it's important, as Servant has pointed out, to pray for wisdom and discernment. I would never have pictured myself as a homeschooling mom, sans-career, 20 years ago. I really thought that fulfillment came via the secular world. I'm so blessed to have a husband who saw that homeschooling was necessary for us...and we've never regretted that choice. I feel so much more complete at home, with my children, making a happy haven for all of us, than I ever did earning paychecks. It's not easy (no plasma TV! not that I watch it...), but it's right for us.
I think God created us all in His image. His image includes the feminine, imho. When my dh was baptized, the homily for that day (Pentecost) was all about the feminine attributes of God. It was great...the idea that God loves, nurtures, cherishes, calls us home, waits for us to appear in the distance (didn't your mom watch for you as you got off the bus?)...those are all totally feminine characteristics.
I also think it's really important to pray for discernment of your role at each stage of life. As long as I feel that God's calling me to do something, I am strong against the mainstream culture and can easily handle criticism, regardless of its source. It's only when I doubt that I'm on the right path that things get hard. A few times, I've actually told Satan to get behind me...and I've immediately felt better about my place in this world.
Culture is external...it might, indeed, form part of God's plan, but His likeness is within all of us. I believe women are feminine because we reflect certain attributes of God...
Children around the world dance to music. Folk melodies that are essentially the same were created by people on different continents, who never met each other. People throughout history have tried to discern how we got here and what our purpose on earth might be. This is beyond a culture or civilization...God made us all this way. I guess you'd call it "hard-wiring" but I prefer to think of it as being made in the image and likeness of our Creator. We're called to live up to His expectations and to do that as men and as women.
Great question. I am looking forward to everyone's thougths!
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Patrick
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Here's a few insights into femininity from what I learned in school:
I think femininity can be summed up in one word: motherhood.
All women are called to be mother and can't help but to be mothers (as opposed to men who are all called to be fathers, but have to learn how to become one). This can be seen in that women image Mary who is simply who she is, a woman and mother so women too are simply who they are. Men image Christ who is God so men can never really become who they are and this tends to cause problems for us.
The woman is more private than the man as she tends to handle the internal affairs of the home and this also relates to that she carries a child within herself.
As was said above, she is more patient and receptive. The woman doesn't initiate the relationship with the man, but in the first place receives an invitation from him (although he is responding to her beauty). This receptivity is played out at all levels of conjugal love.
Even the biological elements that differentiate women from men show that she is meant to be mother. Women have wombs and more elastic joints to help with childbirth. They have breasts to nourish their children and a mind that's geared towards multitasking (rather than detail orientedness in a single task) and empathy to aid in raising them.
I would argue that a woman's dress is more than simply accidental. A skirt or dress veils her body, which is a reflection of her tendency towards inwardness. A man's dress is geared towards practicality, power, and outwardness whereas the woman's dress is geared towards beauty.
Just some thoughts off the top of my head. There's certainly more to it than that.
Patrick
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Servant2theKing
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This is such a beautiful subject to contemplate as we begin Advent. A priest gave a wonderful homily once, in which he expounded upon what it meant for Mary to give her "Fiat" to God. He said that "fiat" means to say "yes", but not simply as a mere agreement to do something...to give one's fiat means to say yes with their entire self, with every fiber of their being, which is what Mary did in giving her Fiat to the Lord. If we echo Mary's fiat in embracing our femininity, the results can be life changing, for ourselves and others around us....we can even alter the world, one woman at a time! "The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world" is not a trite saying, it is wondrously true! The late Father John Hardon described womanhood as "life bearing...incredible food for contemplating our roles as women of God.
There is a phrase in the Act of Consecration to the Holy Spirit prayer from the Holy Spirit Novena, which says, "In Him we live and move and have our being"...imagine the possibilities when we live in full communion with the Lord and give our total fiat to His plan for us as women. May we all prayerfully discern this Advent and Christmas how the Lord is calling us to live out our role as women...in the world, but not of it. The thoughts shared above on humility, the saints and motherhood are beautiful seeds to help us discern how we can best give our "Fiat" to Christ...our Lord, our Saviour, our King.
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MicheleQ
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WJFR wrote:
I used to think that femininity was a culturally defined construct. I don't anymore. I think there is a basic receptivity in the feminine identity that is echoed or incarnated in our biology.
Things like dresses, being a housewife etc are accidents. I mean, they may better reflect our essence than the alternatives. Helen said modesty was the external appearance reflecting the inward truth and this is what Thomas Aquinas said, too. But they themselves aren't what makes the essence of femininity. |
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Willa this is beautifully said! By accidents I take it you mean this in the same way we say that bread and wine are the "accidents" of the Eucharist? That things like dresses, being a housewife, etc. are the physical attributes - that is, what can be seen, touched, etc. but that the true essence of femininity is much more in the "substance" or deepest reality of who we are. I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth here it's just this is what came to my mind when I read your post and it seems so very appropriate to say it that way!
God bless,
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Patrick
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Here's a little bit of philosophy to help clarify her statement. Michele you're right, but I thought this might help to get all of this to make more sense.
Essence is what a thing is to be what it is (go ahead and read it again, I know too many be verbs is confusing). If I turned into a rock, dog, or woman, I would no longer be me, so being a human and a man are essential.
Accident is a property of something that is not essential. If my hair turned red, I lost an arm, or I lost most of my mental faculties (an important one these days) then I would still be me, so these things are accidents.
It's best to not think about the two in terms of physical and spiritual because the two can't be separated. I am man both physically and spiritually.
Substance is a word that I used to think I understood well until I studied Trinitarian theology in depth. Now I'm somewhat clueless, but it still is definitely a good word to use in terms of the Eucharist.
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Natalia
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I am trying to wrap my mind around all these concepts.
I think what is nagging me is this: when I think of femininity I think about attributes of women of the past-good manners, delicate, dressed up at all times,etc. You know what I mean... what people traditionally think of when they think of the word feminine... Someone in a parlor embroidering, dressed in lace, sitting properly. ( I am not trying to ridicule anybody btw, just trying to explain what is going on in my mind). But I don't like to become an anachronism. I want to be able to be feminine and still be a woman of the 21st century. I don't know if this makes any sense at all... I want to be true to what God has created me to be so I figured that if I could put my finger on what is truly-essentially-womanly or feminine I could concentrate on that. I could measure myself against that and see where do I fall in the feminine continuum. Really, I don't even know if I consider myself feminine. I always thought I was. I am happy being a woman. I have never desired to be anything but a woman. I have embraced motherhood ( not without struggles). I have strived to be a good wife and keep a good home (not that there is not room for improvement!) But if femininity is measured by having a desire to wear skirts all the time,or having as many kids as I possibly can (oh gosh! I hope I don't offend anyone. it is not my intention)or having pretty baskets around the house or baking homemade bread every day then I am not as feminine as I thought I was. So should I be striving to change my view on these things so that I can become truly feminine?
Do you see my dilemma? I hesitate to hit the post reply button because I am not sure if I have explained myself well. But here it goes...
Natalia
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Philothea
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Natalia, I could have written your post. I am struggling with these concepts, too. I want to be feminine. But I'm not a girly-girl. I never have been. Ribbons and bows and skirts are just not me. My hair is short and choppy because I can't be bothered to fix it daily, and when it was long I wore it in a bun or ponytail every single day. I cannot stand to wear it down and long. I can count on one hand the number of times I've worn it like that in the last ten years.
I don't dress tomboy, but I do dress the part of the urban sophisticate. Designer jeans and cashmere sweaters have always been my wardrobe staples, and for dress-up I have plenty of dresses, but somehow always end up reaching for a crisp pair of dress slacks, yet another cashmere sweater, and kitten heels or high heeled boots.
I have spent quite a bit of money over the past couple years on long, feminine skirts, always inspired by the wonderful dresses-only women I've met on various Christian and homeschooling websites. They just sit in my closet. I finally found a couple that I actually like to wear, but they are both knit jersey solids and trendy looking. Nothing like the soft florals I see you all wearing.
I asked my DH what he thinks about this discussion, and he tells me he wants me to wear whatever I like to wear within the bounds of good taste. So, no help there.
I can't wrap my head around this topic. Do I change who I've always been to appear more like Mary? Or can I be like Mary in the ways that count without a complete wardrobe and lifestyle overhaul?
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JennGM
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Philothea wrote:
Natalia, I could have written your post. I am struggling with these concepts, too. I want to be feminine. But I'm not a girly-girl. I never have been. Ribbons and bows and skirts are just not me. My hair is short and choppy because I can't be bothered to fix it daily, and when it was long I wore it in a bun or ponytail every single day. I cannot stand to wear it down and long. I can count on one hand the number of times I've worn it like that in the last ten years.
I don't dress tomboy, but I do dress the part of the urban sophisticate. Designer jeans and cashmere sweaters have always been my wardrobe staples, and for dress-up I have plenty of dresses, but somehow always end up reaching for a crisp pair of dress slacks, yet another cashmere sweater, and kitten heels or high heeled boots.
I have spent quite a bit of money over the past couple years on long, feminine skirts, always inspired by the wonderful dresses-only women I've met on various Christian and homeschooling websites. They just sit in my closet. I finally found a couple that I actually like to wear, but they are both knit jersey solids and trendy looking. Nothing like the soft florals I see you all wearing.
I asked my DH what he thinks about this discussion, and he tells me he wants me to wear whatever I like to wear within the bounds of good taste. So, no help there.
I can't wrap my head around this topic. Do I change who I've always been to appear more like Mary? Or can I be like Mary in the ways that count without a complete wardrobe and lifestyle overhaul? |
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Hmm...sounds like you are a Brooks Brother or Talbots type of gal.  I love what you describe. Florals? Not me! I wish I was a bit more fashionable...can't wear cashmere, but I tend to be drawn by nice slacks, crisp blouses, etc.
I'm hitting the hay, but I just wanted to voice there are different "interpretations" of feminine. If I have to wear floral, I'm out. 
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Willa
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I'm not a floral person, either, so it took some trial and error to find skirts that worked for me. But they are out there. When we visit my son's Catholic college campus I'm pleasantly surprised how many DIFFERENT ways there are to wear a skirt -- cute, floral, folky, preppie, the whole gamut of personalities. I like long neutral colored skirts that give me room to be active, and nice cotton long sleeved tops that I can layer with sweaters since I get cold so easily. I can gain a few pounds now in the winter to protect me from the cold, without having to dig out all my "large" clothes.
I read all the modesty literature for years and it didn't convince me. Wearing dresses didn't help me feel more feminine as they promised; it just made me feel hampered and silly. The only argument that made any sense to me at all was the "reparation" argument -- to wear Marian clothes as a penance for all the immodesty in our society. Well, skirts WERE a penance and there was immodesty, so I could buy that, at least on a good day.
However, one day my daughter, who had been valiantly striving to be the only teenager and possibly the only female in our spot in the Sierra Nevadas to wear skirts and dresses consistently rather than on an occasional whim, asked me to try wearing skirts just to support her. Suddenly I realized how difficult it was not just for her, brave soul! but for all the young girls and women who might LIKE to dress in such a way as to distinguish themselves from young men, but who weren't getting that support and role modelling.
So wearing skirts is about love, for me, now. A very particular love for my daughter and a desire to purify myself of my own desire for comfort, since I'll admit I still naturally would prefer my jeans! I have grown to love my skirts however because of my love for my daughter and her ideals. She talks about how the little girls naturally love pretty, nice dresses when they are small -- they want to be "princesses" -- and how soon they grow past that stage and start trying to dress like little Britney Spears, because that's what they are seeing the "big girls" do. I can see that, and it's sad.
I still don't see anything horrifying about a woman wearing nice slacks or even nice jeans; it's so common hereabouts. I think it is difficult for young girls and women, though, to glory in their specific femininity nowadays, except by looking trashy. Being modest nowadays, if you aren't wearing skirts, usually means wearing jeans or slacks and shirts that could easily belong to a man. Or sometimes I see very well dressed women who are wearing long flowing slacks and cardigans that are almost the next thing to skirts and dresses.
I think for the young girls, there is an ambivalence about their unique feminine nature which society expresses by wanting them to dress and even act a bit like boys, only better. It does a disservice to the boys as well.
This is not very philosophical, is it? I started this to post a brief article by Genevieve Kineke The Lost Essence of Femininity. It doesn't talk about apparel specifically; plus I was looking for something by Alice von Hildebrand but couldn't find that. So oh, well...
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Bridget
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WJFR wrote:
I think for the young girls, there is an ambivalence about their unique feminine nature which society expresses by wanting them to dress and even act a bit like boys, only better. It does a disservice to the boys as well.
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Maybe that has contributed to the whole coarsening in society. Women have lost their way and the loss of femininity has hurt on a much deeper level.
The Bishops recently spoke on how coarseness affects society and Church.
Bishop Skyland said "Today vulgarity is common, hardly noticed.... I would suggest to you that the phenomenon is symptomatic of a growing failure in our society; the lack of respect for one another, to see each other as being made in the image and likeness of God."
He wasn't talking about femininity here, but all that we have been talking about, our appearance, our demeanor, can affect society for good or ill.
I think that part of the essence of femininity is holding the bar on standards of courtesy and civility.
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: The Essence of femininity
