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Maggie
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| Posted: June 17 2009 at 1:08pm | IP Logged
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Hi Ladies,
My husband had an interesting question. We know that Charlotte Mason advocated not starting formal education until 6 or 7, and we have read the arguments for this.
My husband would like to know if there is any research out there that counters this? Is there any research that actually advocates starting reading early? Math early? When I say early, I mean 4ish.
Does "delaying" education have any drawbacks?
Thank you all!
God bless,
Maggie
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Wife to dh (12 years) Mama to dd (10) ds (8), dd (1), ds (nb) and to Philip Mary (5/26/09), Lucy Joy (12/6/09), and Margaret Mary (3/6/10) who entered Heaven before we had a chance to hold them.
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Sarah M
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| Posted: June 17 2009 at 2:31pm | IP Logged
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I think the research that advocates early schooling is based on children who live in poverty. As I recall (and I think it was from a book by David Elkind, but I could totally be off- it's been awhile...) the entire Head Start program (which starts children in school at age 3, oftentimes) is supported by research that shows children who live in very low income situations often do better if they start school earlier. It's my understanding that proponents for nation-wide preschool are using this research to describe why all 3 and 4 year olds should be in school.
I wish I had some links for you. I'll see if I can dig any up.
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Bethany
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| Posted: June 17 2009 at 4:06pm | IP Logged
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I think that is in Elkind's book Miseducation.
Also, when did he begin fomal schooling? I often talk about the fact that most of us didn't have any formal schooling until K or 1st grade. My kindergarten was 1/2 day and all I remember is the really great kitchen set that I loved to play with because I didn't have one at home. All the girls would be in a mad dash to it at playtime. Also, I remember the playground equipment. We didn't begin any formal reading instruction until 1st grade (6 yo). Preschool was very unusual then, now it's just an assupmtion that it's good. Also, it plays to the idea that education is just the filling up of information and that the sooner you start the more you can cram in.
I don't know where I've read this, and it's been in several places, but that a child can learn to read at 4 or 8, or anywhere in between, and it has no bearing on their reading ability at 3rd or 4th grade.
From my own experience and people I know, preschool is seen as the great opportunity to get them out so you can go to the gym, run errands, or give them that much needed "socialization". I sometimes get anxious and think I should make my younger ones do more, but then I realize that's because I'm concerned about what other people think and not what's necessarily best.
Sorry if this seems a little rambling, this assumption that we have to start earlier and earlier is one of my pet peeves  .
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Bethany
Wife to Mike, Mommy to Amelia (6/02), Sarah (10/03), Martha Grace (10/05), Rebecca Anne (12/07), Laura Catherine (3/10) and Reed Michael 7/4/14.
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LucyP
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| Posted: June 19 2009 at 10:09am | IP Logged
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In England they must by law be in full-time eductaion (home or school) by the term after their fifth birthday, which means lots of children here start school at 4. And many are in nursery from 2. It's not exactly formal but there is a curriculum even for tots at nursery.
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Taffy
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| Posted: June 19 2009 at 10:45am | IP Logged
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I think that a child should begin school when s/he is ready. How's that for a simplistic answer?
My kids have all been early readers, even the one who's developmentally delayed (he could read but has trouble with comprehension). To delay them would have frustrated them a lot.
I totally agree that there is absolutely no bearing on how well a child will do if they start to read at 3 or at 8. By the time both are 10, there will be little, if any, difference. But I don't see a point in delaying things if the child is ready.
Regarding formal school (ie, public school), I could see an argument for it in certain situations. If both parents are unable to provide proper care, nurturing and supervision at home, then school may be a better place. My husband spent a year teaching at a school on a reserve, (first nations reservation), and the children literally were allowed to run wild. It is no exaggeration to say that for many of them, the first time they received any discipline or were told that they must obey themselves was at school. For these children, en early start might be better.
There is an argument for early entrance for those with autism or developmental disabilities. The higher level of structure in the day makes it easier for these kids to cope. However, our experience has shown that the noise and distractions that being in a room full of other children, and the insufficient guidance of a teacher/aide who has too many children under his/her care counteracts this immensely (although there are schools where there is a VERY low teacher/student ratio where school is better - these schools generally are too expensive for most, including ourselves, to consider).
Sorry for the long-winded answer. It's a very individual question and the answer is different for every child. To the child who shows an early interest in reading and books, forcing them to delay things seems pointless (in my special needs son, it was one of the few ways we could get him to interact with us at all). In the child with little to no interest, there is no reason to push until age 9 or 10.
Elizabeth Foss once wrote on her blog that we must not forget that the quality of books for children is much better now than in Charlotte Mason's time. We must take things like that into account.
One more note then I'll quit. Regarding math, a LOT of math instruction can be done (and really, should be done) very informally at the elementary level. I think that too many parents and teachers get hung up on their children knowing their math facts. Of much more importance, is the ability to understand and use the mathematical concepts. While it is important to know that 2+2=4, for instance, it is of equal, if not greater, importance to understand WHY 2+2=4. I much prefer to use a text for math but it's mostly for my convenience, to make sure that we cover all the basic concepts since math is like a language and a strong understanding in the basics leads to greater fluency in the higher levels. But, really, most, if not all, of elementary math can be taught by playing, games, and learning handicrafts (it's amazing how much math is involved in things like sewing, knitting, construction (things like a table, a dog house)).
OK, I'll be quiet now.  Hope this answers your question a bit at least.
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Susan
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Willa
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| Posted: June 19 2009 at 11:12am | IP Logged
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Maggie, are you talking about formal preschool, or just starting early at home? I mean, is your husband talking about just "starting early" or the actual universal preschool push?
I did a lot of searching online but couldn't find much that supported early formal academics. I think Glenn Doman is someone who talks about the benefits of early literacy. Information here
I think in some ways there is no doubt that early childhood makes a big difference in future academics. That is the idea behind Montessori's early childhood activities. However, whether anything is needed beyond crayons and paper, books to read, play equipment and a warm relationship with a primary caregiver -- I think that's more debatable. Even Glenn Doman talks about GENTLE flash cards and the like. I have a friend who actually did teach her baby to read using his methods -- it was sort of a game and the toddler did learn to read a bit.
Where it seemed to get complicated was when the child was 5, all boy, and wasn't really THAT interested in doing advanced reading -- he was just a typical kid who wanted to play and listen to books. My friend and her DH were having a hard time not putting pressure on him to keep advancing. I think that is one possibly risk of early academics that aren't the child's own initiative -- Charlotte Mason warns against this -- the child will do it, and might even have fun, but it is a strain to his maturity level and it's hard for the parent not to put subtle pressure on him or her.
This isn't to say you have to keep a child AWAY from reading. My youngest Paddy started reading when he was about three. He started picking out letters and words off the text. I didn't start teaching him formally until he was 5.5 and by then I found he could already read.
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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Taffy
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| Posted: June 19 2009 at 12:53pm | IP Logged
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 I like your answer much better than mine Willa! 
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Susan
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Maggie
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| Posted: June 23 2009 at 3:36pm | IP Logged
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Sorry for the late reply...
In answer to Willa...when I say "starting formal schooling"...I meant in the home.  ie: math, learning to read, etc...
My dd is 4 and is an "eager beaver". She "begs" to home school. We did Little Saints this past year and really enjoyed it! I know some complain it is a lot of prep work--we just tailored that and readjusted 
So...I am at a loss of what to do with her this next year. I have looked at FIAR...but it doesn't seem like enough for her...Honestly, she will be asking for more. I am looking at Elizabeth's Along the Alphabet Path, too...
but then I have friends encouraging me to teach my dd to read...and do math...
Which is where my dh had the question of...what does the research say in regards to "starting early" and "starting later"?
Kwim?
Maggie
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Wife to dh (12 years) Mama to dd (10) ds (8), dd (1), ds (nb) and to Philip Mary (5/26/09), Lucy Joy (12/6/09), and Margaret Mary (3/6/10) who entered Heaven before we had a chance to hold them.
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ALmom
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| Posted: June 24 2009 at 1:26am | IP Logged
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If you want to read two things at somewhat different points on the spectrum - try Dr. Moores "Better Late than Early" and then something from Maria Montessori.
Initially they seem as if they are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Moore's research (and if your dh likes a lot of research, Moore has a lot of discussion of when the integration of the senses takes place - typically later for boys btw and discourages formal learning before age 8, sometimes recommends waiting until age 10). Montessori speaks of a rich environment from the earliest days and how critical it is to their future. But then when you look at how she actually sets up the program - there is a lot available that the child chooses from and the teacher isn't forcing the child to choose materials so you don't have so much risk of forcing something that the child's eyes or coordination is not ready for. There is a lot of movement and hands on - and you can certainly learn a great deal without sitting down with a single printed thing.
If the child does not have integrated senses yet, I can almost guarantee that they won't choose drawing or writing activities - but they might choose spooning or something else that helps develop this. I have seen my older children drawn to some things in the 3- 6 materials - over and over for say a month and then suddenly see my children suddenly able to do the handwriting that seemed so laborious and messy before. Dr. Moore, in insisting on delaying formal education is not talking about limiting their environment or opportunities - but forcing them to sit down with lots of eyestraining books and workbooks that their little eyes just aren't ready to handle. He seemed to mostly be observing the ways that early, traditional education puts a strain on the visual system. I don't think he would at all have a problem with children pursuing things in a more hands on way where they are exploring their environment and allowed to move and explore hands on.
Reading these two may give you some ideas on how to set things up for your child without running the risk of causing harm to undeveloped visual skills, etc.
We, personally, have seen the integration occur at 10 or so - with reading around here not until 9. They had no problem learning through manipulatives, being read to, and many of Montessori's activities were actually helpful in helping the integration along. (We knew we had some vision issues, so we had physical reasons to delay the start of school here).
Janet
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: When should children formally school?
