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mom2mpr
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 10:55am | IP Logged
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How do you deal with a negative 4 year old? She is starting to really affect the home and ds, who has been pretty patient up until now. She does not want to be read too(or do anything we suggest)--and now because of the stress it causes, ds doesn't want to either. Getting her to just get ready for the day is a struggle. Our routines and pegs have totally gone out the window--I am doing damage control all day. I am getting worried about schooling in the fall. Ds(9) is so fun to "school" and he gets into it and enjoys learning with me. She wants to be so different and is totally opposite of the rest of us. It adds so much stress to homeschooling right now.
I am trying to "fill her up" this week while ds is at day camp. It doesn't seem to be working  Yesterday we spent 4 hours at the Childrens Museum together and had a nice time. We got home and I needed her to play while I got dinner together and it was a total tantrum! I invited her to help. Nope.
I am exhausted, frustrated, worried, concerned there is more going on than I can see.....I toy with preschool but she is so shy and doesn't express her needs well to others. Also, it would be a hassle-we are 30 minutes one way to a preschool-blech. I toy with sending ds to school--but he is doing so well at home and thriving. I feel like a homeschool mom failure since this 4 year old is so out of control! Also, we have so much going on with visitors and travel this summer. I know this impacts her some--but we can't cancel it-yet, she embarrasses me.
I am having trouble finding her interests and passions--though she will start dance class in the fall. She has been wanting to do that. She is always "bored" and has a really bad attitude and tone of voice. My Mom who visited last week couldn't believe how she spoke to me. This child would live in time out if I corrected everything she does wrong in a day from tone of voice, not using her words, hitting and jumping on the dog, pestering her brother constantly, etc. Whew.
Anyhow, I am sure this is a stage and she will grow through it--I do remember ds being a little "fresh" at 4--but it was much easier.
Tell me about your 4 year old girl  Make me feel better (?) 
Anne
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Anne McD
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 4:20pm | IP Logged
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Funny, I was going to ask a similar question about my "angry little man." He's also four, and when he's not cupping my face in his hands saying, "I love you mommy, I'm going to give you eight, twenty thousand sixty four flowers", and sometimes delivering on that promise with dandelions, he's yelling. At me, at everyone, and if I dare to correct him, I get the angry, wrinkled up nose look. He yells at his little sister when she does anything to him (like breathe his air), he breaks into an ear piercing scream when his older brother wrongs him, and if I try to dicipline him on something, I get an impassioned, "you don't know anything, you stupid!" I've tried everything at this point, and for some time-- not yelling back, time outs, a swat on the rear end for calling me names. . . . I'm at my wits end with this one. Is this something they grow out of?
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Barbara C.
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 4:50pm | IP Logged
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Your daughter sounds a lot like my older one who is also four (although not too far from five). You may have a "spirited" child on your hands, and I really recommend reading "Raising your Spirited Child" by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka.
A spirited child is usually extremely intense and often very dramatic. They can be extremely sensitive to too much light, sound, or change in their routine or environment. They often have a low boredom threshold and want lots of attention. The book is a good place to start to figure out if your child has a "spirited" temperament and offers some preventative measures.
I don't claim to be an expert, but here are a few things that have worked for me. I've set a timer and if she went through her routine within the set time she got to put a sticker on a chart. That seemed to help some with getting dressed issues. If she refused to get dressed in the morning, she didn't leave her room until she did. If she refused to get ready for bed at night then she didn't get a bedtime story.
I read another book (I can't remember the name) where the author talked about how even a "spirited" child or an ADHD child still basically needs the same discipline as any other. And he said that any child that asks for more attention has had too much already. I have found this to be true. He suggests two half-hour periods of "Mommy time" a day, and otherwise the child should be helping around the house or occupying itself. I often make "Mommy time" school time where we work in a work book or do a jigsaw puzzle or play a board or computer game together.
He also suggested sending kids to their room, all day if necessary until they learn correct behavior. I started focusing on two or three main problems, like hitting out of anger, and started sending her to her room for fifteen minutes. I didn't care if she cried the whole time or got distracted by toys or both. It gave me a chance to calm down before I went to talk to her about it. She also wasn't allowed to leave until she calmed down and apologized. If she did it again, she immediately went back up.
I also tried to keep the rules simple:
1. No jumping off the furniture or over your sister.
2. No tumbling off the furniture or over your sister.
3. No hurting (hitting, kicking, pinching, biting).
4. Obey what Mommy and Daddy tell you.
We still have a lot of attitude problems. Some of it I am working on. Some of it is because of her dramatic personality. If I do something that makes her happy, I'm "the best mommy in the whole wide world". If I enforce the rules or don't give her what she wants, "I'm the worst mommy in the whole wide world."
And I don't know if television is allowed in your house, but I try to limit my older daughters television for the younger one's nap time. Otherwise she can not stay away while I get the little one to sleep. The younger one often gets a little television time while the older one has mommy time. So maybe that will give you some relief while you homeschool your son. And maybe you should keep your set "school date" with your son and give her the option of working quietly at the table with you or going to her room until you are finished.
I hope this helps some. And I completely understand. I often feel overwhelmed, too. And don't forget to pray and imagine how all of her qualities that drive you crazy now may be positively channeled for her later. I don't want to break my daughter's "spirit"; I just want to reign it in.
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missionfamily
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 5:08pm | IP Logged
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No advice here, but definite commiseration. Today I was reading Holt Twins in the car while dh drove us to a bday party and a Children's Bible came flying at my head. When I turned around to discipline him ds yelled, "I hate that story!" Sort of ruined the mood for the rest of us...and it's always that way!
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mom2mpr
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 5:33pm | IP Logged
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missionfamily wrote:
| No advice here, but definite commiseration. Today I was reading Holt Twins in the car while dh drove us to a bday party and a Children's Bible came flying at my head. When I turned around to discipline him ds yelled, "I hate that story!" Sort of ruined the mood for the rest of us...and it's always that way! |
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Oh you ladies can make me feel soooooo much better. "Big baby"(a doll) ended up in time out today because she flew through the car-at dd's brother. And after that, a few rights and lefts at poor brother-and I pulled the car over yet again..... It was only a 5 minute drive too
Anne
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Dawnie
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 5:52pm | IP Logged
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Anne,
My 8yod is like your 4yod, and she's been like that pretty much since she was 3.
I have had much more success recently with giving my daughter a goal to strive for, and rewards for reaching those goals, rather than trying to punish the bad behavior out of her.
We made a chart for my daughter that had 4 items on it--these were her behaviors that bothered me the most: no trying to hurt or spitting; no threatening to hurt; no name calling; and no slamming doors or throwing things. At the end of the day, she is given a counting chip for each item on her chart that she accomplished. Each chip is worth 5 min. of computer time. She can play games on the computer, or she can save her chips and watch a movie. This method has been VERY effective. Once we started doing this, I went from being hit, kicked, spit on, and called names nearly every day, to those things happening only once or twice a week. Now, there are still consequences for those behaviors, but we have made a lot more progress in a short amount of time with the chart.
I also give each of the children a quarter each evening for helping with the chores. The rule is, if you help, you get a quarter, if you don't help, you don't get a quarter. Anyone who choses to sit on her bum will be poor!
I have also found that my oldest daughter is much more sensitive to MY emotional state than my other children. If I am irritable, stressed, anxious, or preoccupied, and I respond to her harshly, it's like throwing fuel on a fire. If I am able to stay calm, speak to dd in a loving and calm way, even if her behavior is horrible, she will calm down faster and with less escalation.
Hope that helps...I know I have felt tested BEYOND my limits MANY times with my oldest daughter!
Dawn
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jugglingpaynes
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 6:26pm | IP Logged
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Hi Anne,
For a second there I was sure you were talking about my now 5 y.o. young lady! One time she was making me so crazy I yelled, "You are not the queen of our family!" She replied, "Then who is?"
I have to say, when I went through this the third time I had trouble remembering what it was like with my older daughter and son. (Memory loss can be a blessing at times!)I do remember telling my hubby about my oldest, "I'm not ready to deal with teen attitude!" So there you are. It does get better, and it does take patience and you do get tested about a thousand times a day, but if my older two are any example it is well worth the effort.
BTW, and this is only my humble opinion based on my experience, I dealt with more attitude from my girls. My son was more the passive aggressive type. 
Peace and Laughter,
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mom2mpr
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 7:26pm | IP Logged
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jugglingpaynes wrote:
BTW, and this is only my humble opinion based on my experience, I dealt with more attitude from my girls. My son was more the passive aggressive type.
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My ds, while tough, was much easier at this age. My dear aunt who had 5 children stated her sons(3 of them) were much easier than her daughters. I often wonder if it is a boy thing-but others here have had boys with the same issues...oh well, just thoughts...off to continue to deal..
Anne
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folklaur
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 7:49pm | IP Logged
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With my own children, I wouldn't personally allow hitting (her brother, the dog) at all. Ever.
Or throwing things. People could get really, really hurt.
Are you consistent with consequences? If she hits, "this" is the consequence? But you have follow through every time. Eventually she will get it, but not if you threaten, cajole, and only sometime follow through. Exhausting for mom, I know. But if it was someone else and not her brother she was hitting or throwing something at, would your reaction to her behavior be different? (and - I hate to say this, I really do, but, if I was the other Mom whose child she hit or threw something at, I would immediatly be looking to see what you, as her Mother, were going to do about it...Does that sound horrible? I don't mean it to. But it is the truth... 
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mom2mpr
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 9:17pm | IP Logged
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cactus mouse wrote:
With my own children, I wouldn't personally allow hitting (her brother, the dog) at all. Ever.
Or throwing things. People could get really, really hurt.
Are you consistent with consequences? If she hits, "this" is the consequence? But you have follow through every time. Eventually she will get it, but not if you threaten, cajole, and only sometime follow through. Exhausting for mom, I know. But if it was someone else and not her brother she was hitting or throwing something at, would your reaction to her behavior be different? (and - I hate to say this, I really do, but, if I was the other Mom whose child she hit or threw something at, I would immediatly be looking to see what you, as her Mother, were going to do about it...Does that sound horrible? I don't mean it to. But it is the truth...
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She is very mild mannered and quiet/shy in public and while playing at friends' homes. I cannot imagine her hitting in those situations and she never has.
Most of her acting out is at home.
I am having trouble with consequences as she will not stay in her room or time out. I do not spank(yet). Taking away privileges is hard as we don't have many around here-little TV, rare desserts with meals, etc. She just doesn't care and/or refuses to "get it." I have been toying with more positive reinforcement for NOT hitting/throwing/etc, when I think she might have. Nothing seems to work with her and I am praying it ends soon and she outgrows this.
Pulling the car over on the side of the road actually has a little impact Her big wide eyes when I get out of the drivers seat and open her door to have a big talk with her, usually makes some impression. Could work into a wrong impression and fun power thing for her after a few times though-sigh.
She is really giving me a run for my money and poor ds has to suffer through and wait for me all day while I try to correct and work with her. It has really taken its toll on our relationship and theirs. It is sad to me. I hope it works itself out soon.
Any ideas of consequences would be appreciated. Time out just isn't working and the other options are so, so time consuming. For example, she had a tantrum all the way home from a playdate today. A 5 minute drive. It continued in the house and she was fussing and kicking and hitting at me. I held her, when I thought she might hear me I spoke to her, she eventually relaxed and we read a book and it was over--but it seemed to take a long time. Ds was at camp so I had the time. But, the eye contact, talking her through, letting her know I loved her, and yes, it was hard to leave her freinds house, she must have had such a good time, etc. Whew. Next tantrum(for bedtime) she seemed to want that. I pulled her in the rocking chair with me at the top of the stairs and it was a shorter time. Maybe I am on to something--but it is so counter to what I think I should do. I would rather give her that attention for positive behavior, you know? I try when she is good and she will balk.
I do not allow hitting and throwing, jumping on the dog, etc. to go by without at least verbal response that it is not right. I am trying consequences but they don't appear to work. If we are in public I would apologize to the people involved and make sure they were OK, remove her from the area and talk to her.We would probably end up leaving-much to ds's chagrin. But this has never happened and I wouldn't expect it too. She would not go and apologize for sure--too shy.
Anyhow, thank you all for your ideas and stories and help. Really, I appreciate all and any suggestions. I want things to get better so we all can live peacefully and enjoy each other again.
Anne
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jugglingpaynes
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 10:22pm | IP Logged
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I think you need to be aware of all the factors involved in a tantrum moment. I wrote this about one of my daughter's tantrums back in January. What I learned from this particular incident is that if I didn't make sure I fed my daughter well before her dance class, I would almost certainly be dealing with a tantrum when I picked her up at the end of class. And I'm talking give her a piece of fruit or granola bar that she finishes as she's walking through the door of the dance studio. I realized that she needed the extra calories because she would really work hard the entire class, use up all her energy, and then melt down at the littlest thing (e.g.-she didn't get to lead, she didn't get to pick a sticker she liked).
Which brings up another point. The younger kids sometimes do these things because it's a way of having some control when usually they have no control. If you have older sibs and you want attention, negative attention is better than nothing. I know, we all feel we give them equal attention, or we are giving more attention to the one causing the problems, but they don't always see it that way. You could try using a timer to give uninterrupted mom time to the youngest child. An hour, half an hour, even 15 minutes with the condition that when the timer rings, you need to do other things. If she enjoys this, you can use it as a positive reinforcement. Point out something she did well (I really appreciated that you waited your turn)and use the mommy time as a reward. Rewarding good behavior has really helped around here. I wouldn't tell my daughter I would do something if..., instead I would surprise her occasionally when I recognized that she was trying to behave. We are still in the process and we backslide at times, but things are improving.
I'm sorry this is so long. I so understand your situation and I hope things get better. I know it's hard, but as long as she knows that the tantrums won't help her get her way, she'll eventually find other ways to communicate. I think you are doing just fine.
Peace and Laughter (because we need it for the tantrums)
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Dawnie
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| Posted: July 11 2007 at 11:30pm | IP Logged
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Thoughts on consequences:
time-out: generally, the rule is one minute in time-out for every year of age...so a 4yo would get a 4 min. time-out, a 5yo, 5 min. and so on. However, for severe offenses (like hitting a parent, calling a parent names) I add more time. I found the book1, 2, 3 Magic very helpful for outlining how to deal w/ common time-out problems (like a dc who won't stay in her room--you hold the door closed, if you have to). I've also had lots of problems with getting my dd to stay in time-out. When we first started doing the 1, 2, 3 Magic, I had to carry her to her room kicking and screaming every time and hold the door closed the entire time. But after a month, she would stay in her room without me holding the door closed. So, it took time and persistence on my part, but we did make progress.
loss of privileges: okay, I'm still working on this one, but I have found that taking away my dd computer time chips is an effective alternative to time-out. For example, at bedtime or quiet time, it doesn't make sense to put her in time out, so she loses a computer chip (worth 5 min. of computer time) instead. One mom told me that early on, she learned that taking away privileges was easier to control than time-out. She thought that for some children, time-out was just an opportunity to play a fun game of tug-o-war with Mom. With privileges, the parent has a high degree of control--we can take favorite toys away, unplug the TV or computer (or put child-proof latches on the cabinet), take away bikes or other outside toys, or revoke outside playtime altogether. With time-out, you do have to enforce the punishment THE ENTIRE TIME. My younger children will go to time-out and stay there, for the most part. Sometimes my oldest dd does, and sometimes she doesn't--sometimes I think it is a "fun game of tug-o-war" for her. That's why my dh and I are working on a plan that's based more on privileges than time-out for her. However, the 1, 2, 3 Magic book was a great place to start for us and got us both on the same page for discipline issues.
I could write much more...but dh is home 
hth
Dawn
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folklaur
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| Posted: July 12 2007 at 12:16am | IP Logged
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Oh, oh, I second the recommendation for 1,2,3 Magic. I meant to put that in my post but forgot!
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Topic: Negative 4 year old
