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happymama
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| Posted: Aug 20 2007 at 9:44am | IP Logged
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I searched but didn't find a thread on this topic, you can let me know if there is one.
I've read countless parenting books/magazines/websites and spent countless hours discussing parenting and discipline issues with other moms. My husband has zero interest in reading about parenting and hasn't read anything on it. (He's more into say, Money magazine!) I've also spent way more time with other kids than he has, and I have a better idea of whats "normal". I'm not posting to put him down. I'm just wondering if anyone else is dealing with a spouse who wants to discipline in a very different style than you want to.
For example, I always try to analyze why the young children do what they do (are they hungry? tired?) and try to gently encourage them to change their misbehavior. I recognize my own failings and realize that all humans make mistakes sometimes and should be shown mercy. I do use time-outs, apologies, occasionally spankings for serious things and so on, but in general I try to encourage gradual, steady improvement and growth.
Dh basically insists on good behavior, period. He will not tolerate disobedience whatever the circumstances. I think he's too hard, and he thinks I'm too soft. He thinks my softness is the reason for the kids occasional misbehavior (as kids go, they are very well behaved.) Discipline issues are the MAIN source of disagreement in our marriage.
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Martha
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| Posted: Aug 20 2007 at 11:43am | IP Logged
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I'm with dh on this.
Excuses/reasons aside, disobediance is not permitted. It's never occurred to me to let my kids disobey because they are tired or anything else? 
I don't see mercy in that?
I still suffer consequences for my actions, whether I'm tired at the time or not and so do will children.
Of course, they are forgiven too!
I don't know. Sometimes I think patience is way over rated and it can easily become a foundation to allow misbehavior?
Your dh may not have read all those books (I hate almost all those books, btw!) or spent as much time with them, but he knows disobediance and bad behavior when he sees it and knows it to be something not tolerated. My dh says I talk about it (bad behavior) too much and actions speak louder than words. I have to admit it seems he is right as actions seem to garner a more effective and prolonged correction in behavior in my kids.
I say support your dh.
And even if you disagree, don't EVER speak or even hint in your manner of your disagreement with him around the kids! THAT I KNOW is a BAD idea BIG time. His being a stronger disciplinarine (?) is not going to damage the kids, so let him be the dad that he is and ask that he respect the mom that you are.
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happymama
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| Posted: Aug 20 2007 at 12:26pm | IP Logged
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Thanks for responding; just to clarify though, i certainly don't permit disobedience either, i just choose to respond to it differently from dh. Like if my toddler throws an irrational tantrum, and i know it's because his nap is 3 hours over-due, then i will choose to overlook the tantrum itself (viewing it as an unintentional consequence) and put the kid to bed. Hubby would see it as disobedience or whining and spank him and yell at him, trying to force a better response.
Another example: the 2 year old has been without diapers for about 5 months, but still needs help pulling his pants down when the matter is very urgent. (I think he's squeezing his legs together and can't relax enough to pull them down.) I accept this as a temporary stage and help him. The other day when I was out of the house, the 2 year old was standing next to the toilet, dh told him to pull his pants down, but he was crying and wouldn't do it. Dh saw this as disobedience so he wouldn't help him, and ds wet his pants. So dh spanked him and let him stand in the tub crying for 10 minutes to "teach" him a lesson. I just don't agree with this type of a response at all, and I don't see my disagreeing as not being "submissive" to him. I see it as an area where we just need to keep communicating and debating as the kids grow up, because i don't want to compromise where the "emotional safety" of the kids is concerned.
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Rachel May
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| Posted: Aug 20 2007 at 1:18pm | IP Logged
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From your first post I think I would basically agree with Martha. As we grow, we have to learn to maintain self control no matter how tired or hungry, and as adults we still struggle with the same thing. However, we all need help in learning how to keep self control and what are the signs of lack of self control.
From your second post I see a few things. One is that, yes, your husband has a different approach than you do. He addresses the misbehavoir he dislikes directly without addressing the cause. However, you address the cause wihthout addressing the misbehavior (this from these 2 examples). Take the pant wetting example. From what you say, your husband is dealing with the root behavoir only--wet pants. However, you are only dealing with a cause, what you see as a developmental stage where the child gets tense and can't/won't pull down his pants himself.
Can you find a way to take care of both sides of the issue? Can you and your husband agree to gently and firmly take the child's hands and aid him in pulling down his pants and climbing on the toilet while calmly saying, "Quickly now! Let's not have an accident!" Does this make sense? Don't enable him, but don't get angry at him for something he's not completely trained about.
The other thing I'm recognizing is that your husband may be struggling with self control himself. Frustration with disobedience can be one thing that sends me around the bend before anything else. I have to remind myself to train my kids before I get angry at them. That's where it is so helpful to strategize with a spouse. Look at a small number of misbehaviors and see if you can come to a consistent discipline from both of you which deals with both cause and behavoir. When I have had an opportunity to think out a plan, I do much better about not losing my cool and freaking out. Just my $.02. I hope there's something there you can build on. 
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Martha
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| Posted: Aug 20 2007 at 2:14pm | IP Logged
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Rachel May wrote:
From your second post I see a few things. One is that, yes, your husband has a different approach than you do. He addresses the misbehavoir he dislikes directly without addressing the cause. However, you address the cause wihthout addressing the misbehavior (this from these 2 examples).
Don't enable him, but don't get angry at him for something he's not completely trained about.
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Yeah! What she said! 
Very well put Rachel!
And her solutions to your examples are precisely what I would think to say too.
Also I think both may have a slight self-control issue. (Don't we all? Don't take it mean when someone says this. It is NOT meant as a slap against you. Unfortunatly it's a human state.  ) Self control isn't just about what we do, it can also be seen in what we don't do. For example, saying something is just a stage doesn't excuse not adjusting the behavior. Does that make sense? I know exactly what you're talking about with the potty thing. But it being a developmental normal thing, doesn't make it okay. It means you'll have to use some control to MAKE him understand and get over that developmental issue. Rachel's idea for example. And like Rachel, if you dh KNOWS the boy needs help with this and knows how to help him, then he should be able to calmly deal with the boy.
So I'd sit dh down and have a little heart to heart about what works for you and what works for him and how you can blend that to what will work for the family. 
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SallyT
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| Posted: Aug 20 2007 at 9:49pm | IP Logged
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It might be helpful to come to a consensus about what "disobedience" actually entails, so that discipline doesn't boil down to a matter of just disliking/tolerating certain behaviors. I know that sounds kind of dumb -- who can't tell when a child is being disobedient? But I think there's a world of difference between a child who's being defiantly disobedience, as in deliberately choosing his own will over yours, versus a child who's in a position where for whatever reason he's UNABLE to obey. The latter, to my mind, would seem to be the case with both a young child who's gotten out of control in a tantrum and a toddler who has to go to the potty so badly that he can't think to pull his pants down. That child, inside, might really want to obey and to submit to the parent's will, but lacks the maturity and the control to do it.
In either instance, punishment isn't likely to make much difference in behavioral outcomes -- spanking or other punitive "correction" isn't going to produce any better result the next time than putting the overtired child to bed or helping the toddler to get his pants down. So I don't really see, necessarily, that addressing the cause of the behavior as this mother is doing is failing to address the behavior, or to teach self-control. I'm not sure I see a toddler's losing urinary control under a certain amount of pressure as a misbehavior at all. That to me sounds like an accident, which the child would have regretted and been ashamed of without the added punishment. On the other hand, I absolutely agree that parents must be united when it comes to discipline (at the very least in front of the children), and there have been times when I have submitted to my husband's choice of disciplinary tactic, even when I didn't agree with it. In hindsight, he's usually been right.
But that's why discussion is so important, and it doesn't have to be all the psychobabble blah-blah that you tend to get from lots of parenting literature. What parents really have to agree on is what constitutes punishable misbehavior, and whether nor not there are degrees of something like disobedience. I know that I would be a lot harder on my 9yo now if he refused to do what I asked than I would be on my 3yo. That's not to say that disobedience in little kids is ok, and I certainly don't let my younger children off the hook at all.
At the same time, we do have that phrase, "the age of reason," which would seem to suggest that a younger child does not have the same level of accountability as an older one. If that child is not as accountable before God for his sins as an older child -- even for us adults, think how many factors have to line up before a sin can be considered actually a mortal sin -- then it seems to me that he should not be held to the same level of accountability before his parents for things which he might not have learned to control. That doesn't mean no accountability and total carte blanche for things that he needs to learn to master.
I don't know -- maybe framing the discussion in theological terms of us before God might help move the parameters from guy-discipline vs. softy-intuitive-parents'-magazine-discipline-like-a-girl, where it seems you're currently stuck, to something more productive. Maybe not. But drawing some definite lines might help alleviate purely emotional gut-reaction disciplinary responses, maybe on both sides.
One last thought -- I agree that many parenting books are kind of useless. My husband has no time for them either. Would your husband consent to read some St. John Bosco with you?
I hope some of this is helpful.
Pax,
Sally
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: Aug 20 2007 at 10:32pm | IP Logged
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My 2 cents: I think men in general just want to see results. If you can show him that your gentler methods will yield just as good or better results as his harsher ones, he will be more amenable to them. So if you geniunely want your methods to be successful you need to really start working them (not saying you aren't already, but just redoubling efforts). Anticipate meltdowns and stop them before they begin. Enforce regular naptimes consistently. Anticipate potty issues by reminding ds to go potty frequently, before it gets urgent. Redirect when you see a problem coming ahead. In other words, really do all of those things you know in your heart work. The results will speak for themselves. When dh is not faced with HAVING to discipline his way, it will be a non-issue.
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Katie
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| Posted: Aug 21 2007 at 7:03am | IP Logged
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My dh and I are similar to you and your dh. He really has come on board with my parenting style as time has gone on, and I've learned some tricks from him too (the one word stern voice method to get kids moving quick!!). I feel that young kids rely on us to feed them and put them to bed on time, so if we don't for whatever reason, or life happens, I do cut some slack, but as they get to a point where I can have a conversation with them I do point out the rudeness, bad attitude whatever, and ask them to rephrase politely....while getting some food on the table as quickly as I can!
As far as your example with your two year old, I am definitely in your camp on this one. I'm jealous that yopur two year old is using the potty too. The way I see it, would your dh have handled your toddler differently if he has the verbal skills to say: "Dad, I'm squeezing my behind together so tight to hold it in I don't think I can get my pants down too. Can you help me?" You are probably better at "reading" your ds than he is at this age.
I think this is really different to a child at bedtime refusing to get undressed because he doesn't want to. That would be disobedience and I'd be expecting obedience, though my tendency would be to employ silliness to get the desired action as opposed to a spanking and what-not.
Hope that helps.
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happymama
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| Posted: Aug 21 2007 at 12:32pm | IP Logged
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thank you all, i do wish i was more articulate.
i'm not concerned about how we'll "discipline" older kids, as dh & i agree pretty much completely with the likes of dr. Ray Guarendi.
It's the ages before the "age of reason" where the disagreements lie. Yes, I know we need to be united in front of the kids. Thank you for your suggestions on preventing toddler issues and brainstorming with dh before issues present themselves!
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Mama Moon
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| Posted: Aug 21 2007 at 4:09pm | IP Logged
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I hope this will not confuse things but if you are not able to be united infront of the kids: my dh was brought up with punishments for actions that his parents did not tolerate (without explanations) and this is how he thought he should be withour dds. I cannot punish physically or otherwise. When they were younger I physically prevented them doing something wrong or helped them to correct their action in front of my dh (I had to always be a bit quicker than him!) so he did not need to intervene. We have realised that his levels of tolerance of bad behaviour varies enormously with his mood - whereas mine is more or less the same and fortunately the average of his. Our dds realise that from the same misbehaviour they will get different reactions from each of us but apparently this has not been confusing to them. THey also learn to read what is acceptable at different times from my dh which is very variable. I feel this works for us because our dds see that we are different (as we all are) and have different needs or expectances. What has helped is that (and I think this is thanks to a Montessori approach where the girls are very aware of their actions and respecting others, taking care of environment, serving others, independence) dh has never had to punish them so (although it took many years for him to admit) he agrees that if someone is willing to make the effort to guide the children you can bring up very polite and caring chidren without saying "NO!"
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SeaStar
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I love the 1-2-3 Magic book- it starts with the reminder that children are not little adults. We can fall into a trap of expecting adult behavior from them and treating them accordingly- with sad results for everyone. Most adults don't struggle to remove clothing in time to make it to the bathroom- your dh may have no idea what a feat this is for a child under three.
Maybe some gentle reminders for your dh- even as simple as saying "He's only two years old"- could help.
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Mama Moon
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SeaStar wrote:
children are not little adults
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Martha
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| Posted: Aug 22 2007 at 8:24am | IP Logged
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SeaStar wrote:
| children are not little adults. We can fall into a trap of expecting adult behavior from them and treating them accordingly- |
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I don't treat them like "little adults". But God willing, they will be someday and the sooner they have an understanding for it, the better. Yes, children do things. That's not a reason to "let" them get away with it though. Drives me insane when a kid acts up and someone says, "They're just a kid." as though that excuses the behavior.
Now, I'm NOT saying anyone posting here is in that camp or has bratty kids! Simply saying that I've come across that attitude a LOT.
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Leonie
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My dh and i tend to discipline differently - he is in the military and I am more unschooly! 
I just keave the differences - when dh discplines I don't interfere and he knows that I may discipline differently when he is not there. It hasn't seemed to confuse the kids over time, just made them aware of differences and dealing with different personalities. Good practice for life, imo.
If dh wants me to enforce a rule with which I disagree, I will talk to him about this. We can usually come to some sort of agreement or compromise.
I also agree with both Theresa and Mama Moon - anticipation helps avoid a lot of need for disciplining.
Hope this helps in some way!
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Mari
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Hello! I don't want to critise anyones way of doing things - just add what has worked for us. Dh and I have very different views. He likes ordering around and his standards vary enormously. He also grew up with punishments (quite cruel ones) but he has never used these for our dds (never had to!) I brought dds up with a Montessori approach so they have a very strong inner discipline which makes things easier (although you have to have the energy and be alert all the time when they are young in order to intervene and guide at ALL times). I would always strive to show what correct behaviour is at all ages but know that I need more love and patience and constant attention for the younger ones. I have found that the most important thing is that the child learns what good behaviour is so that it becomes natural for him and so he can use it in all situations even ones he has not come accross before (such as when confronted with other cultures) even if parents are not there to guide. I have seen too many children here in France behave more or less acceptably infront of their parents because they are scared of being spanked or shouted at but when the parents (or teacher) is out of sight, they cannot control themselves. These children are disciplined from external factors, rather than have inner discipline which will be part of them and grow with maturity.
Dh and I have different ideas of what can be expected but we do not see this as a problem. In front of dds we can vary and we just respect the one who requires the most. The idea is that we respect everyone, so we make sure that the most sensitive/needy/etc person is respected in each case. In this way, as we all do, they can learn to adapt their behaviour to different situations, events and different company. I never forget that none of us are perfect and I am sure my dds think I misbehave sometimes! Sometimes they will discreetly point out that maybe I should ahve done something differently. For me it is all about helping each other to see how we can each change to live more harmoniously together.
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Mama Moon
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| Posted: Aug 23 2007 at 5:01am | IP Logged
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Maybe some of you would find this interesting reading from the Montessori forum sectionChildren who are not yet peaceful
Blessings
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Mama Moon
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: dh disciplines so differently!
