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Anonymous
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| Posted: July 17 2006 at 7:09am | IP Logged
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What do you do if your husband thinks Elegant Simplicity is a fine idea for you to work on but he is not a practical help at all? He is a clutter bug at heart and doesn't even see his own mess (though he clearly sees any other mess). Is it possible to have this kind of a home if the entire burden for making it so falls on mom? Even if children are involved, isn't it too hard to do this if Mom is the only adult on board and Dad isn't setting a postivie example? How much do you rely on your husband to help you in the house? What advice do you have for someone with lots of children and a husband who truly doens't see that any household jobs should be his (including picking up after himself)? I don't want my quest for simplicity to end up being a source of resentment. OTOH, I don't want to live in a mess.
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: July 17 2006 at 8:36am | IP Logged
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You and me both.
Though I have found that when an area is clean and organized to begin with, dh is less likely to mess it up. This works a little with the children, too. Maybe when I do all the decluttering I need to do and the house is overall neater, it will inspire him to at least pick up after himself to be an example to the children. I hope.
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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JennGM
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| Posted: July 17 2006 at 9:26am | IP Logged
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If I remember correctly, FlyLady would tell you don't get bogged down by people's lack of cooperation. Not that you are making excuses...you aren't. Just work on the house, little by little. Do it for you and your kids. Have you talked to dh? Is using terms like FlyLady and Elegant Simplicity perhaps making him annoyed? Does he not believe it can be done?
Maybe you can have areas that he can claim as his own, preferably places that you can close the door and not look at it  and he can sift through his stuff on his own time. Without going toe-to-toe or pointing fingers, you can say you are striving to declutter and clean up to create a better learning environment and a loving home.
I've seen personalities that are inspired once the clean is seen. The clutteredness (is that a word ) is overwhelming, and the person can't think where to start, and so just lets it pile up. But once it's clean, it might be easier to keep it up.
But...my poor aunt had to resign herself to piles her whole life. Her husband loved mail, signed up for all sorts of junk mail, and he would spend hours sorting through the piles, making more piles...it was awful. He saved everything, rescued things to fix it later, and didn't. Her only resort was to assign "areas" for him... She also has been a bit sneaky over the years...not that I recommend it. But some of the junk mail she'll just put in a box and send it over to her daughters'. If he doesn't miss it, then it will be chucked. And over the year her grown children have come and purged for him, too. It gets to a point that he's so overwhelmed, he needs help. But having the kids come saves the fights with the wife.
It's not easy. Dh and I struggle with controlling our clutter. We make our piles in different ways, so his piles annoy me, and mine annoy him. Now tell me, how can a pile of books be annoying?  He's cooperative when I get things under control...I just give him gentle nudges, and point out the shining sink and the empty dishwasher. 
Not sure if any of that helps...but I have some empathy for you...and prayers that you can feel better about your home.
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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cathhomeschool
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| Posted: July 17 2006 at 11:23am | IP Logged
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I think that my dh is a clutter-bug at heart (inherited trait, I'm sure!). He doesn't always see his own mess, but the saving grace is that he doesn't see anyone else's either. I'm the only one here that craves order and culling. Poor dh is very willing to cooperate in theory, but he's just built differently than I am in reality!
My parents have a similar problem. My father is very messy (though his office at work was always in perfect order -- which was frustrating proof to my mother that he COULD be tidy). Now he has his own area (home office) that remains cluttered, and my mom just focuses on the rest of the house.
I think that having both parents (or even just the husband) crave tidiness makes all the difference in the world. I've seen it in real life -- the families I know with orderly husbands have very orderly houses in spite of having many children. (Mom, even if she doesn't crave tidiness, usually strives towards it because dh wants it that way.) On the other hand, if the husband doesn't mind disorder, it is much more difficult to stay on top of things.
Anonymous wrote:
| He is a clutter bug at heart and doesn't even see his own mess (though he clearly sees any other mess). |
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This is a problem. If he sees others' messes, then clearly he can *see.* (Sometimes I wonder if men's eyes are just different from women's, because they seem blind at times. ) If he can see others' messes, then he should be able to see his own once engaged in a logical, calm conversation: If it is messy to leave art supplies covering the table or a pile of clean laundry on the couch, why isn't it messy to leave his work papers/books/tools lying out or dirty laundry on the floor? There is no difference (except that ownership of the mess implies responsibility for it, which requires work to correct. If his stuff isn't a mess, then he doesn't have to pick it up.)
Anonymous wrote:
| What advice do you have for someone with lots of children and a husband who truly doesn't see that any household jobs should be his (including picking up after himself)? I don't want my quest for simplicity to end up being a source of resentment. OTOH, I don't want to live in a mess. |
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I think that several things can be done (especially since he minds others' messes, which implies that he wants the virtue of tidiness for his children). First, much prayer should be devoted to this topic. I find that no matter what approach I've taken in the past, the messes and cleaning up bother me much less (and even not at all) when I pray daily for peace.
A common ground could be established. What constitutes a mess? It seems that either his AND your things are messes, or no one's things are messes. If you can't come to a common ground, then maybe he can agree that YOU will respect his idea of messes and do your best, but HE needs to respect your idea of messes and do his best too. Then I would ask him to do a few small tasks -- take your dirty laundry to the hamper or washer as soon as you take them off or first thing next morning. Put all your *stuff* from work in this basket or on this table or in this room. Point out that you are asking this as a favor to you. If he is willing to do these things out of love for you (and my dh knows that for me, those actions are much more meaningful to me than coming home with flowers or buying me anything), then great! Ask if it would be helpful to be reminded when you see his clothes on the floor. If he's unwilling, then ask if he minds you and the kids picking up after him and moving his things to the appropriate spot. Point out that setting a good example is important, even (especially) when we don't want to. If it is important to him that the kids be tidy and clean up after themselves, then he needs to help set that example. He is the head of the household and responsible for more than just delegating. As parents, we must do things for our children's sakes that we don't want to do. Compare setting that example (making that sacrifice) to other difficult areas (like homeschooling your children instead of sending them to school thereby not having them around to make messes, or not going golfing or having other time/money consuming hobbies because they would take time/resources from your children, or striving toward some difficult virtue in yourself that you want your children to have).
Another option is to ask him to relieve you in other ways so that you have time/emotional energy to clean up. Maybe he can grocery shop or run errands or take the younger kids so that you and the older ones (if you're blessed to have older ones!) can clean up. Explain that you can't do it all, and that you need help of some kind. Can you get a cleaning lady to help you? Can you decide that some areas need to remain clean, and other areas can stay messy? I couldn't stand going into the boys' room at night to pray and having to clear a path among the legos. We moved ALL the kids toys out of their rooms and into one area that remains messy all the time, which is fine. I cannot tell you how liberating it has been! I've gotten to where I don't care if they leave their beds unmade (summer) and the school room is full of piles too (summer and school year). Ideally, I'd love to see these areas neat, but it's more important to have the kitchen, dining, and living clean (which isn't actually happening right now, by the way  ). If I have a "haven" of cleanliness somewhere, I find I can better tolerate messes in other areas.
Sorry to be so long winded! As you can tell, I've been working through all these things myself and trying to find that happy medium that will give me some level of order but will give my family freedom to have fun too.
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Husbands & Elegant Simplicity
