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MommyD
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I am not trying to start issues with this question. I'm just trying to understand our differences.
Before I found all of these wonderful Catholic blogs for support, I visited Christian homeschooling blogs. Without exception, at one point or another they all discussed spanking and were quite proud of the fact that they did spank their children. I've never seen this on any of the Catholic blogs. I'm wondering if anyone knows anything about the theological differences that would make this so.
Melissa
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juststartn
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Well, I don't know why the differences between Protesters and Catholics, but I will say I spank mine when they need it (which is not that often)...
But then again, I'm a convert--might be a hold over from my days in the 'other camp'..lol 
There are also a good number of protesters who follow the "To Train Up a Child" line of thinking (even if they don't agree with the theology). Or even the milder Dr Dobson....
Just something to consider there. Alot of those blogs/message boards are run by folks who tend towards that mindset anyway, it seems to me (just from my experiences there)....at least, on the ones I visited, at least.
My $.02
Rachel
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Essy
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I don't know...but my parents were born and raised Catholic and didn't hold back on the spanking. I refuse to do it now because of knowing personally its effects...not so much because of religious views.
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florasita
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Yes I think you will find the spanking debate in any religion . It is not a protstant / catholic issue .
Again its a choice a way in which people choose to discipline . Some states , provinces , countries have made it illegal . So I guess people who have made the choice to spank feel upset they are being told they are doing something harmful etc.
I personally did used to spank .
For me I only did it out of anger . I was up set .It was abuse . Yes takes alot to admit when we made a wrong choice .
When I came to understand I personally would never spank someone if I was not angry . I just couldn't .In my mind I cannot rationaliize putting pain on someone if I am not angry it does not make any sense to me now .
It is hitting someone for doing something I consider wrong . How can be in a peaceful state and hit someone .
God would never hit me never .He would never ask me to hit my child . never .
This is only in my own personal life . I look to God as my parent and he would never do that never abuse me or harm me . He tells me no and can be firm but inflict pain . Never .
I cannot speak for others because it is such a personal issue . I just don't agree with using pain to teach a lesson .Some people already have much pain already why inflict more .
I don't think me being a Catholic is what gave me this outlook though . I knew long ago me spanking the kids was not good and had a negative effect on them . I turned to God to show me where to go with it . Anyone can do that catholic , hindu , muslim etc. So religious yes maybe but not exclusive to being catholic .
Much Lov , Rox
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JodieLyn
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Because Protestants choose to believe the Bible is literal, all the time, except where they don't  , so where it says "he who spares the rod, spoils the child".. they see the rod as an actual stick used upon the child, not a less literal definition of the rod as a sign of authority.. which can then make that mean.. he who spares discipline, spoils the child.. and discipline can come in many forms.. much has to do with the child and what works imo
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momwats8
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My dh and I were both spanked and we spank.
There are three things our kids get spanked for - disrespect, direct disobedience, and lying.
They know these are the rules and they get three swats on the bottom after being told why they are being spanked. Then they have to say they are sorry and we forgive them.
there are times when I have to stop and take a step back before I spank them though because i am angry. I am not perfect but it has worked in our home along with time outs etc.
I think it is just an age old debate. i never found it was a difference with being Prostestant or Catholic. Lots of Catholics I know spank.
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ShawnaB
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JodieLyn wrote:
| so where it says "he who spares the rod, spoils the child".. they see the rod as an actual stick used upon the child, not a less literal definition of the rod as a sign of authority.. which can then make that mean.. he who spares discipline, spoils the child.. and discipline can come in many forms.. much has to do with the child and what works imo |
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I am not Catholic, and I can tell you that the conversation about to spank or not to spank, and whether there is a Biblical mandate or not, is one that continues between many non-Catholic Christians. There is not a concensus. Personally, I tend to agree with you, Jodie, as there is certainly a Biblical mandate to discipline, but the method is not mandated.
A book I love, writen by a non-Catholic is Heartfelt Discipline written by Clay Clarkson, husband of Sally Clarkson, and co-author of Educating the Wholehearted Child. He challenges the literal notion of the rod in this book, and it is a wonderful look at compassionate discipline. There are many non-Catholic Christians who do not embrace the "we're proud to be spanking" camp. And while I don't defend those who make spanking such a central issue to good parenting, I also agree that some of this sentiment may come in response to governmental oversite and legislation with regard to parenting.
I am interested to know, does the Catholic Church have anything to say on the issue of spanking specifically?
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Angie Mc
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MommyD wrote:
| I'm wondering if anyone knows anything about the theological differences that would make this so. |
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I don't know if my answer is purely theological, but I do think the difference is that Catholics have an explicit right and responsibility to make the decision about whether to spank or not based not only on Sacred Scripture but also on Sacred Tradition and more.
For example, we are encouraged to learn from and be inspired by the communion of saints. Here's an example of how a mother (our own Elizabeth) feels called not to spank based, in part, on the example of St. John Bosco. Personally, I have been greatly inspired by the example and sentiments of St. Gianna Molla as expressed by her husband... "The type of education Gianna proposed to me was the one she grew up with: education by influence. She would say: 'I can't conceive of a mother slapping a child. We ought to manage to educate them by persuasion and above all educate them from the earliest years, to see a gift of God in everything and to respect this gift."
ShawnaB wrote:
I am interested to know, does the Catholic Church have anything to say on the issue of spanking specifically? |
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I don't believe so, but please correct me if I'm wrong. The decision to spank or not may fall into a similar catagory for Catholics as discerning if a particular war is just or not. Well-informed Catholics can come to different conclusions based on their understanding of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition/Catholic teaching as well as their social conditions, temperaments, personal experience, and so forth. Here's an example of a well-informed Catholic who chose to spank and one who chose not to spank.
Love,
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Mary G
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Definitely NOT a Protestant/Catholic issue (which is why I changed the subject wording). There are some very vocal Catholics who advocate spanking as a form of discipline -- Steve Woods, Ray Guarendi come immediately to mind. It's just a difference in parental philosophy. Some do, some don't.
I think the main difference is that Protestant homeschooling books, especially those heavy on discipline and good/bad habits, tend to overtly recommend "don't spare the rod" while Catholic homeschooling books encourage a more pro-active, good-habits encouraged stance.
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Gregory Popcak addresses this in the beginning of his book "Parenting with Grace". But, I don't have it here to refer to.
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Bridget
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Dr. Guarendi mentioned in one of his talks that, while the majority of parents in strong, stable families do spank, there were enough that didn't to lead him to believe spanking isn't the main issue. Consistently holding the family to high standards of behavior seemed to be the more important key. But he does support spanking.
One of the best things about Dr. Ray, is that he is dealing with a wide range of genetics and temperaments in his own family.
Steve Wood, in his book, Legacy: A Father's Handbook For Raising Godly Children, makes a case for spanking, using pre and post Vatican II writings and the Bible. He also explains HOW to use spanking as an effective tool. This is the best book on parenting I have read. Even if your not comfortable with spanking, he has so much good sense and wisdom in all the areas of parenting that he addresses.
Both of these men are fabulous resources. They are solid Catholics, they have large families and older children. They know what they're talking about from experience.
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Willa
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Quote:
I think the main difference is that Protestant homeschooling books, especially those heavy on discipline and good/bad habits, tend to overtly recommend "don't spare the rod" while Catholic homeschooling books encourage a more pro-active, good-habits encouraged stance. |
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I think this is true, but I've noticed there are two general branches of Protestant teachings. One is "don't spare the rod" while another branch is more like the general Catholic one.... where the emphasis is on formation.
Charlotte Mason, who was an Anglican, didn't exclude spanking categorically, but she thought it ought to be a small part at most of a general discipling method:
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This thought of discipline, for example, is one of the large comprehensive ideas which must inform and direct the life, rather than be gathered up into a rule, easy to remember and easy to apply, now and then. If Tommy is naughty, whip him and send him to bed––is a ready-reckoner kind of rule, handy to have about one, and is the sort of thing which many people mean by discipline. Now we would not say that punishment is never to be used, very much otherwise. Neither would we say that physic is never to be taken. But punishment, like physic, is a casualty only of occasional occurrence at the worst, and punishment and physic alike are reduced to a minimum in proportion as we secure healthy conditions of body and mind. |
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She goes on to say:
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| Our contention is twofold: (a), that the need for punishment is mostly preventable; and (b), that the fear of punishment is hardly ever so strong a motive as the delight of the particular wrongdoing in view. |
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She is not JUST talking about physical punishment but about punishment in general. What she says reminds me of John Bosco's teachings on Preventive Discipline
The well known Protestant Elisabeth Elliot's great grandfather wrote a book called Hints on Child Training which discourages habitual spanking as a primary training tool. His book has had a lot of influence in some Protestant circles as you can see from the reviews.
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Dawnie
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Very interesting discussion...I'm on the fence about spanking, but I'm learning a lot in this discussion. Please keep it up!
Dawn
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I lasted two years without spanking, and once I allowed myself to do it once (he had run out into the street after having just been punished with a time out for the same thing and warned that he would be spanked if he did it again), it became so easy to do it as the default when I get angry. I would like to stop, or at least have very clearly defined limits for when it is appropriate and not appropriate. Watching this thread with interest.
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Michaela
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Philothea wrote:
| it became so easy to do it as the default when I get angry. I would like to stop, or at least have very clearly defined limits for when it is appropriate and not appropriate. Watching this thread with interest. |
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A great topic to expand on or start a new thread on!
(No time to organize my thoughts. I may add something later....focusing on today's baptisms right now.)
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florasita
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I would not base sanking on the oinions on what a doctor says or the family you might think appears to be running smoothly and well is doing .
You , dh & children are your own unit .You can only know via God .
We must always turn to God first and if properly discrening are led to a certain book etc. in regards to the topic we may find insight but we must really becareful we are not trying to follow a norm or what others are doing etc.
As I said for us personally it was a form of abuse so we will not spank . I can say having been a victim of abuse it is much easier to heal from being a victim then admiting and healing from being an abuser .
In the long term though it heals Everyones relationships with God that is the ultimate goal to be in union with Him .Spanking definately in my case ut barriors up between God and myself .
Gotta run make lunch for this hungry bunch
Much Lov , Rox
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Anne McD
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I'm very intersted in some ideas from "former spankers" as to how you handle situations now. I went from never spanking to spanking way too much, to none again, and its come up again recently. As some women have pointed out, and is true in my case, it happens when I'm mad. I've made the joke before that I came to the realization that when it comes to discipline, it's not personal, its businsess. Yes, it is personal, these are my children I'm talking about, but what I mean is that I take it personally when my children disobey me. However, when I take my emotions out of the equation and look at the facts-- you did x and the consequence is y-- it seems like it should work better. Is this right?
Then there's the whole "pick your battles" thing. Consistency is key, right? Many people talk about the importance of first time obedience all the time, but I feel like I'm a drill sergent when I'm insisting that my dc follow every command b/c I commanded it.
Has anyone figured out what is gentle, but firm, and works??
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ShawnaB
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Well, I'll share a bit about my journey through the choice to spank or not, and how it works in our home right now.
Before my first child was born, I was given and read some of those kind of books that were mentioned in the opening post of this thread...the kind of discipline books that taught that spanking was somehow "God's" way of disciplining children, and that those parents who rejected this Biblical means of discipline were sentencing their children to lives of rebellion.
Well, I don't mean to stir up controversy, but for me, I found these ideas to be rubish...both from a Biblical standpoint as well as a common sense standpoint. That being said, we have not tossed out spanking as a means of discipline altogether, but it is used very sparingly.
Here is how it looks in our family. At some point, usually usually around age 2, our children began to show obviously defiance. Now, I am not talking about the Toddler who grabs for my coffee coffee cup, even though I've told him the day before, and the day before that that this is not OK. Toddlers lack impulse control and are curious...they are going to grab the coffee cup. When the toddler reaches for my coffee cup, I tell him "no, no" and move it out of his reach, and try to redirect him. Many times, said Toddler moves on. However, if Toddler begins tantruming, throwing his head back and bucking, and then begins to move the dining chair, determined to reach the coffee cup anyway, I will firmly tell him, "No. You may not have the coffee cup" and attempt to redirect again. If the toddler once again tantrums, refuses to be redirected, and continues in the relentless pursuit of the cup, I will warn "No. I will spank if you climb the table." There are no surprise spankings in our home. If Toddler looks at me and continues to climb, a firm swat on the bottom will follow.
I believe that direct defiance, (and I tend to extend a lot of grace on what I consider to be direct defiance), must be addressed. With young children, finding a swift and enforcible consequence can be challenging. Putting a defiant and tantruming toddler in "time out" can often result in a huge power struggle because they won't stay in time-out, and inevitably it ends with a spank anyway. Putting them in their crib (if you have one and they are not able to climb out)can be a good alternative to a swat, but not always practical.
One caveat, though, is that obviously, some children do not respond to spanking...it makes them madder and they will basically say "bring it on mom...how hard are you going to spank me, because whatever you can dish out, I'm tougher than that." I have a nephew who falls into this category, and for him, spanking is not effective and other methods have had to be used. So far, my children have always responded very quickly to a spank, but I know this is not always the case.
I have to say, though, that our 2 older children, ages 4.5 and almost 7, are almost NEVER spanked. In fact, I cannot remember the last time. Dh and I are fairly confident that our yes means yes and no means no, and our kids seem to believe it. We don't see too much of that direct defiance anymore, especially from our oldest, and we are discplining more for attitudes and habits now. Now, they old enough for more sophisticated discipline (teaching) when necessary, like logical consequences of their actions, appealing to the conscience, loss of priviledges, etc., which are much more effective and beneficial. So in our home, the occasional spank for outright defiance, it mostly reserved for the older Toddler/younger Preschool ages.
With spanking, I believe its very important to have a plan, and to not respond with a spank out of emotion, ever. For some personalities, this may not be a reality, and in that case, I think one must considering omitting spanking from the discipline tool box. In my opinion, its better to let defiant behavior go than to give a spank when I'm hot and bother!
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doris
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Ok, this is a massive subject and I'm just jumping in in the middle.
I was smacked as a child and was firmly of the opinion 'it never did me any harm'. That really changed once I had children of my own.
I don't smack my dc for two main reasons -- first, that it would be so much more about my anger than about any just punishment, and secondly, that I really don't see how I can teach my kids not to hit each other if I'm saying that *I* solve things by violence.
I'm not attacking those who use smacking in their own family, just saying how it feels in ours. I was also really struck by the Popcak book, in particular the anecdote he relates about research into what happened in pre-war Germany. Apparently this research looked into why some Germans helped the Jews, and others didn't. There was a strong correlation between being raised in an authoritarian style including physical punishment, and being a Nazi supporter. The converse was also true. Those who had been raised in a more 'liberal' household were more likely to help the Jews.
I don't have the book in front of me so that may not be entirely accurate, and nor do I suggest that all children who have been smacked will grow up to be Nazis! But it's interesting food for thought.
Now, as to how I get my children to do as I want, well...
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organiclilac
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Anne McD wrote:
| I'm very intersted in some ideas from "former spankers" as to how you handle situations now... Has anyone figured out what is gentle, but firm, and works?? |
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When I was pregnant, I planned to spank. Then I read the Sears, and changed my mind. Reading Popcak reaffirmed that decision even more. We pretty much did their discipline method for the first few years. I was still not happy with all the time-outs, though, so when "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline" by Becky Bailey was suggested on a Catholic parenting list, I was very interested. It is by far the best approach I have found. Part of her philosophy is that you have to discipline yourself first, and realize that you cannot control your child, but only help them to make good choices. It has been hard for me to rewire how I think - but we have the best "discipline days" when I follow the method, and the worst when I don't!
(Bailey is not Catholic (that I know of) and a few of her comments come off as relativistic - but I think that overall, her approach fits easily into a Catholic worldview. She promotes a respect for the child that is very consistent with our faith.)
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Spanking ?
