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Anonymous
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| Posted: May 20 2009 at 4:52pm | IP Logged
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I hope you can give me some insight into a situation that I’m feeling just sick about.
We went out to dinner last night with a priest friend that we first met about 15 years ago, but had lost touch with for a while. He came to our house for dinner last year while he was in the area, and since then we speak on the phone sometimes (he calls us). He always ends up talking to me for a long time, and for just a few minutes to my dh, which dh and I both noticed, but we didn’t really think anything of it—just that it’s kind of funny that it always turns out like that. Mainly we’ve talked about his new parish (it’s very challenging), his family back in India, and my dh and children. He’s an older man, btw.
Well, when we picked Fr. up, he came around the car to give me a hug, and then after the hug, while my dh was getting in the car, he patted me on the back, but then gave me this smile and patted me on the behind two times. It was so unexpected, I felt stunned and somewhat horrified—but I didn’t say anything. Then, in the car on the way over to the restaurant, he spent the entire time stroking my arm and the back of my neck, which combined with the pats just felt wrong. Again, I didn’t say anything—I think I was still too shocked. My dh was in the back seat, and he didn’t think anything looked terribly inappropriate, but at the time he didn’t know about the pats on the behind.
Dinner was fine, and I was thankful when Fr. sat on the other side of the table next to dh. The conversation was interesting, nothing objectionable.
After dinner we took Fr. back to where he was staying. He gave us both hugs, and a nice blessing after showing us around. He did show other signs of physical affection (hand at my back, for example), but nothing I would have a problem with if it weren’t for the earlier behavior.
I talked to my dh about what happened, and he was upset, but wants to believe that maybe it’s just a cultural thing (as I mentioned, Fr. is Indian). I hope he’s right, but I don’t recall ever experiencing this with Fr. before, and we’ve been with him many times.
I’ve tried to describe last night exactly as it happened because I want some help figuring out if this sick feeling I’m getting is an overreaction. I don’t want to discuss it with my dh--I don’t want him to know how upset I am, and I don’t want him to think poorly of Fr. if I’m just overreacting. As a one not meeting society's expectation of beauty, I have a hard time believing that Fr. was putting the moves on me, in front of my dh no less. I don’t want to confront Fr. about it, either. I have no idea what I would say that wouldn’t sound ridiculous.
Could this be cultural? If it’s just poor judgment, what is the right way to proceed? He wants us to visit him this summer, but at this point, I’m thinking no way.
If you got through all of this, bless you!
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stacykay
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| Posted: May 20 2009 at 5:46pm | IP Logged
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I am no help, except to say I will pray for you! Well, I also want to add, God gives us feelings for a reason, and if you felt uncomfortable, I would say to trust your feelings.
As far as a visit, are you talking a long visit or just getting together again for a dinner out?
Praying!
Stacy in MI
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Sarah M
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| Posted: May 20 2009 at 6:54pm | IP Logged
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Oh my. No help here. But I will certainly pray for you!
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Angie Mc
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| Posted: May 20 2009 at 7:01pm | IP Logged
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I'm so very sorry that you find yourself in this situation and am praying for all involved  .
Objectively, no man (other than my dh) under any circumstances has the right to pat me on the backside...never. This behavior alone is objectively wrong and needs to be addressed. There is no reason for you to make excuses, guess at the motives, or try to stuff your feelings.
I would write down objectively what happened for the record (which you did above)and tell my husband exactly how I feel. Then I would hand the whole situation over to my dh, asking for his protection. My dh would need to pray about what steps to take next, both personally for our family and regarding the possible misuse of the priest's professional trust.
Wife to wife...I would never feel comfortable around this man again. This isn't about not forgiving - which I would - it is about me being very careful about who I allow in my physical space.
Again, I'm SO sorry for all involved and will pray mightily for the Holy Spirit to heal and guide.
Love,
__________________
Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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insegnante
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| Posted: May 20 2009 at 7:11pm | IP Logged
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A bit of an aside, but not meeting society's expectations of beauty doesn't protect women from inappropriate advances. I obviously don't know what this particular priest was thinking, but if anything, I could imagine that women who know or believe they are not so physically attractive may be seen as easier targets for someone like an older priest looking for inappropriate relationships, either because the women may be seen as more likely to tolerate a lot of the inappropriate attention thinking "it couldn't be about that!" or because they may be seen as more likely to appreciate the attention that is more surprising to them.
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Theresa
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aussieannie
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| Posted: May 20 2009 at 7:15pm | IP Logged
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I am so sorry to hear you have be subjected to this. I think Angie has given solid and excellent advice.
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stellamaris
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| Posted: May 20 2009 at 8:53pm | IP Logged
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Praying for all involved in this distressing situation.
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Caroline
Wife to  dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: May 20 2009 at 9:41pm | IP Logged
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I would do exactly as Angie advises.
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Mackfam
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| Posted: May 20 2009 at 9:50pm | IP Logged
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I first want to say that I am praying for you in this situation which I find extremely troubling. I also want to encourage you to trust your instincts on this. Often, we women discount our emotions as something that get in the way of a rational decision, but it is important to remember that God, in His infinite Wisdom, chose to create us with these emotions, and emotions can be good. Emotions can prompt us to take action in a given situation. This is one of those situations. Trust your emotions and your instinct here - they are not betraying you! You are feeling sick because this situation is in no way healthy.
Angie Mc wrote:
| Objectively, no man (other than my dh) under any circumstances has the right to pat me on the backside...never. This behavior alone is objectively wrong and needs to be addressed. |
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I agree. Completely.
Angie Mc wrote:
| ...I would hand the whole situation over to my dh, asking for his protection. |
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Again, wise words. I would do exactly the same thing.
I am praying for you and for all involved in this situation!
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
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Red Cardigan
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I don't want to say anything out of line, here, and I certainly think the wise and prayerful advice offered so far is good.
I'm just not completely sure it goes far enough.
What Anonymous describes seems like something I heard in a "Keeping Children Safe" class (and elsewhere) called "grooming." Grooming is when someone attempts some inappropriate physical contact as a test to see if the other person responds or encourages it. Pedophiles do this very slowly with children, taking pains to break down their natural modesty and reserve by crossing "lines" a little at a time. With adults it may not be so drawn-out or circumspect a process.
I'm not accusing Anonymous's priest friend of trying this on her, necessarily--I'm just concerned that someone who would engage in such inappropriate contact (both the backside touching and the neck touching seem to qualify to me based on her description) might possibly have a habit of doing this sort of thing.
Now, it may be completely innocent etc. But this is 2009; the Scandal is common knowledge. Any priest who isn't VERY mindful of how his behavior can be perceived by the opposite sex--and, indeed, very respectful and reserved in any physical contact he has with them--raises a whole bunch of red flags. Whoever Father is and whatever culture he comes from, he's sat through a ton more "Safety" classes than the average lay person, so he *has to know* that it is simply not appropriate to touch a woman this way--any woman, regardless of friendship.
(A word about culture: I have an Indian pastor, and my dh works with Indians. My observation is that the men in this culture are *more* reserved around women, not less. Our pastor never offers more than a handshake to anybody, male or female.)
But even if, say, this priest comes from a region of India where physical contact is more acceptable, that doesn't change the reality that as a Catholic priest in America today he knows all about the need to conduct himself in such a way that no one could possibly accuse him of any sort of misconduct, and the fact that he apparently ignored all of that training and engaged in some inappropriate touching is of huge concern.
I respect those who suggested Anonymous's husband make the decision how to proceed, here--but if I had a priest friend touch me in the way described, even if my husband were right there the whole time, I would call my diocesan Sex Abuse hotline and report the incident. Why? Because if I found out later that the priest was touching other women or (Heaven forbid!) young girls in this same way--or worse--and I said nothing, I would be devastated.
Please understand--I am NOT accusing Anonymous's priest friend of anything like this. It may be that his actions were entirely innocent and can be explained. Or it may be that he succumbed to a momentary lapse of judgment, too. Either way, though, he needs to be made aware that his behavior was inappropriate--if for no other reason than his own good! At present his actions could put his diocese and his parish in a huge amount of trouble, especially if he ever does have a similar lapse of judgment with an unmarried woman or an underage one.
I know that some may not agree with me, here. But again--this is nearly a decade after the priest abuse scandal broke, and there is no priest in any diocese in America who would tell Anonymous that her friend's hand being placed upon her backside or stroking her neck was NOT something to be concerned about. Like I said before, they've all been through very specific training classes, workshops, presentations etc. outlining what is and what is not acceptable in terms of physical contact--and the contact Anonymous describes would definitely be in the NOT box, with a red flag raised beside it.
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Anonymous
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| Posted: May 21 2009 at 6:48am | IP Logged
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Thank you all so much for your replies! Angie, what you said really resonated with me. As soon as I read it, it validated exactly how I feel.
I still can’t help questioning myself, wondering if I’m reading this all wrong. We’ve known Fr. for so long, and the whole thing just seems so incredibly BIZARRE, so out of the blue. I know it happened, but I don’t want to believe it was done with any bad intention. Fr. knows I am HAPPILY married (and have been for almost 20 years), that my dh and I are practicing Catholics who take our marriage vows very seriously. Fr. himself even mentioned at dinner that we are each other’s path to Heaven.
Regardless of Fr.’s intentions, I don’t think I will ever be comfortable around him, or want him around my children (I have two beautiful preteen daughters, and Fr. might lose a hand if he ever tried patting them on the behind). As much as I like him, I feel like I can’t trust him. I’m considering just not answering the phone anymore when he calls, and not returning his messages. I dread the thought of confronting him with the reason why. I guess I’m a coward, but I don’t want to say anything to him directly if I don’t have to, and I know my dh would follow my lead it I told him that’s what I want to do.
I will discuss it with my dh tonight, and let him know my thoughts on what happened. I already got the feeling when I originally told him about it that he would want to avoid future meetings with Fr. He was reluctant to assume that Fr. had bad intentions, but I know how his mind works, and I could see on his face that he felt as uncomfortable about it as I did. Out of charity for Fr., we decided to drop the subject, but it’s been bothering me more than I expected, and we’ll have to deal with it.
By the way, I am posting via pm’s through the moderators (in order to remain anonymous), so I may not have read all replies when this posts. I'm still very interested in hearing other opinions, if you have one to share. Thanks again.
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Mary Chris
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You have my prayers!
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Blessings, Mary Chris Beardsley
mom to MacKenzie3/95, Carter 12/97 Ronan 3/00 and wife to Jim since 1/92
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Matilda
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| Posted: May 21 2009 at 7:56am | IP Logged
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I am sorry that you are struggling with this and pray that you can find some peace soon. I have to agree with Red though. Just writing it down for your husband, while helpful to your healing process, might not be enough. This is exactly the kind of behavior that is considered inappropriate no matter what Fr.'s intentions were and definitely might be considered "grooming". Again, the actions themselves were wrong, no matter the intention.
You mentioned that Fr. was older. It is entirely possible that his judgment was impaired by his advanced age or perhaps he is taking medication that has had an affect on his impulse control. A superior needs to be aware of this. Nobody wants to think badly of a priest who has been a friend of the family, but that is exactly the kind of mentality that encouraged the scandalous behavior in the past.
It might have been innocent. It might have been a momentary lapse in judgment. But, in charity, Fr. should be made aware that this kind of behavior, no matter how innocently it was meant, is not acceptable today.
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Charlotte (Matilda)
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with bookend boys and a double girl sandwich
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JodieLyn
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I think you've gotten a lot of good information here.
And I also think that taking it to your husband is the FIRST step.
Where you and your husband decide to go from there , well, as others have said it may be that someone needs to come forward. But it also seems to me that "victims" can be more hurt by the system than the orginal situation. Bringing this to a superior may protect others. Or it may not. And it may hurt more than heal.
I don't think we can "require" that of anyone. (unless there's some directive I don't know about that would make it less of a choice). Encourage, sure. But certainly not add to the burden of having this done to them.
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Angie Mc
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| Posted: May 21 2009 at 12:30pm | IP Logged
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Matilda wrote:
| Just writing it down for your husband, while helpful to your healing process, might not be enough. |
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Red Cardigan wrote:
I'm just not completely sure it goes far enough.
What Anonymous describes seems like something I heard in a "Keeping Children Safe" class (and elsewhere) called "grooming."...
I respect those who suggested Anonymous's husband make the decision how to proceed, here--but if I had a priest friend touch me in the way described, ...I would call my diocesan Sex Abuse hotline and report the incident.
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Thanks, Red and Charolette, for the helpful descriptions of behaviors, as well as reasons for taking action. Thanks, too, for helping me to clarify my initial post. My intent was to share the start of the process between wife and husband as I experience it. I didn't mean to imply that this beginning is enough or the end of the process. There are persuasive arguments to made for reporting and there are times when going forward would not be the right thing to do for a particular family. To my understanding, though, the decision to go to the priest's superior or other organizational contact, is still prudential...one made between husband and wife, I think   . Doing a quick search, this Bishop's Statement/Charter addresses the obligations of the American Bishops to their flock, but I don't see that it obligates particular actions on the part of victims. Plus, this Charter specifies acts against children. I haven't found something similar that pertains to adults who recieve unwanted acts. Does anyone have additional information that would help discern our formal obligations?
On a different note...if a woman chooses (whether formally obligated or not) to go forward to confront unwanted behaviors she has received, I would highly recommend not going forward alone. Over the years I've worked with many woman who have been on the receiving end of unwanted behaviors, from slight to death threats. There are systems in place to address these situations, yet women need to know going in that they will most likely need to be thick-skinned, clear-thinking, and willing to speak candidly about what can be private and intimate information. Most women, especially women who are feeling vulnerable, need someone to help, protect, and advocate for them through this process. I even think women who are naturally resiliant and tough under these circumstance (like me) are best served by having an advocate and witness. Husbands are given special graces to protect and defend their wives so they are in an ideal position to help. If for some reason they are not available or special expertise is needed, other support can help as well.
Anonymous, I'm glad that you are feeling some relief and my prayers continue for you. Thanks so much for trusting us with your situation. I hope this dialogue, which by its online nature is limited, is only a help and blessing to you .
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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Red Cardigan
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| Posted: May 21 2009 at 1:43pm | IP Logged
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Just quickly, I don't know about formal requirements for adults, but I do know that as someone in choir who had to take the classes if I *saw* a priest touch a woman's backside I'm pretty sure the document I signed after the class would mean I had to report that.
I know this is a sensitive, difficult matter. But one thing that kept some priests in place too long before was the unwillingness of those approached or victimized to talk about it. I have great sympathy for anyone in this situation--but it's one reason why so many incidents of improper behavior don't get reported, anything from what Anonymous describes to actual rape and anything in between--the victims' shame, fear, doubt and confusion holds them back.
Perhaps in addition to confiding in her husband, Anonymous and her husband could talk about this with their own pastor or good parish priest whom they trust?
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Anonymous
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| Posted: May 21 2009 at 3:16pm | IP Logged
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I wasn’t able to speak to my dh last night—we had too much going on for me to steal a quiet moment with him. Tonight will probably be just as bad, but I’m pretty sure I’ll be able to manage it tomorrow.
I don’t want to give everything over to my dh to handle, and to be honest, he wouldn’t want me to (although he would handle it if I asked him to). One of the reasons our marriage is so happy is that dh is easygoing and laid back, and I’m…not.  We complement each other. Although I know he will give me his opinion, in the end he’ll let me decide how to proceed.
As far as reporting anything to Fr.’s diocese, we’ll discuss that as well. I don’t want to go through a process that would involve multiple contacts with church officials. At most, I could see myself maybe writing a letter to the bishop to allow him to deal with it as he sees best. If Fr.’s breach had been more serious, absolutely I would take it as far as I needed to. But I’m really afraid of making a mountain out of a molehill. Sigh. It’s all so surreal.
This priest is associated with a lot of happy memories I have of our old parish, and those are tainted now. I suppose that will fade with time, but I just really want to forget that any of this ever happened.
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: A Delicate Situation
