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Sarah in SC
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Dawnie wrote:
A woman who has had an abortion might find that statement painful--but it's true! Should we refrain from proclaiming the truth b/c it might be painful for people who aren't living it? I mean, people SHOULD feel uncomfortable when they're in a state of mortal sin. It's a mercy from God that moves us to repentence!
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I think there is a difference in speaking the truth and proclaiming the truth when you're dealing with topics of sin and mercy.
Somehow I don't think that we encourage those hurting women wrought by the guilt of abortion to seek help from programs like Rachel's Vineyard by making them more uncomfortable. I think they are touched by mercy and moved toward repentence.
Now that I think about it, I think the above is true for almost every sinful situation I can think of. I don't think I have ever felt motivated to repentence by someone speaking in judgment or as if they are more holy than I am.
There is great power in humility, I believe.
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Dawnie
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Sarah in SC wrote:
Somehow I don't think that we encourage those hurting women wrought by the guilt of abortion to seek help from programs like Rachel's Vineyard by making them more uncomfortable. I think they are touched by mercy and moved toward repentence.
Now that I think about it, I think the above is true for almost every sinful situation I can think of. I don't think I have ever felt motivated to repentence by someone speaking in judgment or as if they are more holy than I am.
There is great power in humility, I believe. |
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I doubt that anyone could accuse Mother Teresa of speaking in judgement or being "holier than thou." She often spoke of the great evil of abortion and contraception, AND she was a wonderful example of holiness to all of us.
Saying that certain behaviors are wrong is not the same as judging a person. Judging a person is trying to assign guilt, which only God can do. We can't know whether someone is going to hell or not for their sins--that depends on things that only God can know. We can and should judge behavior by objective standards of morality, which are given to us by our holy mother Church. We are doing our brothers and sisters a grave disservice if we do not speak up and say that certain things are wrong. Admonishing the sinner and informing the ignorant are both spiritual works of mercy. Of course, both should always be done with charity and backed up by the good example of our own lives.
Dawn
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Dawnie
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| Posted: June 28 2006 at 1:25am | IP Logged
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Dawnie wrote:
| I've seen a bumper sticker here in the US which quotes Mother Teresa saying "It is a poverty that a child must die so that you may live as you wish." A woman who has had an abortion might find that statement painful--but it's true! Should we refrain from proclaiming the truth b/c it might be painful for people who aren't living it? I mean, people SHOULD feel uncomfortable when they're in a state of mortal sin. It's a mercy from God that moves us to repentence! |
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Is it bad manners to quote myself?  Seriously, after Sarah in SC's post, I wanted to clarify my thoughts a little. When I said that people *should* feel uncomfortable when they're in a state of mortal sin, I don't mean that we should be screaming stuff like "You're going to hell!" at them. I meant that I think the discomfort is a natural result of being in mortal sin, and I think that the discomfort is a *grace* that comes from the Lord.
A personal example: I was pregnant w/ our first baby *before* DH and I were married. I was not Catholic at the time (DH was), and we were hoping to have a quick ceremony in the Catholic Church. When we went to talk to his pastor about it, he told us that we'd have to wait at least 4 months, which was out of the question for me at that time. I wanted to get married before I started showing. I was also totally irrational. So, we asked if he could come to the ceremony at my church (which was Methodist) and participate in some way. He told us that, no, he couldn't b/c our marriage would be invalid and he could not participate in an invalid marriage ceremony. Of course, I was mad. What right did he have to tell me that our marriage would be invalid?? I was very uncomfortable during that conversation and every time I thought about it. Well, about a year later, after I had sincerely started to look into the Catholic Church, I realized, hey, he was right! Then, I realized how wrong it had been for us to marry outside the Church and I was sorry...really sorry. Fortunately, God is very very merciful and I was absolved of that sin and many others in my first Confession before entering the Church in November of 1999. (Oh, happy day!) The discomfort I initially felt was something that moved me toward the truth. It was a grace from God and now, I am so thankful for that priest who wouldn't witness our marriage! He didn't judge us--he told us the truth.
Wow, that was long and very personal. Anyway--I often think about what a great mercy it is that I can even know what is right and what is wrong. I don't think I would know if God hadn't written it Himself on my heart, given me the Ten Commandments, and given me the Church. I'd be in a pretty sorry state if I was left to my own desires w/ no guidance at all. I think that God is working *through* us when we speak up about what is right and what is wrong. He was working through the priest who wouldn't witness our marriage, and I think He works through us when we help to transmit the teachings of His church.
Dawn
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aussieannie
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The thread is moving into another issue and discussion.....and that's a great thing   it's sort of moving by the grace of God for a good reason to be sure and I am enjoying the feedback.
Dawn, it was great to hear your story, thank you for sharing it. What a journey, wisdom is aquired by it and it is evident! 
Sarah in SC wrote:
| I think they are touched by mercy and moved toward repentence. |
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Everything is variable, everyone different, the soft approach right for some the confronting approach for others. I suppose the only thing about bumper stickers and this is what had me wondering all along, everyone from all walks of life are reading it, I have no control over that and for some they will be inspired to change, some will say, Yahoo! I agree!, some though will find it so confronting that it hardens them in their sin and I don't particularly want to do that, so you need the wisdom of Solomon to know whether the benefits outweigh the risks, it is not quite the same as speaking to people you have weighed up briefly in your mind before you open your mouth. In the one Dawn shared I would say a definate yes because of who Mother Teresa WAS she speaks volumes just by what the whole world knows of her.
sarah SC wrote:
Now that I think about it, I think the above is true for almost every sinful situation I can think of. I don't think I have ever felt motivated to repentence by someone speaking in judgment or as if they are more holy than I am.
There is great power in humility, I believe. |
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You see the trouble can be....the people who say, 'we ought not judge' can sometimes (not often, not always etc.) but sometimes be judging those they say it to, or worse, use it as tool to stop the person from speaking a point worth making, because it either pricks their own conscience in some way or it is their purpose to stop others being inspired, edified or convicted by it.
Only God knows the heart - what we all should live by is..... 'but for the grace of God, go I' it should be in our hearts and minds and not always can that belief be known or detected by the people listening to them. It can often be detected if it is not there but a little harder to detect for sure, when it is.
This is the principle that we should live by, presented through this example (make believe one).....the children and their parents I live next door are leading a life that is contradictory to mine and I must protect my children from a lot of contact with them ( a judgement is made) but they could be 'greater' in the eyes of God than myself, I must not forget it. Firstly I do not know how they will end their earthly existance secondly and more importantly if I had the graces, lights and insights they have been given, I am sure I would be far, far worse than them! If they were given the graces, lights and insights that I have been given as a free gift from God, they would be sure to be far, far greater people than me and do more with the biblical 'talents' that the servant has received from the Master. Their 'one talent' at the end of life may be given back as 'five' my seemingly '5 talents' given, might only have been given back as 'ten', mine seems greater, but is it?
In our hearts, we should 'tremble' and wonder if we are really living up to all the graces given, rather than 'rest on our laurels' and gloat when looking at the weaker example seen clearly down the road. So whether it is discussing if 'abortion makes people treat children like commodities or not' or any other moral topic this same principle applies, we can still speak strongly with all truth and honesty, if we truly believe it and feel it has to be heard and we have not necessarily grown more proud by stating it.
I see this old saying, "but for the grace of God go I" like some sort of golden rule that we can apply to ourselves when we get 'weighed down' and 'muddled' over the ins and outs of when and how we should say something, how should we think etc, etc, basically it should convict or strengthen us when we go to open our mouths if we thought about it often enough!  These were thoughts dear to my father's heart, trouble is I fail him  , he was a greater person that I, but I wish to pass the legacy of his many words of wisdom onto my children and so we had this very discussion in the car the other day.
If we look at part of the 'magnificat' of Mary, Luke1:46-55 we read: "Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid" we know that Mary who carried the Christ Child obviously thought that if anyone had been given the graces she had received, would have done more with them then herself (her deep humility evident). God knew in truth this was not so, but the fact the she truly believed it, meant that, "He that is mighty, hath done great things to me". She is a wonderful example to imitate, she gives us a beautiful example to follow in our hearts, especially in this area!
Well I think that is my longest post ever and that is saying something, not particularly proud that it has gone on so long  if you have made it to this .
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Dawnie
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aussieannie wrote:
| I see this old saying, "but for the grace of God go I" like some sort of golden rule that we can apply to ourselves when we get 'weighed down' and 'muddled' over the ins and outs of when and how we should say something, how should we think etc, etc, basically it should convict or strengthen us when we go to open our mouths if we thought about it often enough! |
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So, true, Anne!
Speaking the truth can be such a complicated process...I often find it very hard to discern what I should say and what I shouldn't say when I'm speaking with someone one-on-one. As you said earlier, we need the wisdom of Solomon! I've been reflecting on the bumper sticker issue, and realized the same thing you did, that we're "speaking" to all kinds of people through our bumper sticker proclomations. In the case of abortion, I keep thinking about all the innocent children who are killed by abortion. Their voices have been silenced, but we can speak for them and defend their rights. And I think it is right that we do so.
You also mentioned that someone might become more hardened in their sin when seeing such a bumper sticker...I've been reflecting on this, too...of course, we don't want that to happen, but when it does, is that our responsibility, or the responsibility of the person who is hardening his heart? Certainly we don't want to be a stumbling block to our neighbor, but is that what we're doing in this case? It seems that proclaiming the truth is more of a stepping stone. But it is up to the person who hears it to accept or reject.
"You are the salt of the eart. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot. You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house. Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father." Matthew 5:13-16
There's another scripture verse I think is appropriate for this conversation, but I can't recall the chapter and verse...something like "whoever walks in darkness hates the light"...
Lots of great thoughts, Anne!
Dawn
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aussieannie
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dawnie wrote:
| You also mentioned that someone might become more hardened in their sin when seeing such a bumper sticker...I've been reflecting on this, too...of course, we don't want that to happen, but when it does, is that our responsibility, or the responsibility of the person who is hardening his heart? Certainly we don't want to be a stumbling block to our neighbor, but is that what we're doing in this case? It seems that proclaiming the truth is more of a stepping stone. But it is up to the person who hears it to accept or reject. |
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Very true, when I ponder more about it, I mean, it could harden them there and then and they be so incensed they never forget it, but how will that person feel about a lot of things 5-10 years down the track? They may have changed their beliefs and moral code completely by then, we just never, never know, the truth must be said, and unfortunately alot of people are allergic to truth.
'All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.' (Edmund Burke)
What a true statment.
Thank you Dawn, you've had me thinking on ALOT of things through these two threads.
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Dawnie
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Anne,
Yes, we never know what will happen in the future...
I like to think of a Catholic friend of mine who first told me what Catholics believe about Holy Communion. I thought he was nuts when he said that he actually believed that the bread and wine REALLY turned into Christ's body and blood. In fact, I told him he was crazy to believe that. God has a great sense of humor, b/c I had to eat those words! My friend probably thought I was hopeless after that conversation, but now, 10 years later, I'm Catholic too and I believe in the Eucharist just as strongly as he does! God is so good!
I like to think of 'proclaiming the truth' as planting a seed. Even if the person is initially unreceptive, the seed has been planted and the Holy Spirit CAN bring it to fruition. I try to pray especially for those who have been unreceptive, that God will use someone else, if neccessary to bring the seed of truth to fruition.
aussieannie wrote:
'All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.' (Edmund Burke)
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I have been thinking of the exact same quote and how it applies to this conversation! We must be kindrid spirits!
aussieannie wrote:
| Thank you Dawn, you've had me thinking on ALOT of things through these two threads. |
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Same to you!
Dawn
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Sarah in SC
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I know I am slow to respond to this--I've been helping a friend the last two weeks and have had little time to post, and this topic is so difficult, I wanted to make sure I had time to respond in a way that wasn't quick or flippant.
I am a bit disappointed that I can't find the original thread that my post was lifted from. My post was in response to an idea in the original thread of bumper stickers and other ways of communicating the pro-life message, and it had become a dicussion that seemed to take a turn into the less compassionate.
In my original post (in the other thread, and above),I said "Somehow I don't think that we encourage those hurting women wrought by the guilt of abortion to seek help from programs like Rachel's Vineyard by making them more uncomfortable. I think they are touched by mercy and moved toward repentence."
The following is a portion of an article by Bishop Paul S. Loverde called, "Living the Gospel of Life in Prayer, Education, Action, and Sacrifice." He says, in a much more eloquent way than I ever could, what I was trying to say, in the following:
"The style and tone of our language are also very important. Often, that style and tone have kept the pro-life movement in the forefront of American politics for the last thirty years, but have done little to help those who are in crisis, and those who have had abortions. In other words, that type of language has done little to change hearts. I believe that positive language opens eyes more than negative language. As St. Francis de Sales put it, "you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar." There has been much research over the past few years in which the social scientists spoke to women who have had abortions and those who have turned away from an abortion facility opting to keep a childWithout exception, the research indicates that messages offering help have always worked. David Reardon, one such researcher, wrote:
"Most pro-lifers probably do want to be compassionate. They really do ‘hate the sin, but love the sinner.’ Unfortunately, this seldom comes through in their anti-abortion rhetoric.
"Consider, for example, this comment made by many pro-lifers: ‘I can’t understand how anyone could have an abortion.’ Sadly, anyone who says this is merely exposing his ignorance of the immense pressures which drive people to choose abortion.
"Polls show that at least 70 percent of women having abortions believe abortion is immoral. Most of these women thought they would never have an abortion. Many even considered themselves to be pro-lifers. But when they found themselves trapped in a hard situation, they ended up submitting to [what they considered to be] the ‘evil necessity’ of abortion as their ‘only choice.’ With this fact in mind, a more humble pro-life attitude would be to say, ‘Who am I to throw stones at others?’
"Secondly, pro-lifers who say, ‘I don’t understand how anyone could have an abortion’ are blind to how hurtful this statement can be. Think about it. What is the implication of this comment to a person who has had an abortion? Won’t it be heard as, ‘Only an evil person could ever have an abortion?’ This is not what most pro-lifers intend to say, but it is the message that is heard."
There is absolutely no doubt that abortion is evil and immoral, but those who are involved in abortion are not evil. We must hate the sin but love the sinner. We must extend true compassion. True compassion never withholds or denies the truth, including the truth about the human person. It is crucial that we lead those who seek our assistance to a greater understanding of the dignity of each and every person — not only the baby, but also the mother and those involved in her decision. The cure for the anti-life culture is a change in behavior — a change in attitude toward Christ. In particular, may we create a new approach blending truth with compassion! (my emphasis) As our Holy Father said to the Bishops of Region XI (Western U.S.) on Oct. 2, 1998, "The unconditional defense of life must always include the message that true healing is possible through reconciliation with the Body of Christ."
I'm not quite sure how poor Mother Teresa got caught up in this discussion , but of course no one ever accused her of being judgmental or seeming "holier than thou." Mother Teresa, when asked how she kept from reacting to those who were sick, dying, starving, said that she saw the face of Jesus--only Jesus--when she walked among those in that circumstance. And of course she spoke adamantly against the issues of abortion and contraception. She was the one who equated children with flowers--how could one ever have too many? But she spoke this way to leaders of governments, and countries. I never heard of her speaking that way to a particular woman who had been through the experience of an abortion. She used compassion and empathy with individuals. And she turned the hearts of millions.
Dawn, I appreciate you sharing your personal story with us. It certainly helps to see where you are coming from. I'm having trouble equating your feeling of being uncomfortable with your marriage outside the church with the enormity of having ended the life of one's baby, though---that's quite a different level of "uncomfortable." I'm very glad you didn't feel judged by the priest that you talked with--because if he had, you might never have come to the faith that you love so much. And if we speak to those poor, hurting souls that have been involved in abortion with judgmental tones or in a statement that can be heard as "you are evil," they may never turn in repentence--and then they may never be reconciled with the Body of Christ. 
The line I repeat the most to people who ask for my thoughts when someone has hurt them with words is, "It's all in the delivery." It is possible to communicate the most difficult of messages in a way that doesn't wound beyond repair. It's all in how you deliver the message. That was the point of my original post. Thanks for endulging me in my explanation.
God bless,
Sarah
Editing to give the web address where the entire article from Bishop Loverde can be found: http://www.catholicherald.com/articles/00articles/loverde928 .htm
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aussieannie
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Thank you Sarah, that was very good reading. I think we all agreed in the end that Mother Teresa was an ideal person TO quote. Interestingly enough she did not hold back when addressing the Clintons years ago, and they DID squirm! (One of life's memorable moments! ) So there is a time to be very firm and forthright, her speech was fabulous reading.
People like that (presidents/law makers) have alot of influence, and have the power to slowly change the direction of the law and of society (just like Bush is now bringing in pro-life judges so that one day RvW can be overturned in court. I remember the election between Gore and Bush, Barbara Streisdan, someone who is extremely anti-life, said that there were 3 reasons not to vote Bush, "The Supreme Court, Supreme Court, Supreme Court!")
But I am sure Mother Teresa used a different tone with the same basic message to those who did suffer the realities of these pressures, she would find a way to express with love, the importance of choosing life for their babies and for their own souls.
So Mother Teresa gives us the example of when to have differing approaches with the same objective at hand.
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Dawnie
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Sarah in SC wrote:
| I am a bit disappointed that I can't find the original thread that my post was lifted from. |
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Here is the thread your post was lifted from.
Dawn
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Sarah in SC
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Dawnie wrote:
Sarah in SC wrote:
| I am a bit disappointed that I can't find the original thread that my post was lifted from. |
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Here is the thread your post was lifted from.
Dawn |
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Thank you, Dawn. Someone PMd me earlier with the same link!
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kathleenmom
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Sarah,
I had something to add to this line of thought:
Sarah in SC wrote:
The line I repeat the most to people who ask for my thoughts when someone has hurt them with words is, "It's all in the delivery." It is possible to communicate the most difficult of messages in a way that doesn't wound beyond repair. It's all in how you deliver the message.
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Ahhh...but this is so very difficult to do. I recently was compelled to speak the truth to a friend and as a result alienated her and some others. This was not my intent, nor was it my intent to be "holier than thou" or to judge. It would have been far easier for me to concoct a half-truth or avoid the subject altogether as some others did, but I chose not to because I wanted to both be honest and to hopefully help the person by acknowledging that what they were doing was sinful. I spent a great deal of time thinking about how to deliver the message. It was gentle and non-judgemental in tone and extended a hand in friendship and in hope that I could help. The message was not received that way.
This is just something I have been chewing on a good deal lately. I am perfectly capable of putting my foot in my mouth and sometimes my deliveries are not as gentle as they ought to be. I always try to give my hot Irish temper a few days to "temper" before I unleash my tongue. I gave sincere thought to weighing the consequences of inaction with what I felt my obligation to my friend was as her Sister in Christ and knew I needed to say the hard things. I said them gently, but I don't think I could have worded the message in a way that wouldn't have caused the intended party pain. I wish that it were not so. Sometimes I believe there isn't a way to deliver a difficult message without causing discomfort.
God bless,
Kathleen
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ladybugs
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kathleenmom wrote:
| Sometimes I believe there isn't a way to deliver a difficult message without causing discomfort. |
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Unfortunately, I have experienced this as well.
Did not Padre Pio send his guardian angel to another's guardian angel when he had to deal with unpleasantries? Does anyone have a good book on which to read the life of dear St. Pio?
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aussieannie
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Such a difficult subject to discuss, but an important one, so it has been great to hear the different discussions.
I think why I tend to develop an 'allergy' to hearing the words, "show some compassion" is that it has been the most deceitful tool used by the forces of evil in this day and age, particularly by the people promoting the culture of death. It is the devil's most clever tool, taking a kernel of truth and distorting and twisting it for there own evil means. It is a forceful tatic to 'shut up' and coat it in seemingly christian intentions.
You can hear discussions of the two ways of 'delivering' truth and they both definately have their merits because there are so many ways in which we CAN can deliver the message of truth, but I feel the important litmus test for the compassionate arguement is has the truth been watered down to a degree that it is no longer recognisable or it has lost it's God given enlightement and ability to correct and guide and strike at the heart effectively.
The saints have given us examples of ALL different manners of fulfilling this spirtiual work of mercy, admonishing the sinner. St Francis of Assisi is one who I could think of who had a gentle approach (can't think of an exact example at present) and yet a priest (Padre Pio) from Francis' own order centuries later, shouted and tossed people out of confession for their incomplete confessions!!!
The church obviously has room for both approaches and we KNOW that Padre Pio was a man of immense humility, there was no "I am holier than thou" going on there!! Some people need tough, harsh words, they will only respond favourably to such tatics and others a softer approach is necessary (and in this case it is probably due to the sinner's greater pride you are dealing with.)
I personally think that I need greater humility to call a 'spade a spade' when I really ought to - it is my terrible PRIDE that holds me back - "they might think I'm proud and judgemental" I think to myself!!
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Sarah in SC
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| Posted: July 11 2006 at 11:47pm | IP Logged
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Padre Pio was given the gift of seeing into souls, wasn't he? I've heard that he shouted at those that he knew were giving incomplete confessions, or that were not truly repentant. I have an acquaintance who was blessed by having his confession heard by Padre Pio--can you imagine???
Anne,I'm with you...I believe there is great power in humility.
Kathleen, I've emailed you about your situation.
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aussieannie
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| Posted: July 12 2006 at 4:43am | IP Logged
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ladybugs wrote:
| Did not Padre Pio send his guardian angel to another's guardian angel when he had to deal with unpleasantries? Does anyone have a good book on which to read the life of dear St. Pio? |
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Well, he used his guardian angel for alot of things! Are you looking for a good one, Maria? I have this one that is all about his marvelous interactions with angels, called "Send me your Guardian Angel"
Padre Pio once remarked he was really a big softie inside and it wasn't really his nature to repremand so sternly but he felt that God very much expected him to display harshness as these particular souls would be lost otherwise.
I've just got hold of another good book on Padre Pio and I have been having a bit of a over some his outbursts with penitents. Here are a few of Padre Pio's words when questioned over his attitude:
Quote:
| Padre Pio confessed that the sight of so many hardened and unrepentant sinners moved him to an anger reflective of God's indignation. |
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and this one:
Quote:
| When questioned about his apparent rudeness and ill humor, Pio insisted, "I don't give sweets to someone who needs a purge." To one of his superiors, he confided, "I treat souls as they deserve before God." |
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Ok, so we are not saints like Padre Pio, but it IS interesting reading. I suppose his ability to know for sure when to correct harshly was divinely inspired but were not even talking about that degree of harshness anyway for ourselves, just prudent, sober correction when necessary - Padre Pio also said that he prayed and prayed for that sinner until they came back to him begging and I am sure there would have been very few who didn't - I suppose Padre Pio's example to us would be that when sober correction is needed accompanied prayer for the soul is also important.
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Dawnie
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| Posted: July 12 2006 at 9:14am | IP Logged
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kathleenmom wrote:
| I said them gently, but I don't think I could have worded the message in a way that wouldn't have caused the intended party pain. I wish that it were not so. Sometimes I believe there isn't a way to deliver a difficult message without causing discomfort. |
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I have experienced this difficulty myself, Kathleen, on both ends! I remember being very gently admonished by a friend in college for something I was doing. He could not have been more gentle with me. But, frankly, I was hardened in my sin and perceived his concern for me as "judgementalism." I think part of the problem is that at times people will perceive correction as "judgementalism" when, in reality, it is not. It is not ourintention to cause pain, but at times it is kind of an unavoidable side effect of hearing the truth spoken. As I reflected on in an earlier post, I think this is a natural consequence of being in a state of sin.
Keep praying for your friend, that the Holy Spirit will bring to fruition the seed you have planted. You never know what may happen a few years down the road...remember, I was once a Protestant who thought my Catholic friends were crazy for believing in the Eucharist! I am now SO thankful for my Catholic friends who were courageous enough to share the truth with me. Perhaps one day, your friend will thank you, too. 
Dawn
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Speaking the truth in charity
