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KathrynTherese
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I'm having a bit of a rude awakening with my dd16. Like, hello; we've been talking and monitoring and discussing and limiting and going out for coffee and sharpening the rules and STILL we find that she is finding trouble with her good homeschool friends.
I can't get into this kid's head, because she is so unlike me. I keep thinking she will snap out of it because I cannot believe this is what she really is, it seems like just a phase.
I pray I am right. In the interim, I am wondering if anyone knows of a site that will quickly allow me to check on some of the music she listens to. Like someplace I can just plug in the name of a band and I can get a thumbs-up or thumbs-down? She is VERY into music, and frankly I find some of it disturbing. But some of it, while I find it hard to listen to, is at least Christian, so the lyrics are safe (I'm thinking MxPx or POD). Other bands she has brought into this house via iTunes or friends have been banned from the premises (Good Charlotte, Papa Roach). She is almost 17, so I cannot monitor her every second, and I have to pick my battles.
I read the posts about "wishing I didn't know" and wondering about how much to share with other parents, and I sympathize completely with all those comments. It is difficult to see our teens getting caught up in the wrong thought processes, and adopting an erroneous worldview, and it is partly hard to believe, as they have such a firm foundation. I have been blessed in that I have not experienced a backlash from the parents to whom I have spoken, but there was the possibility of some serious issues going on.
Our pastor, who knows our family very well and is often in our home, was shocked by a recent event with this teen. He said to me later (after she had gone to confession to him and I had told him my version of the story), "Wow. She is a good actress. I would never have known this was going on, but I heard it with my own ears." And that's pretty much the reaction of everyone - around certain people, she acts fine; with her friends she is someone else entirely. Maybe this is true of a lot of teens, especially the ones who have a need to be accepted by their peers, but I don't get this one.
Forgive the rambling - it's a little chaotic here at the moment. Thanks in advance for your help!
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teachingmyown
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KathrynTherese,
I am right there with you, if that's any consolation.
You can go to http://www.pluggedinonline.com/, it is the Focus on the Family site that evaluates the music, movies, video games, etc. that our kids are interested in.
Also, lyrics.com has the lyrics to most songs.
I, too, suffer over the decisions these kids make and am so puzzled why they are drawn to it.
You have my prayers.
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Molly
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KathrynTherese
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Thanks, Molly; somehow just sharing the load makes it lighter.
My pastor (we are SO blessed to have a truly holy pastor!), when I sort of cringed at having to monitor my daughter and her friends - this, before we really knew all that was going on - said emphatically, "You HAVE to. Original sin has ruined us. And let's face it - the world is a very different place than it was even 15 years ago. There is a lot more trouble to fall into a lot more quickly. There is just so much available at a teenager's fingertips." Amen to that. After that comment, I had no qualms about monitoring, spying, even looking in her room.
When she accused me of sneaking around and not leveling with her, I said, "Hey, I don't have to lie to you. I can do whatever I need to do. If I need to read your chat logs, I can, and I have. If I need to listen to you on the phone with your friends, I will. If I need to do a demolition on your room and get rid of whatever is objectionable, I can and I will. I'm still responsible for you." Well, I'm trying anyway.
Frustrating, though. It's so frustrating to break down that attitude. The really frustrating thing here is that we all thought she was too smart to act that dumb. We really thought she was becoming a mature young woman, ready and able to do the right thing. She has such natural leadership skills, but she seems to be the ringleader for something less than noble here. I pray she still is, and that this is just a sidetrack from the real her, but we've got some wrestling to do before that manifests itself, I'm afraid...
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Leonie
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I don't know if I can offer any help - but definitely can offer prayers.
We are, I suppose, kind of lax with music - so, yes, we listen to Good Charlotte. 
But we also discuss the lyrics, the image and so on.
I tend to be a bit relaxed in some areas and find this helps me to be more strict in other areas.
For example, we are strict about the no dating thing when under age 18 or older - and the boys have really taken that to heart. But it *has meant a lot of discussion.
I find I walk a fine line with my teens - and pray a lot. 
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Cay Gibson
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KathrynTherese,
My two older teens have told me when I make the comment how nice or sweet a teen is, "Yeah, they want you to think that, Mom." and sometimes they smirk.
"What do you mean by that?" I'll ask, knowing full well what they're saying.
And I am reassured that teenagers act and talk totally different around one another than they do around adults.
Didn't we all?
I guess I'm like Leonie in a lot of ways. My children have heard the music I listened to as a teen  and I laugh along with them. My teens think nothing of asking me to listen to a song with them and I'll tell them what I think of it and they laugh at me, but at least they "listen" to my opinion. And they know that hard rock, heavy metal and gothic are absolutely forbidden in this household.
Of course, our family likes country music and that's pretty safe. I said "pretty safe", not completely.
But we really have to pick our battles, as you said, KathrynTherese, and pray...pray without ceasing. And guide them and listen to them and not nag too much.
Like Leonie observed...it's such a thin, fine line and we must learn to walk it. Perhaps we can use the illustrated book Mirette on the High Wire by Emily Arnold McCully as a guide in raising our teens in the same way it was presented at a recent hs conference I went to and posted about: LEARN.
The connections I see here with teenagers would be:
1) Never let our eyes stray from the goal.
2) Keep your focus.
3) Don't have a defeated attitude around your teens. Teens admire strength and faith.
4) Education yourself.
5) Pursue help through the community (be it hs community, family community, church community, medical community, etc.)
6) Realize you'll never do it all.
7) Never give up on your teen.
8) Focus on keeping your child's heart.
I also posted this: Those Dynamite Teens if you're interested. HTH.
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KathrynTherese
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Well, Leonie, you seem to be doing ok, so your advice is welcome. Was I too hasty on the Good Charlotte?
I couldn't decipher some of this stuff, so out it went.
Again, frustrating. We allow a lot of freedom here (my family thinks maybe too much "creative expression" is allowed in our house). We *do talk. A lot. Every day. We have "coffee time" every day, which is just the two of us talking about whatever. We go out just the two of us. We talk about her friends, her music, her crushes (well, as much as you can talk with your mom about that), the family, her future, the realities of womanhood.
We talk and we encourage her and she seems to "get it." And then I realize she has like a split personality (what 16 yo doesn't?). She's sneaking around behind my back doing, saying, and listening to things that I could not have guessed. She is not doing drugs or drinking. Praise God. But the lack of sincerity is bad enough; the total disregard for what we've taught her and the bad attitude toward what is good is really disheartening.
The counselor (we haven't gone to him yet, but I've talked with him on the phone) asked a lot of very pointed questions, leading in the direction of something very wrong. Then he said, "Is she really into being 'cool'?" Ha! She's the coolest person she knows  and all her friends think so too. This clicked with him and he said, "I think we've got a bad case of 16-itis going on here. She may need a third party to help her to see things right, but I don't think she's in any immediate danger of actually hurting herself."
Well. That's. Great.
Meanwhile, I don't know what I'm doing... 
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KathrynTherese
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Yes, Cay, you are right - focus on keeping our child's heart. And this is what is really painful right now, I think. I was really enjoying her company. But she was breaking a lot of rules behind my back.
Not just the music (we actually allow some pretty heavy stuff in this house, because we DON'T want her to have to sneak around and listen to it elsewhere! But she STILL listened to unacceptable stuff behind our backs), but the lying about where she was, about who she was with, about what she was doing.
And then, when confronted, creating a new story to cover up the real truth anyway. So the trust has been eroded over the last 2 years. She is also refusing to eat and cutting herself. This, while acting perfectly normal, with the exception of wanting to chat online too much. But that doesn't necessarily make you suspect something weird is going on. After all, I'm chatting online right now
Nothing has ever disturbed me more than seeing my name smeared in blood in my "good girl's" journal. As I said earlier, she is very good at hiding all this - even the pastor was dumbfounded. All those brains turning her into a criminal mastermind.
Ok, I'm thinking the worst here. But  I'm so confused right now. I can only hope that the fact that she still seems so innocent means that at the core she still is, and that this whole scene is just a tangent.
This counselor (a Catholic, who asked me, "Is she going to Confession and Communion?") made me feel somewhat better about this by explaining that sometimes teens do this to "keep up" with the miserable lives of their friends. We just don't make her miserable enough, and that doesn't fit the emo lifestyle. Her life is all cake and ice cream, so she has to create her own misery. He said that it often takes a third party to help these kids SEE.
That's my prayer.
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Leonie
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Thank you, Cay. I am so happy to see you recommend Covey's books - KathrynTherese, have you and your teen read The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Teens ? It is good for acknowledging "coolness" while also walking the fine line and working towards goals.
How much opportunity does your dd have to "sneak around your back", so to speak? I only ask because I think my teens' opportunites to do this are fairly limited - most of their activities are kind of chaperoned.
Now, to date ( as far as we know) we haven't had this behind our backs issue ( notice I said to date! ) but I think that if we did I would get past the talking and into the ultimatums or challenges. I know that sometimes dh and I do confront our teens and young adults with issues - we get to be honest and blunt and frank. Sometimes, this strength works better than our talks.
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Leonie
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KathrynTherese wrote:
We just don't make her miserable enough, and that doesn't fit the emo lifestyle. Her life is all cake and ice cream, so she has to create her own misery. He said that it often takes a third party to help these kids SEE.
That's my prayer.
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My son Jonathon (17) is into the emo/screamo music scene and plays in a homeschool emo band ( okay, I like some of My Chemical Romance, too. ).They write their own lyrics , which are good examples of their Christianity, btw.
But Jonathon is not into the lifestyle - yes, he wears black a lot ( not all the time) but it is a fun image - not a lifestyle thing. He is actually very into his Faith and says the rosary twice a day and goes to confession, is a young leader at youth group, works with disabled people, avoids a girl who "wants a relationship", etc . And he worries about influences on his younger brothers.
I write this to say that I can see that your dd likes emo - but is trying to find her "place." The not eating and the cutting would disturb me and so I think a third party - a counsellor - is good.
Maybe she'd feel good, too, knowing that other Catholic teens like emo without feeling the need to try to embrace the scene - so feel to share about my ds Jonathon.
I hope I haven't shared too much here - it is a kinda open forum and I worry you all will think I am a bad mum! Hope my sharing helps.
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JennGM
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KathyrnTherese,
Prayers for you and your daughter. I know you're doing all the right things and getting the right help. Not that I know much, but not eating and cutting are both control issues. Typically people that do these things feel like they have no control over their life. Controlling eating and cutting are areas where a person CAN control. I'm NOT saying you control her...she just may be feeling that way. I agree with Leonie, that a counselor would help in these areas.
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lapazfarm
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The cutting and eating issues would concern me the most as well. Those are some powerful signals, right there.
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KathrynTherese
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Leonie wrote:
My son Jonathon (17) is into the emo/screamo music scene and plays in a homeschool emo band ( okay, I like some of My Chemical Romance, too. ).They write their own lyrics , which are good examples of their Christianity, btw.
But Jonathon is not into the lifestyle - yes, he wears black a lot ( not all the time) but it is a fun image - not a lifestyle thing.
I write this to say that I can see that your dd likes emo - but is trying to find her "place." The not eating and the cutting would disturb me and so I think a third party - a counsellor - is good.
I hope I haven't shared too much here - it is a kinda open forum and I worry you all will think I am a bad mum! Hope my sharing helps. |
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Your sharing does help, Leonie, and if anyone should feel like they might be judged this evening, it’s me. Good Lord, I could not see this coming into our idyllic little family scene here. The few people who know about this about dropped their teeth, because it seems so out of our realm.
Let me say that Jenn stated the very reason we were so worried. And this “control” thing, or an inability to assertively express her feelings, were the directions the counselor was going with his questions. But she is very assertive, most of the time, and we don’t seem to be the problem as parents, according to him. That’s when the counselor switched gears and asked, “Is she really concerned with being ‘cool’?” His questions began to focus on her friends and her interests.
That’s when he said that she is probably NOT doing these things because she has some deep frustrations or needs that are not being met. Some kids just do these things because they’re 16 and their peers are doing them. As you said, Leonie, it's an image thing. Every 16yo has some issues to work through yet, and some of them get caught up in the fad.
If the fad was smoking, she’d be smoking. If it was beer, she’d be drinking beer. Praise God, it’s not drugs. But it’s still destructive behavior.
We were beside ourselves at first, thinking we had totally missed something profoundly wrong. But he made us feel like it is really not that. Of course, we need to get a grip on it, as it can become somewhat of an addictive habit. And she certainly needs an attitude adjustment (though she is very rarely defiant to our faces - she is really very charming). She’s just in with the wrong scene right now.
You guys are sooo patient with my ramblings and generous with your support here… And I have so ruined her chances of marrying any of your sons  Molto grazie~
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Cay Gibson
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KathrynTherese and all with teenagers,
I think we should all read Michael H. Brown's article today at Catholic Exchange:
Learning Lessons from Mel
The reality is that we are all human and, because of original sin, we are weak and susceptilbe to sin. Not one of us is better than the other and that includes parents with their teenagers. We are all striving to reach the prize God holds out to us.
Yes, even Mel Gibson.
If we were to count how many times we have fallen and had to get back up, well...I don't know about the rest of you, but I lost count of my falls a looooong time ago.
KathrynTherese, I'm not implying that you think you're better than your dd. Just wanted to cover that . I'm using it as a connection between this article about Mel Gibson and how we view the faults of our children. Mel Gibson has been put on a pedastal and has taken a nasty fall. We all know that God isn't done with him yet and there is hope where there is life.
As parents, we tend to worry more about our children's souls than that of our own. We want to keep them from making mistakes and getting hurt. We forget that through their suffering (and ours) God is cleansing them and using that suffering to bring them to the Cross. Well, perhaps we don't exactly forget but the Cross sure isn't a pretty place to be (as Mel Gibson showed us in The Passion .)
Your dd will get back squarely on her own two feet, KathrynTherese. She will. She's got good firm ground to plant her feet on. Perhaps God is having to carry her right now but, when she's back upright and walking along side of Him, she'll remember that Mom and Dad were the two people who stood on either side of her, took hold of an elbow, and helped pull her up.
Keep the faith.
"Meanwhile, none of us can judge: but for the grace of God can such as happened to Mel happen to anyone." ~ Michael H. Brown
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Leonie
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KathrynTherese wrote:
That’s when he said that she is probably NOT doing these things because she has some deep frustrations or needs that are not being met. Some kids just do these things because they’re 16 and their peers are doing them. As you said, Leonie, it's an image thing. Every 16yo has some issues to work through yet, and some of them get caught up in the fad.
You guys are sooo patient with my ramblings and generous with your support here… And I have so ruined her chances of marrying any of your sons Molto grazie~ |
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I think your counsellor sounds excellent and really on the ball. I will say prayers - and thanks for understanding Jonathon! (who, by the way, would probably be a perfect emo marriage match for your dd. 
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KathrynTherese
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Cay Gibson wrote:
The reality is that we are all human and, because of original sin, we are weak and susceptilbe to sin. Not one of us is better than the other and that includes parents with their teenagers. We are all striving to reach the prize God holds out to us. ...
Your dd will get back squarely on her own two feet, KathrynTherese. She will. She's got good firm ground to plant her feet on. Perhaps God is having to carry her right now but, when she's back upright and walking along side of Him, she'll remember that Mom and Dad were the two people who stood on either side of her, took hold of an elbow, and helped pull her up.
Keep the faith.
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You are right, Cay. All will be well. Eventually.
I think part of our reaction is shock. As I said, we have a pretty open dialogue in this house; we freely converse, share our opinions openly, we give parameters and explain the reasons for those parameters. We monitor what comes in and try to know the families we allow our children to associate with. Our kids know our minds on every pertinent issue.
And yet, within these good Catholic homeschooling families (including our own), there is offensive language, offensive music, offensive activity. And a sad self-absorption.
It is part of Clare’s personality to become totally involved in whatever she is doing – to completely immerse herself and become very good at knowing every nuance and even making improvements on the way things are.
This was fine when she was immersing herself in her violin or her art (which she still does, though her art has become a bit dark, as evidenced by the new book cover she just created for the teen Way of the Cross), but it is really not ok when she immerses herself in some disturbing sub-culture that has very little to do with what is good and true. So she was attracted to something “cool” and became the most-emo of her friends, except that we won’t let her dye her hair or pierce anything but her earlobes! Parents are so oppressive…
But she knows how to be the good girl I think she is, when she is around the good girls, so that she does not offend them. And around family, she is almost as upbeat and kind as ever; her slight “pulling away” everyone chalked up to adolescence.
She has not turned away from us yet – she is only hiding some things from us. I really don’t think it’s who she is, and saying all this “out loud” has made me feel much better. All will be well. We’ve just got to wrestle some attitude and have some more d&m’s (that’s our short for “deep and meaningfuls”).
And if your son is strong enough to stand up against Clare’s uber-coolness and point her in the right direction, Leonie, maybe they should email. Well, when Clare is allowed back on the Internet, that is. Which could be 2008
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JennGM
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KathrynTherese wrote:
It is part of Clare’s personality to become totally involved in whatever she is doing – to completely immerse herself and become very good at knowing every nuance and even making improvements on the way things are.
This was fine when she was immersing herself in her violin or her art (which she still does, though her art has become a bit dark, as evidenced by the new book cover she just created for the teen Way of the Cross), but it is really not ok when she immerses herself in some disturbing sub-culture that has very little to do with what is good and true. So she was attracted to something “cool” and became the most-emo of her friends, except that we won’t let her dye her hair or pierce anything but her earlobes! Parents are so oppressive…
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KathrynTherese,
I had this thought originally, but wasn't going to post it, until you wrote that your daughter's tendency was to immerse herself into whatever her interest. I don't have teenagers, so maybe my opinion would change, but my reaction would be back to your original reason for posting -- cutting back on her music. It sounds like she has a deep musical and artistic soul (and knowing how her mother is so poetic and deep, it's not surprising).
But the emo music could have some pull...not just lyrics, but the music itself...on your daughter to keep on this behavior. I'm not saying the music is evil in itself...it just affects people in different ways, and different levels. It would be a red flag in my eyes if my son starting dressing like the music he listens to. Dh and I have discussed the Goth look and WWWD if that situation arises.
Is it just a teenager syndrome that they reflect the music/bands they listen to? I was like Libby and listened to Classical music, plus big bands, some jazz, musicals in my teenager years. I did add various rock music (which was forbidden at home) as I grew older...a late rebellion.... But I never dressed the part, and never understood those who did.
Anyway, just rambling....your instincts to have a tighter rein on the music would be mine. It doesn't seem to bring her to the Light.
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Bridget
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KathrynTherese wrote:
You guys are sooo patient with my ramblings and generous with your support here… And I have so ruined her chances of marrying any of your sons Molto grazie~
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I think very few of our teens are going to make it through unscathed and without doing soemthings they will regret later.
Your daughter will come out on the other side of this stronger, purer of heart and more devout.
i am soooo grateful that you moms going through the tough stuff are willing to share your trials. it helps to strengthen and direct those of us heading into those years. Also we can pray for your children and that is powerful.
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KathrynTherese
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Well, Jenn, your thought was right on.
How she got sucked into this behind our backs (though we do allow music like Switchfoot and Relient K and more, but not around the littles) is a frustrating question. In the house, we listen to a lot of Classical and Celtic and Christian pop and some light jazzy instrumental stuff. James Taylor is about as rough as we get.
But something appealed to her. Now I have taken the liberty of going to her Music file on the computer and simply deleting the junk. Linkin Park is junk. So is Papa Roach. There is no redeeming quality to that. And I DO think that music has a profound effect on us.
She doesn't know this yet, as she is busy with Orchestra Camp all week. The last time she got into computer troubles, I sat next to her and made her delete everything while I talked her through it, including some MySpace and Xanga accounts. This time, I didn't want to hear the arguing, so I did it myself. We have always reserved the right as parents to discard objectionable things that enter the house - books, movies, music, clothes, whatever. I have never had to use this right until yesterday.
I hope I never have to use it again.
Does anyone know of some books I can put on her school reading list - something to re-inspire and re-focus her? And can anyone tell me whether they prefer Bonacci to Jason Evert?
You ladies are good friends to have. Thanks for letting me think this through "out loud" and get my head cleared.
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| Posted: Aug 08 2006 at 11:34am | IP Logged
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Bridget wrote:
i am soooo grateful that you moms going through the tough stuff are willing to share your trials. it helps to strengthen and direct those of us heading into those years. Also we can pray for your children and that is powerful. |
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Me, too. Thank you so much for sharing with us and allowing us to pray for your daughter. I admire you immensely for the great job you are doing loving and parenting your daughter...
Be assured of our prayers for your daughter and your entire family, esp. during our daily Rosary...
__________________
God Bless,
Jennifer in TX
wife to Bill, mom to six here on earth and eight in heaven.
Let the Little Ones Come
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JennGM
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17702
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| Posted: Aug 08 2006 at 12:46pm | IP Logged
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KathrynTherese wrote:
Well, Jenn, your thought was right on.
How she got sucked into this behind our backs (though we do allow music like Switchfoot and Relient K and more, but not around the littles) is a frustrating question. In the house, we listen to a lot of Classical and Celtic and Christian pop and some light jazzy instrumental stuff. James Taylor is about as rough as we get.
But something appealed to her. Now I have taken the liberty of going to her Music file on the computer and simply deleting the junk. Linkin Park is junk. So is Papa Roach. There is no redeeming quality to that. And I DO think that music has a profound effect on us. |
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I was just doing some quick searching on emo music, and it seems the anorexia look and cutting are part of this emo trend...very typical. Your counselor was good to see the difference that it wasn't control issues, but probably more copycat or peer stuff.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: music and Internet
