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SusanJ
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| Posted: Aug 19 2007 at 8:46pm | IP Logged
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I was just reading the thread on the "made in China" issue and it sounded to me like there is a pretty established opinion on buying Chinese--but I couldn't find a previous thread where this was discussed.
I'm aware, of course, that China is a communist country with horrible human rights violations, but I often feel conflicted about buying Chinese. It seems like there is some argument for supporting these people as human beings. I know, too, that several companies I buy things from use Chinese factories but are very careful that their employees work in excellent conditions.
Mostly, I'm just pretty ignorant about this issue, and I'm hoping that those of you who have given this some thought can offer your take on the situation or point me in the direction of more information. I'd certainly like to be a responsible consumer.
Thanks in advance,
Susan
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MrsKey
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Susan,
I think part of the problem is that in addition to the issues of Communism and the human rights violations are the issues of product safety (China has minimal or no product safety laws in part because of the complete lack of respect for individual lives) which pose serious health risks to the US consumer and more importantly the effect of spending billions of dollars on products made in China on our economy.
I think by insisting on buying the cheapest (often in quality as well as in price) goods we have damaged our own economy.
The United States has become a consumer nation rather than a nation that is able and capable of manufacturing its own goods. That has a huge negative impact on our economy. By buying from Japan and China and insisting on he cheapest prices on goods we have encouraged US companies to stop making things. We have decreased the number of US based jobs and salaries in those US based jobs.
There's my 2 pennies on the topic.
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Carole
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Lara Sauer
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My general attitude each time that I see a "Made in China" label is to simply say a very direct and pointed prayer for the person or persons who were responsible for making the item. I pray for their conversion and that through the conversion of each individual soul that all of China may be converted. I basically use this approach anytime that I have to use something or buy something that I might not otherwise choose to.
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CAgirl4God
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| Posted: Aug 20 2007 at 10:59am | IP Logged
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MrsKey wrote:
I think by insisting on buying the cheapest (often in quality as well as in price) goods we have damaged our own economy.
The United States has become a consumer nation rather than a nation that is able and capable of manufacturing its own goods. That has a huge negative impact on our economy. By buying from Japan and China and insisting on he cheapest prices on goods we have encouraged US companies to stop making things. We have decreased the number of US based jobs and salaries in those US based jobs.
There's my 2 pennies on the topic.
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I totally agree with this!
BUt if you look around it is HARD to find things not made it China....scary...
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stacykay
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I feel horribly for the peoples of China (and Tibet,) and any other people who have to deal with this evil oppression.
I don't think buying things from China will necessarily help those who are doing the work. Only the owners and government will get richer. Their factory conditions are deplorable, with too many getting maimed or killed. I would be interested if anyone has a link to companies that don't operate under these conditions?
From all I have been reading and watching, it seems as though they (the Chinese government) are getting harder on their people and foreigners who dare to question their policies.
Buying things not made in China is nearly impossible. Fortunately  , we aren't in a position to make many purchases  .
I would prefer to "buy American" or even from somewhere that treats their employees well, manufactures a product that doesn't break easily or isn't toxic, and that is in a country that doesn't persecute people of Faith and force abortions on its women.  
Praying for change!
God Bless,
Stacy in rainy and cold MI
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SusanJ
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The Ergo Baby Carrier company has some information on their website about their factory in China.information
And the Babylegs company also claims that they work with a great factory in ChinaBabylegs. You all might be interested to see that their organic and wool products are made in Vermont. I'll definitely keep that in mind in the future.
Thanks for the thoughts, keep them coming!
Susan
I don't quite have the hang of putting links into my messages--sorry about that!
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ALmom
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Ok, in addition to what was mentioned above, I really have no confidence in any quality control no matter who owns the factory, etc. China is a Communist country, you don't just show up at the factory unannounced or unescorted, nor can you wander around poking your nose where they don't want it. Basically factories can easily simply put on a good show during the week you are there. (Actually word we heard was that the whole place ceased operation for the week before visitors and spruced up for them). I know my dh company went on factory visits (locally they considered these boondoggles as the whole plant basically slowed down while they were there and no telling what they were like when they weren't there. I know my dh prayed and gratefully was spared having to make the trip to China). Still part of dh job was to catch the below standard stuff for the company that hired their lab and the most effective efforts at quality control were to go buy the same things off the shelf and test them. Whether intentional or accidental, it always seemed like there was a continual effort to slip slovenly and below standard stuff past the labs. You also have a language problem in the Chinese factories. This one factory had Phillipino engineers and Chinese workers and English had to be the common language but none of them really spoke it as a first language and though some might have been impressive in ability in attempting casual conversation it still was not very good English (unless the Chinese visitors were simply faking it and were spies)- you're talking about critical technical communication here. There are huge problems with technology theft (I'm sure this is not exclusive to China), quality control (and much of this can and is damaging to businesses and dangerous to consumers). Workers in the factory are often from elsewhere and housed in a dorm so they cannot bring their families with them, nor are they allowed to just tour around China.
I wonder if we have abandoned our friends to support our enemies in a communist system. The economy in the Phillipines has been worn down so much (base closings impacted them as well as other things) that their engineers are working in factories in China and leaving their families behind in the Phillipines out of neccessity. You don't see much made in Korea or Taiwan anymore either, though we used to purchase a lot from them. Have we gone mad.
I cannot say directly about what is actually transpiring in Chinese factories but I do know what I have read about factories in the USSR - the 5 year plans and the need to meet the quota - and the abyssmal shortages that resulted in folks trying to stretch the concrete by watering it down just a bit - not enough to be detected on the way out so you meet your quota and don't get in trouble and aren't accused of being a slacker and ending up in jail somewhere - but enough to mean that nothing lasted very long, and bridges would collapse unexpectedly, etc. I have a hard time not wondering if there is something like this going on in China. I know the communism has a twist in China and that they broke from the Soviet communists - but there is something inherrantly ineffective about communist economies. It is hard not to wonder if the tainted toothpaste wasn't a case of shortage (due to communist inefficiency that you can never admit) and this other stuff seemed to be the same thing or looked the same and gee no one will really notice if we slip it in and then we don't get in trouble from ....
Of course I say all this and had huge problems with granting most favored nation status to China and wrote my senator of my concerns, but I admittedly was not very firm in avoiding made in China. I think I got worn down very quickly and just gave up without tyring hard enough - and being tempted by tight budget and lower prices. In the long run the lower prices just mean you throw more away. I basically convinced myself that whatever I did wouldn't help the good folks in China who were being forced to abortions - and it certainly wouldn't have made much difference to China as we don't purchase much outside of books anyways. But a lot of this is probably just trying to justify my own failure to see something through.
Now, I keep thinking back to WWII. In a surprise attack, we were able to recover because of the strength of our factories and how quickly we could gear them for wartime production. I'm not saying we should not have been surprised or how woefully unprepared we were - but we weren't crippled. Now even our military is relying on off the shelf stuff - and how many components in this come or are manufactured elsewhere. We don't hardly even have factories in the U.S. My dh really would like to be involved in designing consumer goods (something he himself might purchase) where he can follow the process from design to production. Now it has been a long, long time since anything like that has been available in the U.S.
Now saying this, I went through a stage where I desperately tried to avoid made in China (it was short lived and extremely frustrating and I found myself frantically putting back every shoe, etc and finding one box made in Nicarauga or something - but then what about child labor and besides both boxes were from the same company - did it really matter? It seemed so impossible that I basically gave up paying attention - but now it has hit home again. I'm not sure what I should do about it or even what the answer is really.
I will say when my dd forgot to grab a microwavable cup before she left to go back to college and we had to do the store run, we left without a cup becasue the ones left were all glazed and made in China. Personally, I have no confidence that those glazes might not be tainted with lead (there certainly has been a lot of that kind of thing) and it wasn't worth the risk. She'll wait till I visit and bring a cup from home. Personally, I'm a bit embarrassed that it has taken the more direct threat of personal harm to get me back to thinking about this issue again. I also wonder about - well what about Wal-Mart and ... We could end up needing to boycott the world practically.
I've also decided that my next Montessori purchase - first question I ask is where is your factory. If it is in China, it is not worth the hassle for me (and it doesn't matter whether you own the factory or you don't). Of course, I may have to pay more - but this year I have had to return over 50% of my orders and a few things I've accepted and am living with stuff in less than desired condition. There are very, very few things that came to my house in good condition to start with. All the time I spent calling companies, repackaging, mailing, waiting for replacements is time I could have been spending actually with the material or planning my year. I have a funny feeling that all these companies and their quality shifts from year to year depending on where the factory is located and who has most recently gotten fed up with the Chinese factories and their poor quality.
Janet
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guitarnan
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My husband got our family onto the "anywhere but China" path because of all the factors Janet mentioned. His biggest issues were the low wages and totally unsafe working conditions. (We actually watched a TV documentary on Nokia cell phone manufacturing in China...the young ladies have to live in dorms, eat food in the company cafeteria, which they said was unappetizing, and they can't date or get married. This was ON the film; wonder what wasn't allowed to be shown?)
My issue, as I've said elswhere, is forced abortion and sterilization. Every time I look at a silk shirt, all I see is some mommy being dragged off to the clinic, and it breaks my heart.
I know that the Chinese people are just like us. They love their families, want to work hard and provide for their children, and live in a safe world. Spending my money on their products won't give them those things. (If I thought it would, I'd buy them in the hope that prosperity would lead to a freer, better China.)
My dd's godparents just returned from 7 years in South Korea. They told us that American-style safety standards don't exist anywhere in Asia. It's up to our country to set standards and inspect incoming goods, if we want to avoid lead in paint, food contamination, etc. Now that this issue is in the news, it's a good time to remind legislators (conveniently home on vacation) of our thoughts.
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SusanJ
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Thanks Janet and Nancy.
Dh and I were talking about this a bit more. It does seem like you could argue that staying economically involved in China is a good. The more companies own factories in China, the more American businessmen will be traveling to China and the more we'll all see about what is going on. There are so many ways that our two countries are different--perhaps business relationships are the best way to maintain communication. Simply boycotting Chinese made products seems a bit like sanctions. Sanctions have been condemned by the Vatican because they don't work and the people just suffer more. What do you think? We're honestly trying to figure this out.
The quality issue is one I completely understand. I always want to get the best quality product required (with our family's economic situation in mind). But this seems like a separate issue. Quality is quality, regardless of who makes it.
Susan
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guitarnan
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I might be splitting hairs, but it seems to me that sanctions are imposed by governments, to protest the behavior of other governments. Boycotts are organized by people who want to protest the behavior of other people or organizations (as in the civil rights bus boycotts). I feel compelled to withdraw my support for China's oppressive policies in the only way available to me, which is keeping my hard-earned dollars out of their business bank accounts.
The Chinese government has suppressed religious expression for decades. In its place, communism was to be the new "religion", but now that's gone by the wayside. What's left is a moral vacuum. There are many people in China who do practice their faith, but at a cost. The vast majority of political and business leaders in China grew up in this moral vacuum, and occasional business-related contact with foreigners probably isn't going to influence their behavior. They operate in a different moral framework. People are far more expendable in China, from the official point of view, than they are here.
Case in point: 172 miners trapped by a flood. The mining company and the government are silent for four straight days about the issue. Family members turn violent in frustration. They are told to go home and avoid the press. Contrast this with our six lost coal miners. Two solid weeks of rescue efforts...in dangerous conditions...families are not only briefed but taken into the mine to see the rescue efforts in progress. They talk with the media.
Even knowing that world media attention is focused on their situation, Chinese officials and mining company executives seemingly don't care. In China, 13 coal miners die every day.
The Chinese government and business owners there are never going to feel the impact of my little personal boycott. Women will still be sterilized and will still seek abortions. I know this. I am compelled, nonetheless, to do the best I can to spend my money elsewhere.
(I hope this doesn't sound too soapboxy. It's not meant to be...it's a very emotional topic for me.)
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StephanieA
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My brother-in-law worked as an engineer superintendent in China for 2 years. The stories I could tell. Sigh.
Basically, the people there are terribly nice, but the money is NOT cycled down to them. Businesses and the government (who owns so many of the business) make the money. The "upper crust" live well. The rest work long hours with little incentive to do better. He counted the hours to the day when he could return to the US.
We avoid being "made from China" as much as humanly possible.
Stephanie
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graciefaith
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MrsKey wrote:
I think by insisting on buying the cheapest (often in quality as well as in price) goods we have damaged our own economy.
The United States has become a consumer nation rather than a nation that is able and capable of manufacturing its own goods. That has a huge negative impact on our economy. By buying from Japan and China and insisting on he cheapest prices on goods we have encouraged US companies to stop making things. We have decreased the number of US based jobs and salaries in those US based jobs.
There's my 2 pennies on the topic.
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I dont know too much about this but dh does and he totally agrees with this.
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LucyP
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I try to avoid buying too much "cheap stuff" anyway, but especially we struggled each time we set up our made in china nativity crib. We had two that were made in china, and "recycled" them both, because I just had such a strong reaction to sitting and looking at them and knowing that the church is not free there and yet the communists will make the tat to sell to gulliable Christians in the western democracies. So we bought the holy family carved by Christians in the holy land - we can't afford more figures, but I would rather just have that and feel peace than the elaborate sets that made me feel ill.
To be honest, it is impossible not to buy chinese things for me, because of budget constraints, but I try to limit it - and to pray for the persecuted church, of course.
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Looking for "made in China" thoughts
