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tovlo4801
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| Posted: Sept 14 2005 at 6:16pm | IP Logged
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I smiled when I saw Willa mention the Kolbe Ignatian education booklet. I bought it this summer at our homeschool conference and finally had a chance to read it on the train back from D.C. It was really not what I expected. I expected a strict and rigorous treatment of education. To be honest a lot of it sounded like what attracted me to unschooling. 
Is Ignatian education classical?
I liked so much of what I read. There were some things I still struggle to make sense of too, like the importance of memorization and how suposedly natural it is to kids. That has not been my experience. I also wonder about the amount of writing that is encouraged. I really have fallen in love with the Bravewriter direction and it almost seems backwards from the process described in the booklet. The booklet stressed getting mechanics down, then form and finally having something to say. Honestly, the Bravewriter direction just seems to make so much more sense to me. I just think my son will do better writing first, working out the mechanics, and finally shaping it into proper form. But maybe different directions work better for different kids?
There was much more I was on board with than that I struggled with though. I loved the advocacy of integration of subjects. That was one of the main reasons I began homeschooling. I wanted my kids to understand that math and literature and philosophy are not all seperate subjects, but interconnected. It was important to me that they understood the integrated role of everything under the Creator. I just didn't know how to provide it to them. I was beginning to think seriously about using Kolbe to some degree this summer, and after reading this booklet, I'm thinking even more seriously about it.
I also liked the description of prelection. This was completely new to me. I've always struggled with how to motivate. I smiled when I read on pg. 22, "It is good to compare the teacher's position with that of a coach!" Hmmm, that's sounds a lot like the conclusion that was arrived at in the unschooling discussion, too.  That's the piece of unschooling that attracts me. Not being overbearing in the role of teacher, but presenting, guiding, motivating, sending them off to self-activity, hearing what they've absorbed and then gently redirecting the process again. I can't find it now, but there was a description of a baseball coach who demonstrates how to hit, gives the kids a few pieces of advice about things that might be difficult for them, physically helps them through the first swing, steps back to let them do it on their own, observes strengths and weaknesses, and then steps back in to gently redirect again.
Beautiful! Now I just need to figure out how to do this well. Any hints?
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BrendaPeter
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| Posted: Sept 14 2005 at 9:48pm | IP Logged
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tovlo4801 wrote:
There were some things I still struggle to make sense of too, like the importance of memorization and how suposedly natural it is to kids. That has not been my experience. |
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Hi Richelle,
Is the Ignatian booklet broken down into the different stages of development - grammatical, dialectical, rhetorical? I think the key with memorization (& with all of the classical education for that matter) is to focus on it in the proper stage. My kids have been doing memory work since kindergarten. In the early years I find it comes very naturally. They've always memorized poems & the Baltimore Catechism. Laura Berquist recommends working on memory work for no more than 5 minutes as more than that sets up impediments. My 2 oldest also memorize latin vocabulary as well. For them it has become a habit. Also they don't mind doing it, as the know it will be over with very quickly.
tovlo4801 wrote:
| I also wonder about the amount of writing that is encouraged. I really have fallen in love with the Bravewriter direction and it almost seems backwards from the process described in the booklet. The booklet stressed getting mechanics down, then form and finally having something to say. Honestly, the Bravewriter direction just seems to make so much more sense to me. I just think my son will do better writing first, working out the mechanics, and finally shaping it into proper form. But maybe different directions work better for different kids? |
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I also like Bravewriter and know what you mean. I'm trying to incorporate some of Julie's ideas as well. I find my 1st child is kind of like an "experiment" so I'm not sure what will work best! Have you read "How to Design Your Own Classical Curriculum"? I like Laura's book but in the past using her curriculum guides stressed me out. I find when I just use the book & pray for guidance (unschooling?!) things go better. Anyway, I think the idea of writing within the classical curriculum is to do some "gentle" assignments in the early years just to get their feet wet. Getting the mechanics down is part of the dialectical stage of development - meaning that they enjoy the mechanics & analysis of it all. For instance, my oldest is in 6th grade - he likes diagramming sentences!!! He thinks it's fun!!  As far as writing form goes, I would say it's more of the "discipline" of learning how to organize thoughts in general without the pressure of writing something directly in an organized fashion.
I hope I've made some sense here! My overall experience with the classical curriculum has been extremely positive because I find that I work with the children on doing things that they are naturally able to do so there's much less resistance. I also love the idea of focusing on method vs. content - i.e. we work on certain disciplines & it really doesn't matter what we use. For instance, we can organize Star Wars cards into categories if that what works. Any problems we have had have come from MOM who imagines that she has a specific agenda . Someone on another forum wrote something about not sacrificing "relationship" for "education". That is true across the board.
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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ALmom
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I haven't used bravewriter and must admit we've done a lot of different things to try and get the writing going. This is not an area of strength for us. My 5th grader is still working on starting with a capital and ending with punctuation. He thought 3 horribly misspelled sentences without capitalization or punctuation strung together was a wonderful essay. I didn't have the heart to criticize it and made a note to start at a different level next time. He is off writing a story about Vikings right now with older sister's editing help. I cannot wait to see it as he has a little more passion about this (a self selected thing) as opposed to assigned writing. The 2 grader cannot answer questions in complete sentences because writing (the physical act) is so tedious for him and so large he runs out of space. The 8 grader is naturally starting to do some writing in content area and we are pointing out the need to Prove your point. Hers is a result of on-going literature conversations with friends so there has been some oral analysis before she has been asked to write it. She cannot, however, keep up with the pace of Kolbe writing assignments.
Our oldest started by writing creatively first as little scribble stories and books on her own (apart from school) and then as a submission to Written and Illustrated By... which motivated her to do her best as it was going to be read and maybe published and I was the editor correcting grammar and spelling and asking questions to lead her to polishing her work without telling her what to say. She is very strong at writing personal essays, and the spit and polish and is generally well organized in what is written. However, she really struggles with writing in a content area. It is hard for her to support points with specific examples. This may be from focusing on the creative first without the other. The exercise of writing essays in English or History is more about organizing the content in your mind than it is about writing. The process helps them learn how to learn - how to make those connections between those facts and figures as opposed to memorizing them. It helps them see deeper meanings and ponder on a deeper level.
I really think I will want to do more content writing (as Kolbe recommends) for this reason. I really believe it helps them process the information being read and make those connections. I wonder if all our creative writing at the expense of writing in content area has adversely affected our oldest who still misses a lot of subtle points in literature. Her lowest part of the SAT was critical reading. I see her struggle with history as this is a field where sequence and organization and making connections are essential
However, I have to figure out a way to make it productive - real, so that there is motivation and not the endless blather produced to get a grade. I have been asked to teach writing to another moms children in trade for art lessons. I am very overwhelmed as this is not my area of expertise - and feeling pretty incompetent in teaching much of anything right now.
I have been toying around with the idea of making the kids be each others editors with me as consultant. Perhaps we should publish an Alabama homeschoolers type paper with all different kinds of writing in it so that there is some reason to write other than to fulfill the requirement of English 9, History, etc. If someone just couldn't follow an arguement because they knew nothing of the book or historical event, all the better because that forces the author to be perfectly clear and organized. Each student will have to write about something that they are studying in their own "school" as we are all using different curriculums ranging from unschooling to very structured.
I really do think the essay assignments in Kolbe, at the high school level, are fabulous. I do have to remember that Quality is more important than quantity. Therefore, if a certain form of writing is difficult for my children, we may not get to all the papers. We may only discuss the other essay assignments. I really think it is the process of writing something, getting feedback and then rewriting and improving that results in learning. Last year oldest dd cranked out 20 papers in 2 weeks and I couldn't begin to edit all those. I wish she'd gone slower, allowed me to make suggestions on the first few and then done whatever other ones she could get to once we could see she was applying what she had learned from the first few papers.
So has anyone successfully launched a writing class? I have an old book from a retired teacher that talks about folders, reviews, editing from each other, etc. The students here were allowed to pick their own things to write about but were stimulated by what they read. I'd love to see this happen - and that is really what Kolbe seems to be doing - just there are specific assignments as a guide.
It's late and I should be in bed so I won't be cranky mom tomorrow. I do think all the stress on writing in content area has more to do with the need to learn how to analyze and connect pieces of different information. Being able to organize it, express it orally and in writing is really what makes that happen. Not being able to write a coherent sentence will prevent the organization from happening to some extent. It's not that creative writing isn't important, but it does serve a different purpose. I notice that when there are creative assignments in Kolbe, they are designed to have the student imitate a certain style or form which solidifies the appreciation of that particular poetic form in your mind.
I would think that true creative writing is something that cannot really be assigned by itself but would naturally grow from the desire and confidence to express thoughts on paper. That is done by publishing student work of all sorts - art, poetry, etc. The one thing I struggle with is making sure there is free time to do those kinds of things and not getting bogged down in the academics. Our children don't move quickly through anything - not even workbooks. I'm not sure why it takes us so long to do what most people seem to be able to do quickly. We never seem to have any relaxed, free time and that is a real sorrow of my heart which we are looking to find a way to remedy.
Janet
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BrendaPeter
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ALmom wrote:
I really think I will want to do more content writing (as Kolbe recommends) for this reason. I really believe it helps them process the information being read and make those connections. I wonder if all our creative writing at the expense of writing in content area has adversely affected our oldest who still misses a lot of subtle points in literature. Janet |
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Just a quick idea - I think narration really lays the foundation for writing. Friends have commented on my son's organized way of explaining things (he is an auditory learner I should point out). My kids have alot of opportunities for content writing in their nature notebooks and book of centuries.
I'm not so ambitious to start up a writing group, as writing is definately not my forte. We're planning to try 3 months of writeguide.com in the near future for the oldest.
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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tovlo4801
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| Posted: Sept 15 2005 at 9:57am | IP Logged
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No the book isn't broken down in the classical stages. The book's organization was a little confusing, but it was the material within that was so great. I guess that's why I wondered about the connection between Ignatian education and classical as it's practiced now.
This is a completely personal perspective, but my brain just shuts down when I see classical education things as it seems to be typically practiced now. Please don't be offended if it's working for you. I really think it can be great and if it's working, wonderful! It's just that it was not wonderful as practiced in our family. I don't know yet if we just weren't practicing it well or if it's just really not suited to our family. I'm hoping following threads here will help me sort that out. I'm looking forward to trying to blend ideas from the Ignatian book into what we're already planning to do. Ignatian I loved! Classical...jury's still out. 
I did read Laura Berquist's book. I have it here and refered to it last year frequently as I began to plan my own lessons. I only picked things that I thought would work and never really tried to do the whole thing. The main reason I decided to do my own thing was because I had begun to see classical education as dictated by someone else for us as simply miserable.
I really wonder how much classical fitting a family or not is learning styles and temperment. All the classical information says that memorizing is fun (?!?!) for kids. So completely NOT my experience. It was TORTURE for all involved. I don't know if this was actually in the Ignatian education booklet or if I just thought this myself as I read, but I think we could try it again but this time letting my son choose what he'd like to memorize and making it a tiny, tiny part of school. Letting him direct the game. I can see the benefit to exercise of memory. I understand that it is wise to choose things to memorize that are of value. Yet, I guess for our family, I think there is a quite broad range of valuable things that could be tapped to work on memory with. I'm not going to let myself feel trapped in a torture game with my son. I want to be rather flexible about what I allow as worthwhile to memorize and not be too overly strict about it.
Baltimore Cathechism for example. First year homeschooling we tried to memorize it. We learned a great deal and really enjoyed the catechism, but most of our enjoyment came from discussing the ideas together, looking up scripture, etc. I think he learned best that way. It probably would have been wonderful if he could have memorized the hooks for the future, but it was difficult and painful. Frankly I don't think he remembers anything we shed so much blood trying to get into his head. He stutters, so verbal memorization work took 20 minutes for what would take a normal child 5. Writing is tedious for him, so copying to memorize was awful as well. I just didn't know what to do and honestly didn't even see the point anymore. I think he has a really good grasp of the concepts in the catechism and I don't believe memorizing was truly a necessary thing.
So do you guys who do classical education see your role as a guide/coach in your child's education? If not, how do you see it?
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ALmom
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| Posted: Sept 15 2005 at 10:18am | IP Logged
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Brenda,
You are right! The one daughter that does like to write is the one to have the most opportunity at narration - it was mostly with her homeschooled friend. I tend to not be very good at discussion and it is the writing that helps me to know what to / how to discuss. It gives me the clue as to what they are getting out of the book, etc. and then I know what needs to be discussed. It is the way I am able to keep up with what each one is doing. But she is also the one that I know has had all vision issues corrected. It's hard for me to know what difficulties are related to vision and which to choices in texts, philosophies, or teaching.
We are back to where we started at the beginning of the year. It is the time thing - how do you manage to discuss with all your children. I know this is our big need, but cannot seem to find a way to get to all the children. Between vision therapy for 3, college application, visiting colleges and music, I really feel overwhelmed. Also, I wonder if the slowness some of my children experience has to do with not having to do enough physical writing and then the ideas outmatch the eye/hand ability to put it on paper. We are still dealing with a child who has some left/right type of things - so he'll spell a word and interchange the position of letters in the word or he'll write a math problem and instead of saying 3 r1, he'll write 31r. Trying to learn where to put commas - I don't know if it is part of this or something else but it looks like he is clueless. This child is ambedexterous (although he writes exclusively with the right hand) so when the therapist advised us to do a lot of quizzing on "show me your right hand" "How do you know it is your right hand?" etc., he told us he couldn't say which hand he wrote with because either would feel correct. We found that he gets it sometimes and sometimes he doesn't. However, he is so bright that he has managed to find coping techniques so we have to constantly change rooms/positions etc. or he uses clues outside himself but cannot identify within himself. We finally came upon identifying the left hand as that is the hand he always puts his watch on (but rarely wears his watch) and doing snow angels with eyes closed and asking for different things involving left/right. He is at least consistently getting left/right correct, but he does have to think about it quite a bit.
I know you guys have small children, too. And Willa, I know you have learning issues/demands far exceeding mine. How do you do it? Our 3 yo is quite a wonderful bundle of energy. He has currently misplaced pieces of therapy materials that we must use and then return and cannot find. Plus, he likes to be the center of attention and does not understand why his favorite siblings (all of them at some point in the day) cannot play with him all day long. They love taking breaks with him, but then when they need to go back to school, we end up with a temper tantrum. We try to let him sleep as long as possible in the AM as he will not sleep for a nap at all!
Since my 8 yo and 11 yo both have vision problems (as does the 6 yo), a certain amount of my supervision is really necessary so they understand directions, etc. They cannot just be set loose on projects and trying to do something major like a mini book or scrap book honestly overwhelms me and is not particularly interesting to them unless they are not doing the physical writing. Our 8 yo is just now getting adept at using scissors, so a lot of the artsy type things are not that appealing. We do more things like cut and create, just to get the coordination and practice. We are having them all do Mavis Beacon teaches typing in the hopes that this will help too. The range of abilities varies so much that I cannot put them in the same materials, although they do discuss among themselves in areas of passion. IE 8 yo will discuss science experiments, 11yo will discuss some history but has struggled in so many things for so long that he lacks a lot of confidence and tends to discuss mostly with his 13 yo sister who has a real gift for empathy and did go through a lot of this herself before her vision issues were corrected. He has more trouble with me helping him, but responds beautifully to his 13 yo sister's editing suggestions - I think (we'll see when I finally get to see his story).
Our oldest is a very oral learner and is now taking an English class just so I'm sure she gets discussion with someone before graduation. She is very diligent, but impatient and won't wait for me to have time for fear that it will put her too far behind. Part of me is so sad because I really want the time for discussion of her course work with her, but it isn't happening much. I just cannot keep up with her pace. It's hard enough for me to stay on top of grading her assignments. We have been bogged down for so long that she has reason to fear getting behind and having more summer work and this year, we have to be done at a certain time in order to send transcripts to colleges. Her favorite classes are the ones I have nothing to do with, but that she has a tutor for. Sometimes I think we should have let her go to ps for high school.
I really think I am diverging, but I guess I wonder if the Ignatian method is only for the quick students or does it really help everyone? It seems to be based on certain ideas about how learning takes place and those ring true to me - but we just haven't been able to find anything that seems to really work for us. I think a lot has to be that somehow I am failing our children. Every philosophy that rings true to me, involves a lot of time and ability on the part of the teacher. I'm struggling to find out how to do it.
Janet
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Willa
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| Posted: Sept 15 2005 at 11:47am | IP Logged
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tovlo4801 wrote:
| I also wonder about the amount of writing that is encouraged. I really have fallen in love with the Bravewriter direction and it almost seems backwards from the process described in the booklet. The booklet stressed getting mechanics down, then form and finally having something to say. Honestly, the Bravewriter direction just seems to make so much more sense to me. |
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Hi Richelle,
I'm still catching up on the discussion. But I was just rereading the Ignatian booklet yesterday and it says about writing:
"The Ignatian method of training in expression does not consist in a formal study of precepts by definition and disquition. The measure of competence is not the ability to repeate textbook statements and rules, but to write correctly and effectively. The Ignatian method of language teaching is functional.
"To remember the rule of grammar is less important than to understand and apply it in writing and speaking. Indeed, the rule is found in the model and reproduced in the written task. Thus there is an intimate connection between the study of grammar, author and composition."
Yes, then it does go on to talk about starting from the ground up as you mentioned, but I think that what I've quoted above is the primary goal, so the Bravewriter approach is NOT contra-indicated -- in my humble opinion 
Off to read the rest of the thread now---
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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Willa
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| Posted: Sept 15 2005 at 11:58am | IP Logged
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tovlo4801 wrote:
The main reason I decided to do my own thing was because I had begun to see classical education as dictated by someone else for us as simply miserable.
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Richelle, do you mind me asking what was your classical education background? You mention that you didn't come to Laura Berquist or Ignatian until later, so I am wondering what resource originally burned you out?
Yes, I agree that we can all differ on what works for us. For example, the Well Trained Mind -- some people love it, some people are quite threatened by it or try it and find it burns them out. Me, I read TWTM when I was in San Francisco and it worked great for me becaause there was no illusion there that I could do it all -- I picked and chose what would help us in our situation, and it allowed my then -8th grader to work independently without resorting very much to textbooks or workbooks, over-use of which always burn us out fast.
But when I've tried to use it since I get trapped in all the organization and it falls flat. So I usually don't use that method.
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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tovlo4801
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Willa,
We began homeschooling with St. Thomas Aquinas Academy. I want to be very clear that I think it's a really great program. They were probably not thoroughly classical. I think they refer to themselves as classical unit study.
I'm sitting here trying to put into words what threw me off from classical education. It wasn't really STAA. They were always very clear about being flexible and doing what works. Yet, I always felt tied to the Voyages in English book even when it seemed like an endless unnecessary exercise. Or tied to the Famous Men of Rome guide book when the spontaneous discussions I would have with Nick probably would have been much better.
I didn't make the education I was providing my children my own. I was intimidated by my own lack of expertise and just stuck meticulously to the plan for fear of missing something important by veering. I began to question the efficacy of it all as I saw my dreams of homeschooling wither with drudgery of overflowing busywork. I began to dig around to figure out what was really essential to a classical education so that I could loosen my grip on others expertise and try to find a path that would work for our family. It was in that digging that I kept running up against the supposedly natural stages of learning that just didn't seem natural to my son at all. He was supposedly in the grammar stage and none of that clicked at all. I was afraid to move forward because what about all that necessary groundwork he was missing?
I wonder, though, if part of the problem was my lack of expertise. Classical education seems to rely on an experienced guide to lead the child to the desired goal. I questioned my ability to do that and just stuck to the plan. When my son would question something the plan said to do and I didn't really see the point either, I'd just say, "I don't know, but we're supposed to do it so we're going to do it."
I liked how the Ignatian booklet described the prelection starting with the excitement of the teacher. I think that perhaps I need to let go of my insecurity and recognize that even if my expertise is less than a more classically educated person, and therefore what I can offer to my children less, the education will still be better if I step away from the rote movements through someone else's path and instead share my own excitement for the material. Even if what I can offer to a discussion of history is less than what Laura Berquist could offer, it will still be better than pushing my son through the hoops of what FMR says he should get from that period of history.
I guess I'm kind of coming to a middle point where perhaps the ideas within a classical education can be met by a potentially lower level of expertise, but a sincere love and desire for knowledge to be shared with my son. Exploring unschooling helped me shed some chains of insecurity about lack of expertise and start to see education as a shared journey of love WITH my children. Instead of me cracking the whip on some slave ship of what we should do, while missing all the beautiful scenery around us, I'm hoping to move toward being a guide as we take in together all that is out there to be explored and also to let my son take the role of guide and show me what he sees too.
Does that make sense? I kind of lost your original question in there, but the question led me to think about where my reservations about classical education originated from. I was from the beginning attracted to classical education and it's still there for me, but I think maybe I'm more attracted to a deep understanding of the thoughts of those who've been before rather than a particular method of education. I accept that the method is important to truly understanding those thoughts, but I'm not convinced there isn't still a lot of excess in classical education as practiced today that is not truly essential in properly understanding those thoughts.
I don't know if I'm making any sense. Sorry. I hope someone can make something out of this.
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tovlo4801
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| Posted: Sept 15 2005 at 5:09pm | IP Logged
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WJFR wrote:
But I was just rereading the Ignatian booklet yesterday and it says about writing:
"The Ignatian method of training in expression does not consist in a formal study of precepts by definition and disquition. The measure of competence is not the ability to repeate textbook statements and rules, but to write correctly and effectively. The Ignatian method of language teaching is functional.
"To remember the rule of grammar is less important than to understand and apply it in writing and speaking. Indeed, the rule is found in the model and reproduced in the written task. Thus there is an intimate connection between the study of grammar, author and composition."
Yes, then it does go on to talk about starting from the ground up as you mentioned, but I think that what I've quoted above is the primary goal, so the Bravewriter approach is NOT contra-indicated -- in my humble opinion |
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Willa,
Thanks for your humble opinion! I did read that part too and liked what it said, but in my sort of naturally negative way I fixated on the second part. 
I'm glad you see this section as the primary idea. I really do like this book and what it says about education so much! It just feels so right.
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BrendaPeter
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tovlo4801 wrote:
I really wonder how much classical fitting a family or not is learning styles and temperment. All the classical information says that memorizing is fun (?!?!) for kids. So completely NOT my experience. It was TORTURE for all involved. I don't know if this was actually in the Ignatian education booklet or if I just thought this myself as I read, but I think we could try it again but this time letting my son choose what he'd like to memorize and making it a tiny, tiny part of school. Letting him direct the game. I can see the benefit to exercise of memory. I understand that it is wise to choose things to memorize that are of value. Yet, I guess for our family, I think there is a quite broad range of valuable things that could be tapped to work on memory with. I'm not going to let myself feel trapped in a torture game with my son. I want to be rather flexible about what I allow as worthwhile to memorize and not be too overly strict about it.
Baltimore Cathechism for example. First year homeschooling we tried to memorize it. We learned a great deal and really enjoyed the catechism, but most of our enjoyment came from discussing the ideas together, looking up scripture, etc. I think he learned best that way. It probably would have been wonderful if he could have memorized the hooks for the future, but it was difficult and painful. Frankly I don't think he remembers anything we shed so much blood trying to get into his head. He stutters, so verbal memorization work took 20 minutes for what would take a normal child 5. Writing is tedious for him, so copying to memorize was awful as well. I just didn't know what to do and honestly didn't even see the point anymore. I think he has a really good grasp of the concepts in the catechism and I don't believe memorizing was truly a necessary thing. |
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Wow!! I know, I know, I know.... I hit that wall too, probably about 2 years ago. Was ready to throw out the classical baby with the bathwater! That's why I'm here. I discovered the 4reallearning website & learned to let go of things. I had always been attracted the ideas of CM and had read Karen Andreola's book. It all seemed so unrealistic though - I didn't know how to make it work. Reading "Real Learning" affirmed THAT was the better direction to go in. In the end, I came full circle and was able to appreciate some of those classical ideas. I also discovered that there was alot about the classicul curriculum that worked for us & that we were comfortable with. I think the key was to not let the curriculum control our home.
In response to your comments I'll try to give you some specifics in terms of memorization. My oldest is an auditory learner so he does very well with memorization. My 2nd son is a visual learner so memorization is tougher for him, therefore the standards are lower. Since we technically have
4 dc in school, I do several things one-room schoolhouse style. Besides being more efficient, I think that we're able to foster habits better this way. Memorizing poetry is something we (all) do. We love the poems of Robert Louis Stevenson. Even our extended family have memorized some of the poems from the kids' numerous recitations. Every few days we recite old poems to keep them fresh. We listen frequently to "a child's garden of songs" by Ted Jacobs which is a compilation of Stevenson's poetry set to lovely music.
I totally agree with you about the Baltimore Catechism. We love it. We love reading it & discussing it. We memorize it - not "cold" but in general. We go to a local friary that gives out prizes when kids answer catechism questions correctly - that's a nice motivation . That said, the fact that your son understands it is WONDERFUL and most important. Blood shedding is unnecessary ! I'm sorry, I couldn't resist... If you're learning any foreign language, memorization will be necessary anyway.
Last thoughts - boys are sooooo different than girls. I cannot emphasize that enough. And adolescence brings on big changes - but that's another thread. It sounds like you're very tuned into your son which is fantastic.
When I was re-evaluating what we were doing one of the most helpful books I read was about the Colfax family. I'm not sure of the title but I got the book at the library. It was mostly about their homesteading experiences as they raised and homeschooled their sons, a few of who went on to Harvard. Very eye-opening...
Hope at least some of this helps!
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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BrendaPeter
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ALmom wrote:
I really think I am diverging, but I guess I wonder if the Ignatian method is only for the quick students or does it really help everyone? It seems to be based on certain ideas about how learning takes place and those ring true to me - but we just haven't been able to find anything that seems to really work for us. I think a lot has to be that somehow I am failing our children. Every philosophy that rings true to me, involves a lot of time and ability on the part of the teacher. I'm struggling to find out how to do it.
Janet
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Dear Janet,
I've read many of your posts & have always been so impressed with your knowledge of curriculum & how in tune you are with your children. I don't see you as failing your children at all! I have a friend whose daughter also has a vision problem. The 1st time she tried homeschooling, the vision problem put her over the edge & she ended up putting her daughter into (Catholic) school. And that was just with one of her children! You have your hands full, to say the least!
Homeschooling a large family (especially when the children have some above-average needs) is extremely challenging. For me, it has been perhaps the biggest challenge of my life. As you said, many of these methods sound wonderful but then there's this major thing called "REALITY"! And therein lies the challenge... Like you, I struggled with "how" to do it for a very long time. We're in our 7th year of homeschooling & things have finally come together (much thanks to many of the women here). For me though, the bottom line was and is prayer. I truly cannot do it without supernatural help. I remember hearing Elizabeth say on one of her NACHE tapes "and then bring it all to the foot of the Cross." I believe that is the answer.
Sorry for digressing...
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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tovlo4801
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Brenda,
Thanks! I appreciate the specific memorization hints. We haven't done any foreign language yet, but this year we were planning to start some latin. Thanks for reminding me that memorization will need to be a part of that.
I like idea of choral recitation. (at least I think that's what you were describing?) At any rate, that just might work nicely. My son doesn't stutter when he recites or sings chorally. Weird quirk of stuttering. The delayed feedback of other voices stops the stutter. So if we all learn the same thing together and recite it orally together he won't stutter and we'll all be working on something together.
I also like the idea of using music to memorize. My son sometimes rebels if the music is corny, but if it's beautiful and well-done he really does remember it. That might be helpful with Latin too? Any good musical latin cd's to recommend?
Anyway, thanks for the support and advice!
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Willa
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Brenda,
I was just rereading the Colfaxes book Homeschooling for Excellence and yes, I agree it's very helpful, perhaps partly because they were just too BUSY for too much angst about how to do things? So that helps me realize it's not such a super-complicated thing, to give your kids a good education. One other thing that struck me was that their kids could do formal academics just seasonally, for a couple of hours a day, and still do so well.
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Willa
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Willa
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Oh, and the other Colfax book is Hard Times in Paradise -- I just read that one too -- maybe it's the one you are referring to, Brenda?
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Willa
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BrendaPeter
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WJFR wrote:
| Oh, and the other Colfax book is Hard Times in Paradise -- I just read that one too -- maybe it's the one you are referring to, Brenda? |
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Thanks Willa! That's it!!
LOL about "too busy for too much angst" - that seems to work for us! (btw - did I mention that I changed 5 poopy diapers yesterday.... !)...
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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ALmom
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Richelle, Willa,
Thank you both for your posts. They are immensely helpful to me in sorting through some of my angst and discouragement.
Richelle, you mentioned that one of your hesitations with classical was that it presumes a thouroughly inspired and prepared teacher and lack of confidence kept you tied to a particular plan. That is a perfect description of me right now. I know the quantity of work is creating stress, but its hard for me to know which elements to drop/modify. I am beginning to get bold and ask the Kolbe proctors, sometimes in a stressed out, teary meltdown on the phone and I have always found that they have helped guide me rather than tell me what to do. The more failures we have, the more I know which questions to ask.
Still, I am neither an inspired teacher (I hardly have energy to even pursue what I like though I do read) and I certainly don't have expertise in very many subject areas. Right now my goal is finding a comfortable set of requireds to make sure we do cover some sort of basics and that we have plenty of rest, prayer, relaxation and time to ponder and be with one another.
That being said, I have come to try to accept that I have no background whatsoever in ancient languages, have difficulty reading epics or any kind of poetry and flounder in a lot of areas. I am not an ideal teacher according to the Ignatian philosophy except in the area of really loving the children. I cannot give my children the same kind of education that many of the ladies on this forum can provide for their own because at the moment I have neither the skills nor the free time to develop them. But I find this true of any of the attractive philosophies of education - they require a thouroughly inspired teacher with lots of knowledge!
That being said, I want them to have the best that I can possibly offer and instinctually I am very attracted to Ignatian with a CM flair. Our goals in homeschooling were spiritual ones coupled with a desire to help our children do more than simply memorize the latest set of assumptions and information coming out of the secular world. We wanted them to think about claims, to examine ideas, look at assumptions underlying what was being presented, to think, to reason, to ponder. We wanted them to be exposed to really good literature, including Catholic literature. We also wanted them to see learning as life-long, well beyond the college or high school degree and would like it to be a delightful thing, if possible. Our goals haven't changed. How do I best do this since I do not "qualify" as a really great teacher by either CM or Ignatian and am totally unattracted to traditional and afraid of unschooling because of my own lack of organization, lack of knowledge of what to strew and the fact that our children will not pursue things on their own, for the most part, because vision/eye-hand make them naturally avoid close work for years (and if some level of writing/math isn't required, they get very frustrated because the mental/conceptual far outpaces the ability to express it). It has become very humbling to realize, I can only do what I can do - and leave the rest in other hands. I cannot attempt the impossible, it only leaves me frustrated, angry and a totally uncharitable mom. I have had to accept that for now, we utilize and modify a hodge podge trying to do the best we can. I really do believe that even if they only read and do some of the thought provoking papers on the Kolbe plan, coupled with relaxed time to pursue their own interests, they are getting a solid education and far better than anything I could provide without support. Because I cannot guide in discussion as much as other mom's can, I have to taylor what I expect in their answers. They may not understand the material as deeply as someone else, but they do have a foundation on which to build and since learning is life-long, there will be a lot of time to do the building. I am looking very closely at what other moms have said about combining folks together, and pondering posts from all the different threads. You all have so many great ideas and really challenge me to think. It helps me to "think aloud" through my posts and I sure appreciate your patience in letting me "think aloud" here. Perhaps that is why narration has always been difficult for me - I need to see things on paper and ponder and write in order to think. My dd is more auditory and would benefit immensely from the more oral discussions which I do with her as best I can, but must also supplement with other opportunities to ponder with a wider group of people - thus her more traditional British Lit class.
Willa, you always hit the nail right on the head with me. Prayer, Prayer, Prayer. Thanks for being so gentle and for the reminder that we cannot do it ourselves!
A funny aside - yesterday, so much got accomplished. What was different? We started with everyone together for prayer, and then I ran errands with 3yo in toe. By the time all the errands were done, it was 3:30 PM. When I came in, 6 yo and 8 yo were busily engaged with pattern blocks on the floor, 6yo had done all independent therapy work, 11yo and 13 yo were happily wrapping up their final assignments for the day and ready to go over work with me and 17 yo was very pleased with the amount of work done. They all agreed that 3 hours of uninterrupted quiet in the morning was really helpful. Now, I know I cannot leave all the dc unaccompanied during school hours on a regular basis, but things were much better with me tending to the toddler instead of worrying with the dc academics! The toddler carried on a non-stop conversation with me about all the trucks and trains we passed as we went about our errands and seemed to have a great time having mommy to himself! Very humbling to realize how little I am really needed since I don't have the skills anyways.
Janet
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Oops, I misread the post signature. Thanks, Brenda - it was your post about praying at the foot of the cross. You are all an awesome bunch!
I was wondering about lesson plans/Ignatian education and some of Richelle's and Brenda's questions about how they see their children not loving memorization, not following the same sequence in writing and me wondering which things in an Ignatian philosophy set of lesson plans to ditch. Perhaps we would all find our answers if we could get a real grasp of the purpose of each thing.
What is the purpose of memorization - is it to train the memory or to make sure there is some content with which to work in order to start analyzing or to develop a sense of precise formulation of expression? Perhaps there is something even deeper here - owning it at a deeper level because it is memorized.
If the purpose of memory work is just to develop memory, then whatever makes it palatable and in short chunks seems to me to be a perfectly legitimate substitution. It doesn't much matter, then, what you memorize. It could be useful information, phone #, poetry, etc. I have some children that memorize effortlessly and others that have difficulty in the area. Repetition helps one child, music helps another, etc. We use what works here and accept whatever memorization is a necessary part of our lives as the content.
If the purpose of the memory work is to develop details of events in order to have something from which to draw when analyzing an event then by all means ditch the lists and actively engage in lapbooking, real experiences - whatever makes the events come alive and stick for that child. I, personally, don't like giving my children lists of names and dates and events to memorize - we read biographies, make timelines, talk about sequence etc. until there are some important names, dates and events that stick as a framework for later analysis.
I can identify with what was said about memorizing the Baltimore Catechism. I found it difficult to see the point of it at first - other than to make sure the children had a very solid grasp of the truths of the faith - and that seemed doable in ways a lot less painless than memorization. I told the children, we weren't worried about word for word here, just meaning - but then you began to take apart the sentences and realize that they are crafted precisely and leaving a few words out does not express the truth quite as accurately. We ended up memorizing a lot word for word because the meaning was there - but could not do it with every one all at once, so we begin to talk about them, get the gist of what they are saying and try to make it our own. The process of memorization, though painful, helped us to gain a better understanding. This is not to say that every one of our children have memorized the same things. My child who has extreme difficulty with memorization cannot learn 10 question and answers in a school year. It might take him a month or more to memorize prayers that we pray together as a family every night. I think this variety is also a part of the Ignatian method as you have to be aware of the child and the child's abilities - challenging them, but not frustrating them. It is the goal of realizing how precise those answers are, and being able to know the Faith well enough to answer with precision. But this does not have to be done all at once. My children will not have the entire Baltimore Catechism memorized before they leave our hs (and neither will I) but we know it's value and can continue to plug away in chunks that are doable and one day we will see face to face. I see this as a process. Someone said prayer - I think this is what will let us know what is the correct amount of memory work here for our family and for each child in it. I look at learning the Latin prayers in the same way - a little at a time. Enough to challenge but not frustrate. It also doesn't mean we aren't gentle. I don't have to give memory tests and mark them all up in red. It can be done slowly, gently without it seeming to be a test - a sort of discussion drawing out greater and greater precision until you see it grasped. Patience is developed in the teacher in the process, right?
But I also wonder if there is something else about memorization - something deeper that explains why it is emphasized in the classical method and in the Ignatian. I was not required to memorize much as a child - but there are 2 things I did memorize 1)Psalm 23 - in second grade. I memorized it and was required to recite it before the class. I remember the pressure of repeating and repeating it aloud so I wouldn't embarrass myself. I went cold before the class and forgot every bit of it at the time but when I was older and really hurting - it was the Psalm that came back to me. No other version strikes me quite the way or with as much power as the one I memorized.
2) I read Little Women so many times and memorized Jo's poem to Beth because it expressed me so well. I really identified with Jo. That poem still makes me cry and feel something I cannot really express.
I read about Vietnam veterans who spent 8 years in captivity seperated from their families and often forced to spend years in isolation, tortured by the communist captors in an attempt to break them. I met one of these men when I was in college. He spoke of the real lifeline those memorized things were in life as a POW. God and the memorized prayers, Bible verses, songs, poetry, catechism - those are what preserved his sanity. Grace builds on nature.
This last area is the area I really ponder. We have not done a tremendous amount of memorization, but I feel there is something missing without it, something at a deep level. If we should memorize something at this level, what should it be? It must be true, good and holy. If I am looking at a set of lesson plans, what will speak to the child's soul and be a source of comfort for him/her in old age, in adversity, in sorrow and suffering. What will strengthen the child against temptation because it will pop into his/her head just at the right moment through the intercession of his guardian angel but built on those real things that were formed in his nature in childhood. Certainly, I don't have to be tied to someone's lesson plan on what to memorize here - but the catechism does come to mind, as does Scripture, poetry, profound statements from literature and the saints. I like CHC little memory quotes here as they are short and sweet and become the little, short prayers of the day. I too was put off by some of what I saw in classical - endless lists to memorize. In classical education, imo, we are adapting the things that were good from pagan pedagogy but we have to remember that what pagans valued and what Christians value are not necessarily the same and substitute accordingly. I do not feel qualified to do this but, I think this is what Ignatius did and Kolbe has tried to implement in their lesson plans. (This is just my own opinion so you more knowledgeable folks, correct me if I'm wrong, because I really believe that understanding the purpose that is trying to be achieved is important to wise substitutions and modifications. I think that these kinds of adjustments to fit the child were a part of these educational philosophers, unlike other philosophers (ie Dewey whose philosophy our current ps system is based on and which was designed simply to make students into productive, contributing members of the state).
I have diverged somewhat, but memorization does seem to be something of a deeper level of the soul. We are not addressing this aspect of memorization in our own hs family right now as I think we should. Some of it is creating that atrium where these things can really speak to our souls - that is the first motivation for memorizing them. A lot of you moms have shared wonderful ideas about copy books where the child keeps favorite memorized passages. Isn't that what this part of memorization is all about. But one child may memorize everything in the Baltimore catechism, long passages from Shakespeare, many Bible passages and poems. Another child may memorize shorter ejaculations from the saints, a short poem, some Bible passages and some of the Baltimore catechism according to his/her abiltiy. Of course, as we stretch, so do our abilities so again we can continue this through a lifetime.
I was also pondering about the questions on writing as that too relates to my question "which things in the lesson plans do I modify or ditch?" What is the purpose of the writing assignment. Ignatius philosophy speaks of engaging the student to actively be involved in learning - discussion, projects, oral presentations, written essays are all a part of actively engaging the mind.
I think that there must be layers of purpose in different assignments. One is simply a means of active involvement. We write because it is a way to organize our thoughts, begin to analyze and draw conclusions and to express this to others. Certainly, we can process and engage in the subject at hand using many other techniques - lots that are shared on this board. For the purpose of engaging in the subject matter, any activity that involves the student would imo be reasonably substituted.
If the purpose of the writing is to fine tune our ability to express ourselves, then, by all means substitute a topic that is the child's passion. Their writing will be better, in this case. Any written assignment can be used as a source to review grammar, spelling and punctuation without doing tons of workbook type exercises and I think that is all consistent with Ignatian/classical.
Again, I wonder if that is all there is to writing or is there something else that the classical approach tries to narrow in on. The process of writing in a content area is certainly a very efficient means of fine tuning observation, logical thinking, inferring connections and precision of expression. It in some way, teaches the student how to think.
I am beginning to think that doing one paper very, very well for the last purpose is better than missing the point and cranking out too many papers with insufficient proof, etc. I think this is what Ignatius had in mind - doing all to the very best teaches thinking and character at the same time. Perhaps the writing was used for all the purposes, but it is the last that is most essential in my mind and one reason we cannot entirely ditch content area writing.
Perhaps, what I need to be able to do is ask myself everytime I make an assignment "What am I expecting the child to gain from this assignment?" "Is this the best way to accomplish these goals?" I certainly don't have the time and neither do my children to engage in busy work. I think this is all consistent with the Ignatian/classical as the teacher was also to be thinking and engaged in the subject at hand as a mentor for the student. I may not be able to have the great knowledge of the subject areas that I would like, but I can still mentor at some level.
This is far too long now, and somewhat rambling  but hopefully these ponderings will contribute something to you guys who have given so much to me.
Janet
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tovlo4801
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Janet,
It contributed a lot to me! Thank you for your thoughts. You make a lot of sense. I think a lot about what the point is to various educational pursuits. I'm insecure about that too, though and wonder if I see the whole point. I guess I've just gotten to a place (at least for the moment ) where I've just recognized my limitations to analyze everything. I've just got to do for a while. (That's hard for me. As I read these posts I'm tempted to jump in, analyze and question my approach. Then I remind myself that I need to just step back for a while and not worry if I'm doing it perfectly, but just do it.)
I think everything you said makes a lot of sense. One thought about your comments on memorizing. I think you make a very valid point about religious memorization being valuable to draw on. (BTW I agree about the careful crafting of the catechism statements. They are hard to paraphrase without missing something.) I love the Anima Christi. Everytime I recieve Jesus in the Eucharist I return to kneel and want to say it. I don't have it memorized, so I just recall pieces of it that I can and hope God knows my intention. I want desperately to just have it there. I WANT to memorize it. I agree that it is valuable.
I think you hit on a key to memorization for me. Do it to the level of ability for the child. That was probably my mistake. I tried to work through the Catechism according to the schedule, basically 5-10 statements a week. That was simply too much for my son. There was no way we would memorize the whole thing in one year, yet it was in the plan so I figured it must be possible. We burnt out because we didn't respect the reality of our abilities. I agree about Ignatian education taking that into consideration. What I gathered from the booklet seemed to support this. I am so glad that I read that booklet before beginning this school year. I am also so glad that I've been able to chat with you guys to sort some things out.
We're going to try reciting a poem to memorize next week. I found a website with short, easily memorized poems and I'm going to ask my son what poem he wants to memorize. Then we'll all just spend a minute or two each day reciting pieces of it until we own it. I don't care how long it takes. I found a psalm that I've fallen in love with. Maybe I'll suggest we all try to memorize that next. 
Thanks again for all your thoughts!
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Willa
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Janet, that was a truly excellent post  Great point about reflecting on the purpose of the assignments. Also, I share your struggles with trying to "do it all" with special needs, a less than great education of my own, etc etc.
My special needs situation is less complex than yours. My delayed child is not really school age yet and so quite honestly, does not take much more time in the day than my toddler -- which is, as you know, quite a LOT of time but mostly informal, needs-based, not intensively academic time. So there is a difference there.
Like Brenda, I applaud all you do. I think you must have much higher standards for yourself than I do for myself, honestly. When you describe your homeschool and your kids, I'm always truly amazed how well you know them, how much you are doing, and how humble you are about all that!
Absolutely, there is a purpose to all these "techniques". You mentioned that doing a few things very well is better than doing a lot of things sort of OK. That's something I'm trying to internalize too. Charlotte Mason called it the "habit of perfection" and Ignatian philosophy calls it "much, not many".
Ignatian philosophy also has another concept that sort of ties in -- the concept of lectio cursiva and lectio statataria. Lectio cursiva is a sort of swift survey or overview, while lectio statataria is sort of a deeper, more "whole" or comprehensive treatment. I've used this in many ways in my homeschool. One example is history -- I often have my children read an interesting overview of a time period either before, during, or after a deeper study of a specific time period. So the overview gives them the "big picture" and the closer study of a particular time by reading biographies, historical fiction etc shows them the "detail" or "focus."
I see that the homeschool gives us a chance to do this informally, in an even broader way than year by year or subject by subject. Hard to explain... Laura Berquist seems to use the concept in her MODG syllabi. So one year the syllabus might focus on science and the compositions for that year are largely focused on science. Another year, the main "engine" driving the whole syllabus is history, so religion and composition are focused on the historical time period being studied. People do this with unit studies, but unit studies CAN sometimes feel like a trap too -- always the close-up, never the big picture.
Now to look back at what you were originally saying about "doing it all"-- AH I knew I was trying to make a point here! In some ways, I don't think you HAVE to or that it would even be desirable. In one of the Ignatian books I read, it said that the teacher in a subject was obligated to rewrite his lesson plans every single year. That was because it was acknowledged that THIS particular class, every year, is unique, and that the teacher HIMSELF, every year, was a new teacher, because he was older, hopefully wiser, etc. In other words, the Ignatian method emphasized the "dynamics" of the "teacher/learner/body of knowledge" situation, not just a static body of knowledge or even a method. ... a constant development and reassessment which required continuous humility and flexibility.
As a teacher, you can do that lectio cursiva/lectio statataria thing by focusing on the needs of your kids, yourself, the homeschool, in certain things in depth and passing more lightly over the less essential things. The "close treatment" gives the children a model that they can transfer to other situation -- in the long run, it gives them tools and models for further lifelong learning.
I know, because I've been there, that it SOUNDS like a recipe for uncertainty. However, I do think there is a strong thread of teaching "philosophy" that this humility is a good thing. Charlotte Mason says that a "method" should never be reduced to a "system"; religious thinking says that following the principles of "law" should never become "legalism"; Ignatian philosophy says that a teacher who becomes so expert in his field that he is inflexible and unresponsive to his class, is not understanding what it means to be a teacher. So our responsiveness and our striving to understand the essential "mystery" in the hearts of our children, is a GOOD thing, even though it's continually a sort of wound in our hearts, that it's so important to get it right but we can't just "get it right" and be done with it.
Does that make ANY sense?
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Willa
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Ignatian education
