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Cheryl
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| Posted: Nov 27 2005 at 12:49pm | IP Logged
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We just came back from Mass and it was difficult for my dh and me. We used to put our ds 5 in the babysitter room, but for the past couple of months there haven't been babysitters, so we've brought him to Mass. The other two, ds 7 and dd 3 used to color quietly, but now all three kids (especially the younger two) are talking, humming, climbing... My dh gave them each a quarter to put in the basket. They kept dropping them on the floor. Ds 7 was spinning it on the pew. I could barely hear the homily or sing songs etc. Do you have any advice on motivating them to behave well? Should we go to Mass more often than once a week? Is it reasonable to expect them to sit quietly for that long? What do you do if they don't behave? I have been threatening them with no food treats for the day, no TV for the day, take a toy away...threats don't seem to work.
The Mass was just the end of a tough week. My dh has been on vacation and I don't know if that has anything to do with this. Monday and Tuesday I cried a lot at night because I think (It's a blur now) my dh was out and I was so exhausted. The kids were talking back and disobeying and I yelled at them which makes me feel really bad. I'm about 5 1/2 months pregnant and I feel like I don't have the energy to be consistent. I let things go, then when I want them to obey me they refuse. I'm saying "they", but it's mostly my ds 5. I have the most trouble with him. I've read that you should work on one habit at a time, but he has so many habits I don't like, that I don't know where to begin. Here are some of them: yelling I want milk! (or whatever he wants), interrupting others while they're talking, humming loudly all through the day, saying "stupid" and "big, fat" whatever, yelling, teasing, refusing to do what is asked of him, making negative comments, lack of gratitude, lack of attention, concentration etc...
My dh and I know we need to make changes, do you have any suggestions on where to begin? I've worked on morning and bedtime routines and feel like those are manageable. It's the rest of the day that I need help with. Mealtimes are particularly chaotic. The noise level bothers me.
Another question-do you make your children go outside to play? My ds 7 goes outside all the time. Most of the time my ds 5 doesn't want to, and I usually let him stay in the house with his toys if he wants to. He complains everytime I make him go for a bike ride or walk.
I've also wondered about my ds 5 being affected by sugar. I've noticed he is out of control when he has chocolate or caffeinated beverages. He was out of control the other day after we went to McDonald's. I've planned on baking some gingerbread, and cookies, etc in the next few weeks. Plus we have birthdays coming up. I wonder if all the sugar could make for more discipline trouble.
I'm sorry if I'm complaining. I love my children very much, and I really don't want to yell at them. I think that if our children are behaving badly, it's because we are not disciplining them well. I'd appreciate any ideas, advice...
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Cheryl
Wife to Bob ('97)
Mom to Matthew 13, Joseph 11, Sarah 10, Rachel 6, Hannah almost 4 and Mary 1
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BrendaPeter
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Hi Cheryl,
You poor thing! I think many of us could have easily written your e-mail.
The 1st thing to do is relax, maybe play some music you like and then allow yourself to feel God's love - maybe even go the Blessed Sacrament. I find if I don't experience His love, mercy & patience with me, then I'm challenged to practice those virtues with others - particularly my children.
It's natural to think that if the kids are misbehaving that we're not doing our job, but try to use that humility to bring you closer to God. Look at it as an opportunity to see how utterly helpless we are & how everything truly depends on Him.
Sure, you can try a schedule, system, etc. or become determined to be more firm, and all these things are fine, but a better idea might be to bring all these issues to Our Lord. He does a much better job at figuring it all out than we do!
Are you able to get up about 30 minutes before the "troops" get up just to spend time praying? I find that this helps me to be much more recollected throughout the morning. Also, when the kids run off to play after lunch, I try to spend some time examining my conscience and making a resolution to try to do better. Also I say some prayers at that time. It's the refreshment I need to get through the day. Before bedtime is a good opportunity to do another examination of conscience so that we have somewhat of a "game plan" for the next day.
I hope some of this helps. I'll say a prayer for you as well!
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Blessings,
Brenda (mom to 6)
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Michaela
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| Posted: Nov 27 2005 at 1:44pm | IP Logged
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(((Cheryl)))
Are you sure you didn't take my Nathan (5yo) with you to Mass? LOL He keeps me on my toes. Two weeks ago, I gave my kids quarters to put in the basket and Nathan dropped his a couple of times. We made a note to never give them change again. LOL It just seemed to echo so loudly!
We sat a few rows back which made it really hard for our little ones to see. During the consecration Nathan kept saying, "I can't see!" I'm melting in humiliation... even though I understand he just wanted to see what was happening. It just seemed like everything he did stood out.
We've learned to make sure they all eat something healthy right before going to Mass, especially our Nathan. Even if it's just oatmeal. The protein helps Nathan. I'll even hand them a cheesestick in the parking lot. We never give anything with sugar or artificial colors in it before Mass because Nathan changes into a child that can't sit still and continually whines to go home. They also aren't allowed to watch tv or play the nintendo games before Mass. They end up fighting with one another and it makes a very unpleasant morning. I have enough going on without the tear fest first thing in the morning.
They don't seem to play with one another during Mass, but DH and I will sit between them to keep their mind focused on Mass not each other.
Wow, it seems like a lot after reading it again. Mainly, they know what's expected of them.
We know they can behave for the hour. If I notice Nathan is having a little problem during Mass, I usually know it's because we didn't stick to what I mentioned above. We've often received compliments on their behavior.
Once in a while, we reward them after Mass if they behave. I don't like to do it because they should just behave without expecting a bribe, but I do like them to know how much we appreciate good behavior.
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Michaela
Momma to Nicholas 16, Nathan 13, Olivia 13, Teresa 6, & Anthony 3
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BrendaPeter
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Hi again Cheryl,
I love what Michaela wrote. It helped me remember to mention that we have developed the habit of discussing appropriate Mass behavior with the children in the car on the way to Mass. It seems that when we forget to do this, we can literally count on misbehavior. What's that saying "an ounce of prevention..."?
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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ALmom
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I suspect you were having a particularly difficult time because of the dh being out of town, you being pregnant and tired and extra stresses to dc and parents when there are more than average disruptions to the normal routine (sugar, differences in how specific events are done, seperation anxiety, etc). In our household, I find that I do need a bit of time to decompress after dh has been gone - and dc are generally more out of sorts before and after a trip like that. So first of all - try to make allowances for yourself and dc on that count and realize that extreme fatigue may color how everything looks. Hope things are looking a little cheerier now.
For what it is worth here are a few ideas that might help:
For Mass behavior, we have found it most helpful to always have all of our dc with us and strategically seperate certain dc especially at certain ages by placing a much older dc between them or a parent. It just becomes a normal part of life that way and we all tend to stress less over behavior of a toddler than an older dc who "should know better". I do think a dc, introduced to Mass at an older age after having a routine of Sunday play/ children's activities with all the physical motion makes it harder on dc and parent once they are introduced to Mass. A young, active boy will find sitting still somewhat difficult and it certainly won't suddenly become the desire of his life at 7 and how would they have learned normal, church behavior or been able to benefit from the grace of the Sacrament by participating to the best of his ability at younger ages when just not being a major distraction is a first step. In reality, how would they know appropriate behavior unless they have been to Mass consistently. We simply ignore nurseries, sitting arrangements, CCD or "children's church" and all attend together as a family and expect to have to spend some time out with dc. Expect and accept that one or the other of you may miss parts of the Mass while tending to dc so that dc does not distract others.
We have found that as long as we remove a fussy dc promptly (and we have had to move quickly with a kicking, screaming dc at times)it is not a major problem. I do try to anticipate but obviously there are occasional times that we are a momentary distraction. However, we NEVER stay in the church with the dc who is fussing, loud, defiant, climbing over nearby people, etc. These dc are promptly, calmly, matter-of-factly removed by a parent and then held in the back (cry room or vestibule if possible) and we continue to participate in the prayers, etc. until they can re-enter quietly and return to the pew. If they are so loud that it is impossible to remain in the church itself without major distraction, then we have taken them to the car and strapped them in the car seat until they are calm enough to go back in. (We have found this rare once we figured out Mass timing, how hot a dc is etc. but sometimes it is easier to find this out when you are outside - it allows everyone else to pray without distraction and you to tend to the dc with greater calmness). One or the other of us have missed communion while tending dc or a great homily - but it is part of what we offer up and an opportunity to teach and model a spiritual communion with a dc who is too young for communion. Another rule we have is that we do not re-enter more than once or twice.
We do not "punish" for bad behavior with a dc who has not yet been trained for Mass behavior but naturally expect to have to exit from time to time out of consideration for everyone else. It is difficult for a few years - but then you have 2 - 3 older trained dc and things get easier as the pull to be big is there. We do distract with church things in the back - having dc give kiss to Mama Mary (blow kiss to statue) or take advantage when notice the nail marks (owies that they want to kiss and make better) and let them know how we come to Mass to tell Jesus how much we love him and how it hurts him when we fuss and scream and keep people from talking to him. Then we encourage dc to go back into church afterwards and spend a few minutes telling Jesus sorry and how much we love him. Our toddlers have always been very responsive to this. Being taken out of church is seen as a punishment of sorts and the greatest desire is to get back in the church. We talk about appropriate behavior and re-enter at an appropriate time.
We have had occassional, rare problems with an older dc or two (at daily Mass when I am by myself, I expect all the older ones to remain in the pew while I take fussy toddler to a cry room). Once two boys began scuffling in the pew - I saw the whole thing building up and finally had to re-enter to address the situation before it escalated to a full fledged fight in Mass. I simply looked at them in my Mom way, sat between them and we continued on (fortunately the baby was reasonably quiet at this point). It was embarrassing as these dc were old enough to know better and had behaved in Mass by themselves many times. I didn't say anything else at the time (I couldn't make a scene in the middle of Mass)but after Mass I did talk with each dc about how sad the behavior made me and Jesus. A prayer before the discussion to cool my own anger, and help with words that really got the boys to see. We re-entered the church for a kind of prayer/penance and skipped the usual after Mass playground.
[My dh spent one Sunday out with an older dc who was misbehaving very badly at a Mass at a monestary where he was so loud that one of the sisters came out to distract him and ended up taking him to the barn to see the cat so my dh could make it to communion. We really felt that this ds needed a consequence as he was older and did know how to behave at Mass. We didn't want him to be rewarded for bad behavior with all the attention from sister, playing with the cat in the barn for the duration of Mass, etc. We were also very embarrassed but since there was some chill time to think what to do, we were led to a real solution. We always plan a special family outing after Masses at the monastery (zoo) which we live too far away from to go on a regular basis but we didn't feel it would be fair to penalize the whole family for this ds behavior (and noticed that it didn't seem to phase him as long as everyone got in trouble too. We ended up driving to the zoo and dad and everyone else went in while ds and I stayed in the car. After he finally settled down, I drove around and gave him a face saving tour of something nearby (not nearly as good as the zoo but it was something to divert the inevitable excitement when everyone else returned). The incident was never mentioned again by anyone in the family(older dc were given a private lesson in not revealing the faults of another and how everything should now be completely forgotten).
It is very difficult sometimes to keep the focus on training the dc and not on our own embarrassment. It also helps to expect to take dc out from time to time so that we don't end up resenting what we miss. Whoever, has missed parts of the Mass with a fussy dc is given extra quiet, prayer time after Mass by themselves after errant dc has done some praying.
One mom we know who had older dc and was at Sunday Mass with all dc without dh found that it helped her to alternate which dc she took with her to daily Mass until Mass behaviour was relearned. She left an older dc in charge of others during that time (or a grandmother, or babysitter) That way she could focus on one dc at a time without the dynamics of all the dc together. This really helped her dc. She did express how hard it was on her with some whose behavior had gotten out of hand, were older and she had to fight comparisons and beating herself about it and just realize - OK I have recognized a problem, now how can I address it most efficiently. Calmness is a key!
Working with dc on prayers, whispering quietly about what is happening all help the attention span. Using a pretend altar, etc. to help them as well as continually building a love for God in all things.
We do not require our younger dc to do all the sitting, standing and kneeling - but as they get older, try to gently encourage kneeling at the moment of consecration and lead by example. We do require that they sit without wandering all over the pew, but overlook normal wiggliness that would not unduly distract those around us. There is some swinging of feet, wiggling, etc.
We have found that participating in Mass where the entire congregation is very reverent helps dramatically in behavior. When dc sees running around the altar, all the adults talking before, during and after Mass in the sanctuary, etc., it makes it doubly hard on dc just learning. We have also talked about how we go to Mass to talk to God, not everyone else. We make a point of only talking in the vestibule - not anywhere else.
We also make sure that our younger dc have a good protein-rich food prior to Mass as well as lots of water and bathroom break and have found earlier Mass times better behavior wise. We do not allow any food, toys or books in church (for us it just becomes a distraction). We plan a wiggle time outside, immediately after Mass if behavior is acceptable and they run around with their friends then.
We try to sit up front (with all 6 dc) so that the dc are able to see what is going on at the altar and are not distracted by the "mom and teen" that are chatting and laughing through the entire Mass. We look for ways for dc to do something - like put the offering envelope in the basket so they look forward to that point.
Got to go .. hope this helps.
Janet
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Rachel May
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| Posted: Nov 27 2005 at 8:17pm | IP Logged
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ALmom wrote:
I do think a dc, introduced to Mass at an older age after having a routine of Sunday play/ children's activities with all the physical motion makes it harder on dc and parent once they are introduced to Mass.... We simply ignore nurseries, sitting arrangements, CCD or "children's church" and all attend together as a family and expect to have to spend some time out with dc. Expect and accept that one or the other of you may miss parts of the Mass while tending to dc so that dc does not distract others.
We have found that participating in Mass where the entire congregation is very reverent helps dramatically in behavior.
We try to sit up front (with all 6 dc) |
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I have to add support to Janet's wonderful post. While my husband was deployed, I fell into the trap of sending the kid's to children's church and putting the littlest in the daycare. All I can say is be strong and take her good advice. We stumbled onto many of the same things she mentioned and over the past 6 months, the kids' behavior has really improved.
I also found that daily mass was a good option for training since it is shorter, but our priest was very supportive. Often we were the only people there, and I would do the readings while Father would sit with the kids (oldest being 5 yo). The first time, before the psalm, I looked at the kids who were acting up and said, "Cut it out!" Father appearantly didn't notice the 4 of them rolling on the floor and asked, "Is that the response?" 
Also, taking a time for Adoration was very good. Sometimes dh could watch them but often they came with me. It was a quiet hour to practice mass behavior, learn about God's house, and deal with issues without bothering anyone. We rarely had anyone come during our hour (4-5pm).
I don't know if you have the same problem that I do, but I will mention it just the same. There is one child who I have an especially difficult time with. This child's difficult (not always naughty) behavior will send me over the edge very quickly. Although dc is sad every week when we set up the seating, this dc is always on the far side of Daddy and not near me. This allows me to deal with the others without being pressed beyond my abilities. Prayer, prayer, prayer is how I deal with this dear little one, and our relationship gets better and better by my constant attention to how much I can take.
Peace,
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Rachel
Thomas and Anthony (10), Maria (8), Charles (6), Cecilia (5), James (3), and Joseph (1)
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momwise
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Cheryl,
I'm being especially challenged by my 5yo ds right now. One thing I've gone back to from when my older dc were young is saying "Yes Jesus" whenever I need to deal with him. I also try to remember to say a short prayer to the Holy Spirit for Wisdom and a quick prayer to ds's patron saint.
My dh doesn't go to Mass so for a while I got into the habit of leaving this child home but about a year ago I became determined to get him into the habit of attending Mass. I never sit in the cry room but from time to time I have to leave the pew with my 14mos. old dd. I let ds come with but he can't play, wander, etc while we are in the narthex. The most helpful consequence for him has been the loss of a privelege immediately after Mass, such as a playground visit or doughnut. I know it's very hard when you're low on energy! Just keep up the prayer.
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Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
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Cheryl
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| Posted: Nov 28 2005 at 7:08pm | IP Logged
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BrendaPeter wrote:
Sure, you can try a schedule, system, etc. or become determined to be more firm, and all these things are fine, but a better idea might be to bring all these issues to Our Lord. He does a much better job at figuring it all out than we do!
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This is so true! I've realized that I was full of fear yesterday and feeling overwhelmed. The last thing I should have been doing is trying to figure it all out. I had a busy evening last night that I was nervous about. Of course everything went fine. I knew I had a midwife appointment this morning and another busy day planned for Tuesday. I felt unprepared for homeschooling, overwhelmed by things that "needed" to be done. I'm going to put the kids to bed now. I look forward to reading more of your responses. Thanks.
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Cheryl
Wife to Bob ('97)
Mom to Matthew 13, Joseph 11, Sarah 10, Rachel 6, Hannah almost 4 and Mary 1
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Cheryl
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| Posted: Nov 28 2005 at 10:05pm | IP Logged
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Wow. Thanks for all your posts.
Janet, I really appreciate you sharing your experiences in detail. I never thought of going to a playground after Mass.
I do find that the kids behave better at an earlier Mass, but we've been sleeping too late to get to the 9:00, so we go to the 11:00.
I'm glad I'm not the only one "challenged" by a 5 yr old. I was thinking during the Mass that I needed to talk to my dh about the seating arrangement. He always sits on the outside and I end up with the 2 younger ones coming at me from both sides. Many times he holds one of them on his lap, but he doesn't separate the dc from each other. My ds 5 usually wants to sit with me. 
I need to get to bed. Thanks for all your help.
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Cheryl
Wife to Bob ('97)
Mom to Matthew 13, Joseph 11, Sarah 10, Rachel 6, Hannah almost 4 and Mary 1
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ALmom
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One other idea - begin the day with a prayer to your guardian angel - and when you are having a particularly difficult time with dc ask for specific help from your own and dc guardian angel. This has always helped us gain an insight into the problem - once it was a dc that simply got too hot and once we got rid of sweaters and long sleeves (even in winter) things went much better with this dc. Without the guardian angels help, I'm not sure I would have picked up on this as dc never felt particularly warm and sometimes insisted on wearing a jacket (as it turns out because he liked the picture on it).
Hope the pace has settled for you a bit. By the way I do have a dc that stresses with too much time away from home and is particularly sensitive to breaks in routine or unexpected plans. All my dc are also sensitive to being rushed - If I have been rushing around and especially if I am rushing them, I am almost certain to have some sort of meltdown from the dc, but especially this dc. I have learned to try and prepare him ahead of time for any outings away from home. I cannot eliminate all the business because of the needs of older dc, but doing preparation ahead of time and letting him know the next days plans the day before makes all the difference in the world!
Janet
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Becky Parker
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We have a 2yo and a 4 yo that are quite a challenge at Mass. We used to take sippy cups of water and a bag of pretzels for each of them as well as books to look at. Well, two weeks ago we decided that was NOT working and went cold turkey. We take nothing with us to Mass now and for two weeks it has been better with the 4yo. The 2yo still gets squirrely but I think it is because our Mass falls right around his usual nap time and he is just tired. My husband or I usually take him out when he gets unruly. We stand in the back of church or in the cry room and hold him. We do not let him down or give him anything to play with. Our hope is that he will finally realize that he would much rather be sitting with the rest of the family. Last week my husband was gone and I was really nervous about taking the kids to church myself. I took a few minutes before we left to remind them about their behavior and we prayed that Jesus and our Guardian Angels would help us to behave. What a difference that made! The 2 yo was still a pain, but 4yo was an angel! The 12 and 6 year olds were good as well, but they aren't usually a problem.
Becky
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Help! Behavior troubles...long post
