| Author | |
Milehimama
Forum Pro
Joined: July 16 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 202
|
| Posted: Aug 06 2008 at 12:49pm | IP Logged
|
 |
|
I am having issues with my daughter. She is very independent and always wants to do things her way.
I have put many of our Montessori works out of her reach, because she misuses them. For example, if pouring rice, she will pour it on the floor purposely and draw in it. If I give her a tray of rice to draw in, she will put her feet in it. If I give her a washtub with a baby, she will carry it into the TV room (a no-no), or get a straw and blow bubbles in the water.
It is not a question of her 'not understanding'. It's an issue of 'not doing it the conventional way'. She has a contrary nature (heaven help me when we tackle phonics!)
She is not actually destructive, just... doesn't do it "right" on purpose and often messy (yes, I see a distinction between messy and destructive!)
She is very, very busy and often gets into trouble by accident. She's #6 of 7 - I thought I had this toddler thing down, LOL!
My other children were more compliant, and removing an item until they were more mature worked fine. But what do I do when NOTHING is acceptable to her?
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Eleanor
Forum Pro
Joined: June 20 2007
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 326
|
| Posted: Aug 06 2008 at 2:39pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
30 months is typically the beginning of the "oppositional stage," according to Dr. Silvana Montanaro, a leading writer on infant/toddler Montessori principles. She doesn't have a whole lot of practical advice on getting through it, other than the usual -- respect for the child, patience, giving a limited set of choices, etc. -- but just thought I'd share that piece of information, in case it makes you feel better to have a label for it. 
For what it's worth, I don't remember my children doing a lot of "tray-based" practical life activities at that age. They did better with larger-scale chores, like sweeping the floor or washing the table. They also enjoyed working with some of the easier sensorial materials, like the cylinder blocks and pink tower.
Has your daughter tried any of these?
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Eleanor
Forum Pro
Joined: June 20 2007
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 326
|
| Posted: Aug 06 2008 at 2:50pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Sorry to follow up my own post, but I just thought of something that might help. Your daughter sounds quite frustrated with the whole 2 1/2 year old experience -- which Dr. Montanaro says is characterized by a sudden realization of one's own powerlessness -- and the Montessori cure for that is to provide plenty of opportunities for "real work."
This reminded me of a post I read recently on Montessori by Hand. It has some great advice on the differences between Practical Life and "busywork" (and it made me realize that some of our own activities were veering too far toward the latter  ). I think it would be valuable reading for everyone with young children, not just those with cranky toddlers.
Characteristics of Practical Life Activities
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Meredith
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 08 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2355
|
| Posted: Aug 06 2008 at 2:53pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I loved that article when it first came out Eleanor, thanks for linking to it, I loved it all over again 
Blessings!
__________________
Meredith
Mom of 4 Sweeties
Sweetness and Light
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Milehimama
Forum Pro
Joined: July 16 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 202
|
| Posted: Aug 06 2008 at 3:40pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Wow! I've been teaching Montessori at home for over three years, how is it that I've never heard of this site?
That was very helpful. I think part of the problem is that I don't have a lot of practical life "out", because of space issues. I wonder if I could make a book of pictures, and she could choose her activity?
We have a Baby Einstein nesting blocks tower (not the classic pink tower), but she does that "her" way also. She'll decide to try to stack it upside down, or large block/small block large block/small block, using wooden blocks or little people to fill in the spaces to make it work.
Now, I let her do those things as long as she is concentrating, but is that giving her too much freedom?
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
lapazfarm
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 21 2005
Location: Alaska
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6082
|
| Posted: Aug 06 2008 at 3:54pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Great article, Eleanor. Absolutely great. Thanks for linking it. I'm not sure how I missed it the first time around. Possible I was busy with my own "real work"!LOL!
Milehimama, I wish I had some advice for you. Your dd sounds a lot like my grandson. With him it was just a matter of watching him VERY closely to see what exactly his needs were at a given time, and tailoring my trays to his particular needs.Often times his needs were not what I had anticipated and I needed to make adjustments to what I provided him. Always, always tweaking, tweaking.
It does sound as if your dd is more into gross motor things right now. My dgs went through a major dumping stage, where everything I put out he promptly dumped. Very frustrating. So, I finally kind of had an epiphany and just gave him lots of opportunities to dump things.Lots of different things. Eventually the need was met, the thrill was gone and he moved on to "filling" activities.
They do keep us on our toes, don't they?
__________________
Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
montessori_lori
Forum Pro
Joined: June 06 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 322
|
| Posted: Aug 06 2008 at 4:20pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
These ladies have given a lot of great advice and Meg's blog is an excellent resource.
There's no perfect answer to this question, but my daughter is similar and I gave her a lot of activities that were sort of open-ended and didn't have a "right" or "wrong" way - lots of play-doh and painting, lots of water work, like scrubbing or just letting her stand at the sink with a bowl and various containers for pouring.
As Theresa says, observation is important and sometimes you just have to give them things that fill their need, even if it doesn't fit more traditional ideas of Montessori work.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MacBeth
Forum All-Star
Probably at the beach...
Joined: Jan 27 2005
Location: New York
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2518
|
| Posted: Aug 06 2008 at 5:07pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Milehimama wrote:
I am having issues with my daughter. She is very independent and always wants to do things her way.
I have put many of our Montessori works out of her reach, because she misuses them. For example, if pouring rice, she will pour it on the floor purposely and draw in it. If I give her a tray of rice to draw in, she will put her feet in it. If I give her a washtub with a baby, she will carry it into the TV room (a no-no), or get a straw and blow bubbles in the water.
|
|
|
I love this child immediately. You might enjoy the perspective of The Call to Brilliance, which explores the author's path to educating her unconventional learners. Personally, I'd find a way to meet your little one where she is, and not make her fit into a mold that is clearly the wrong shape. Draw in the rice on the floor with her. Blow bubbles in the water with her. I bet that once she sees that you understand her, she will become more compliant. This may be hard, and it may be messy, but in the long run, it will encourage her unique genius rather than squelch it with arbitrary (to her, and in the big picture, to us all) rules of right and wrong.
__________________
God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
MacBeth's Blog 
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Eleanor
Forum Pro
Joined: June 20 2007
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 326
|
| Posted: Aug 06 2008 at 9:08pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Funny you should mention that, MacBeth. I'm reading The Call to Brilliance at the moment, and from what I've seen, it seems as if the author is a supporter of authentic Montessori philosophy. I guess it's all in how you look at it.
Montessori does encourage toddlers to take part in all the sensorial activities they crave, but they're gently guided to do this in a purposeful way that's in keeping with the natural order of things, and in harmony with the life of the community (in this case, the family). Rice on the floor isn't something to get worked up about, but it's also not something we would encourage, for a number of reasons. On the up side, it does lead in nicely to a demonstration of the use of the broom and dustpan. 
I'd also say that the "rules of right and wrong" are only arbitrary if it's busywork. If it's real work, the rules are often there for very good reasons. I think children can often sense this, and it makes a big difference in their level of cooperation.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MacBeth
Forum All-Star
Probably at the beach...
Joined: Jan 27 2005
Location: New York
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2518
|
| Posted: Aug 06 2008 at 10:17pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Eleanor wrote:
| Funny you should mention that, Macbeth. I'm reading The Call to Brilliance at the moment, and from what I've seen, it seems as if the author is a supporter of authentic Montessori philosophy. |
|
|
Possibly. I readily admit that I am not overly familiar with Montessori philosophy, authentic or otherwise, but I get the impression that the author rejects at least the Montessori schools that were available as her children grew or showed real learning differences. I do not believe that the community/home school at which her children thrive is in the Montessori model, though my lack of familiarity with the authentic method may skew my opinion.
Eleanor wrote:
| Montessori does encourage toddlers to take part in all the sensorial activities they crave, but they're gently guided to do this in a purposeful way that's in keeping with the natural order of things, and in harmony with the life of the community (in this case, the family). Rice on the floor isn't something to get worked up about, but it's also not something we would encourage, for a number of reasons. On the up side, it does lead in nicely to a demonstration of the use of the broom and dustpan. |
|
|
I think the key here is purposeful. I can see the purpose, in a certain context, of keeping the rice off the floor. Yet, I see real value in the child who experiments with the alternatives to pouring rice into a container. I am, however, not sure of the purpose of "guiding" a child, gently or otherwise, in how to pour anything out of the context of, let's say, cooking or creating or building or whatever real purpose for which an adult might pour something. Now, if I were cooking rice for dinner, and I had the child helping me, and she poured the rice onto the floor, I might have a reason to correct her: "How can we make dinner if the rice is on the floor?" This will be more meaningful than: "We don't pour rice on the floor." By separating the act of pouring out of the natural situation, but continuing to call it "natural" makes no sense to me. But the use of a dustpan and broom fits right into my view of natural in this case.
Eleanor wrote:
| I'd also say that the "rules of right and wrong" are only arbitrary if it's busywork. If it's real work, the rules are often there for very good reasons. I think children can often sense this, and it makes a big difference in their level of cooperation. |
|
|
That's just my point. If you making a child pour rice simply to pour something, it is busy work. And it is no more meaningful to a child of 30 months than pouring it onto the floor.
(The radical unschooler in me would also contend that the child learns more from pouring it on the floor than pouring it into a cup. )
__________________
God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
MacBeth's Blog
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Eleanor
Forum Pro
Joined: June 20 2007
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 326
|
| Posted: Aug 06 2008 at 11:06pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
MacBeth, your questions and comments get right to the heart of Montessori education, and the concept of the "normalized child." It's a huge subject, certainly worthy of its own thread, but way too much for me to start on this evening. Maybe others can give it a try.
For a general introduction to the subject, I'd suggest this article:
The Secret of Childhood: Normalization and Deviations by Dr. Rita Shaefer Zener
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MacBeth
Forum All-Star
Probably at the beach...
Joined: Jan 27 2005
Location: New York
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2518
|
| Posted: Aug 06 2008 at 11:18pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
The word "normalization" gives me the creeps.
Thanks for the link to the article, Eleanor. I'll read it, for sure.
I do not want to hijack this thread at all...Montessori is not my area at all...sorry to digress so! 
__________________
God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
MacBeth's Blog
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Milehimama
Forum Pro
Joined: July 16 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 202
|
| Posted: Aug 06 2008 at 11:42pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I don't like the word "normalization", but the only alternative I can come up with is "un-disordered-fication" which is way worse!
I don't think she is pouring rice on the floor for alternate stimulation. I really think she is pouring it on the floor because that's what she's NOT supposed to do. If only you could see the wink and the smirk she wears while she does it... she is such a joyful child, though.
She's a contrary little imp! But, she is disturbing the peace!
I'll be tackling the article tomorrow, if I can.
Here's a post that may illustrate what I'm up against...
If You Have A Toddler
She loved the idea of a "waterfalling" - her word - in the bathroom. She was *supposed* to be sleeping.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
SuzanneG
Forum Moderator
Joined: June 17 2006
Location: Idaho
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5465
|
| Posted: Aug 07 2008 at 12:11am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I'm coming strictly from a pragmatic point of view here ~ (haven't read the article yet, and haven't read that much about all this from a Montessori perspect)
my dd is 30 months old and would do the same sort of things. (perhaps not with the sly smile that you described ) I just keep observing and trying new things. and, if she find something else to do with the rice, then that's fine....as long as it's not affecting other people's work, etc. Also if it's making an extra mess, then I'd insist she "help" clean it up. And, I'd probably applaud the neat ideas and crazy contraptions she comes up with.
Ditto the idea about more activities that are open ended. You can even MAKE certain things more open-ended. ie: the RICE: Get a big tub of rice with a bunch of cups, bowls, etc., place on a big sheet and let her go to it.
A couple other thoughts...
Does she need more "crazy time"???? Where she can get her ya-yas out? Is there too much structure in the day? Not enough?
Is she looking for attention? Or just being creative?
If she doesn't want to do everything the "conventional way" and this is part of her make-up, then you want to encourage it, and give her the freedom (within limits of course) so that it dosn't become a power struggle. I personally love it when my kids think of something completely different from what I envisioned. It's wonderful! This is the stuff entrepreneurs are made of
__________________
Suzanne in ID
Wife to Pete
Mom of 7 (Girls - 14, 12, 11, 9, 7 and Boys - 4, 1)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Eleanor
Forum Pro
Joined: June 20 2007
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 326
|
| Posted: Aug 07 2008 at 12:17am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Just wanted to add one more interesting page, before bed. This one is for everyone: it addresses MacBeth's "why pouring?" question, and it also gives some helpful advice about practical life activities in general. In particular, I appreciate the authors' reminder about the importance of the grace & courtesy lessons, the Silence Game, and "walking on the line." (These activities tend to be overlooked in our home, just as in the classrooms described in the article, and I'm sure we'd benefit from doing them more frequently.  )
The Exercises of Practical Life by Tim Seldin and Jonathan Wolff
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mackfam
Board Moderator
Non Nobis
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: Alabama
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14656
|
| Posted: Aug 07 2008 at 7:35am | IP Logged
|
|
|
SuzanneG wrote:
I just keep observing and trying new things. and, if she find something else to do with the rice, then that's fine....as long as it's not affecting other people's work, etc. Also if it's making an extra mess, then I'd insist she "help" clean it up. And, I'd probably applaud the neat ideas and crazy contraptions she comes up with.
Ditto the idea about more activities that are open ended. You can even MAKE certain things more open-ended. ie: the RICE: Get a big tub of rice with a bunch of cups, bowls, etc., place on a big sheet and let her go to it.
A couple other thoughts...
Does she need more "crazy time"???? Where she can get her ya-yas out? Is there too much structure in the day? Not enough?
Is she looking for attention? Or just being creative?
If she doesn't want to do everything the "conventional way" and this is part of her make-up, then you want to encourage it, and give her the freedom (within limits of course) so that it dosn't become a power struggle. I personally love it when my kids think of something completely different from what I envisioned. It's wonderful! This is the stuff entrepreeurs are made of |
|
|
I love Suzanne's ideas, and they are completely do-able. I hear you when you say she gets "that look" - I've got a little man that lives to test boundaries!
I really think Suzanne's questions get to the heart of the matter...Is she looking for attention? Does she need an outlet to express herself creatively?
I'm not sure I want to get into the "normalization" discussion...I have my own opinions there and I don't like the term. I do know what you mean, and I understand it's hard to find a word to fit what you're looking for. I think?? you're looking for your 30month old to feel creative, engaged and like there is purpose in her work while naturally staying within some gentle boundaries. That's what I seek. When they feel engaged, when an activity is meeting them right where they are, there are no issues of defiance or sly smirking, my children are eager to get their hands into something.
At 30 months, the world is completely open and their newly acquired motor skills are exploding while their powers of judgement are non-existent. It's a recipe that must be satisfied with a lot of engaging and almost always messy stuff.
You might be interpreting defiance, when she's actually saying, "I'm bored with scooping into the bowl, I want to see how far I can make the little rice's bounce when I dump them onto the floor. " Perhaps just saying something gently like, "Let's not dump the rice on the floor. Would you like to spread out a little more with the rice and the cups? Let's go get one of mommy's big sheets." And then, sit down with her and scoop and pile and plow and run your fingers through it with her. When my 3yo starts acting out he is almost always just needing my attention and something interesting to do - and generally I'm distracted or doing something else and not providing enough of myself for him.
I think I'm just agreeing with what Theresa and others have said, if she needs to dump and scoop - let her. It could be she's in the same sensitive period my son is in right now - that of dumping, knocking-over, scaling large upholstered objects and jumping to the nearest (and not so nearest) upholstered object. I don't really turn a blind eye, but I have to catch myself from constantly saying, "don't do that, you know we don't jump from couch to chair..." After a couple of times I see that this child really needs this sort of activity and is looking for it - so I try to offer it in a way that is safe and offers a couple of boundaries. I move him to my bed and pile a bunch of pillows on the floor and grab the camera.
I think MacBeth is on to something, if she's not satisfied with rice scooping, why not pull a chair up to the counter and have her do some scooping while helping you make some cookies? It could be that scooping rice into a tidy bucket seems ridiculous and unpurposeful to her and she's letting you know. Satisfies 3 birds in one stone - her scooping and purposeful work, her need to spend focused time with you, and cookies for snacks! That can never be bad.
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Milehimama
Forum Pro
Joined: July 16 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 202
|
| Posted: Aug 07 2008 at 10:03am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Mackfam wrote:
you're looking for your 30month old to feel creative, engaged and like there is purpose in her work while naturally staying within some gentle boundaries. |
|
|
Yes! Exactly. I want her to begin to work independently and to *begin* to develop self control.
How the heck do I *do* that with my spunky child? My other two children that I did Montessori with are very laid back, more quiet, observers.
My children that share the "Maximus" personality traits were older (5 and 6) when I began Montessori, and never really did ture Montessori at all (we do a Mason/Montessori/Classical blend...it's 4real, I guess, LOL!)
The gentle boundaries are the key, and the difficulty I'm having. I can *make* her do it the "right" way, but it would be through coercion, not her own free will.
I want her to have purposeful activities, that do not interfere with others (and so very, very often her conduct infringes on her 4 yo sister's activities, etc.)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
montessori_lori
Forum Pro
Joined: June 06 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 322
|
| Posted: Aug 07 2008 at 10:05am | IP Logged
|
|
|
For anyone who dislikes the word "normalization" - someone left a comment at this blog post of mine, explaining what Dr. Montessori meant in Italian when using this word. Very enlightening and helpful. Our English meaning isn't the same (scroll near the end of the comments to read her comment):
Sterling Qualities of the 'Normalized' Montessori Child
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mackfam
Board Moderator
Non Nobis
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: Alabama
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14656
|
| Posted: Aug 07 2008 at 11:05am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Milehimama wrote:
Yes! Exactly. I want her to begin to work independently and to *begin* to develop self control.
How the heck do I *do* that with my spunky child? My other two children that I did Montessori with are very laid back, more quiet, observers.
The gentle boundaries are the key, and the difficulty I'm having. I can *make* her do it the "right" way, but it would be through coercion, not her own free will.
I want her to have purposeful activities, that do not interfere with others (and so very, very often her conduct infringes on her 4 yo sister's activities, etc.) |
|
|
I think its important to keep in mind her age and her very real need to just play. She's letting you know very clearly what she needs right now, follow her cues - that's Montessori! There is a great tendency right now in the mainstream to "acitivity-ize" (if I can make up my own word... ) absolutely everything. There is no time for anything that isn't unrehearsed, unplanned, unstructured. There is no time for creative play. No time for a child to just be themselves. That's a danger in my opinion. Children need to have time to just *be*!
Your daughter is young yet. Set out a few activities. Show her what she can do with them. If she wants to blow bubbles in the water, take your dishpan to the kitchen, put it in the sink and pull up a straw. If she wants to dump everything out - give her some freedom to do that. I do not think you should be forcing an idea of a *right* way to do an activity. You can show her something, if she doesn't want to do it that way...let her be - she's 2.
When the child is older, I think expectations can elevate a little when we show them how to use a material, but even then, I like to allow for them to extend the work they are doing if it is done in a purposeful way. My 7yo son was using the brown stairs the other day to stretch across the room and measure it. That's not the purpose of the activity, but I saw no harm in it, so I encouraged him.
Now, to answer your question about how to engage joyfully and gently your 30 month old - I think a healthy balance of reading, activity, time spent together with you, free play time. Perhaps it would be beneficial to look at the rhythm of your days a little more - setting up more of a rhythm so the children know more what to expect from the day is helpful - even for the littles. Punctuate the day with some picture books - don't just sit down once with her, sit down in the morning, after lunch, before naps, etc. Put some thought into activities she is longing for - if she really enjoys water works, set her up at the sink with some cups, a little sponge and some fun pouring tools. Adding dishwashing soap to a half full sink of water or even the bathtub is an absolute favorite activity around here! Then, allow for that free expression. If pouring rice is boring - don't offer it. If she isn't doing something truly destructive - let her be 2.
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
stefoodie
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 17 2005
Location: Ohio
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8457
|
| Posted: Aug 07 2008 at 12:01pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
MacBeth wrote:
| Now, if I were cooking rice for dinner, and I had the child helping me, and she poured the rice onto the floor, I might have a reason to correct her: "How can we make dinner if the rice is on the floor?" This will be more meaningful than: "We don't pour rice on the floor." By separating the act of pouring out of the natural situation, but continuing to call it "natural" makes no sense to me. But the use of a dustpan and broom fits right into my view of natural in this case. |
|
|
Your description of your dd, and what MacBeth said above, reminded me of this, from almost 4 years ago:
Brought back good memories She had fun with the dustpan and broom afterwards as well!
Whoops, ETA: She's not too happy about me posting her pic here. She's insisting I post pics of her big sis and big bros as well.
__________________
stef
mom to five
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
Forum Locked) 
4Real Forums : Nurturing the Years of Wonder
Topic: Normalizing a 30 month old
