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Angel
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| Posted: June 21 2006 at 10:32pm | IP Logged
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Kathy in VA made a post on the Covenanted Happiness thread just before it was archived that no one addressed in that thread. I hope it's ok to quote it here as a new topic, because I'd really like to get some opinions, advice, etc. on the matter from those more experienced than I am, as I'm sort of in the same place as Kathy seems to be.
Kathy wrote:
"I've been listening to what I hear you all saying and I must say I am attracted to the idea of "complete openness to life", but am at the same time fearful of it. I currently have two - daughter, 3 yrs. 4 mos., and son, 11 mos. As many of you can probably relate to, when you have only little ones and absolutely EVERYTHING is riding solely on your shoulders in the house - childcare, housework, meal planning, shopping, running errands, household finances, etc., particularly when your husband has a demanding job and is also going to school part-time - the idea of possibly having many children very close together is very daunting. Since I tend to experience fairly early return of fertility after having a baby, and based on the fact that both our children were conceived the very first month we were "open" to it, we could have another baby every eighteen months or so (or less) for the next ten or 15 years. I recognize that there is no guarantee of this, but it's a possibility (I'm 31, I'll be 32 in September)."
Also, when last week I attempted to talk to my husband about Msgr. Cormac's book (which I purchased) and what I've been reading here, he really didn't "buy" the arguments that you're all making. He feels that we're just overwhelmed right now and that we need to wait at least a little while (6 to 12 months or so) before we can be open to life again. He actually told me to "stop taking everything I read so seriously". I am really sleep deprived (baby still doesn't sleep well - wakes me up at least 4 times a night to nurse. Wakes me up even in bed with me - my body just can't seem to nurse and sleep at the same time). So he states his position and then I hear "the devil" whispering in my ear - how can you face another pregnancy right now when you're so exhausted? You're stressed out enough now - I can't seem to keep my house clean now - etc. etc.
We would not have support of our family in being completely open to life. Both dh and I come from families where ABC was used to limit family size (I'm one of three, DH is one of two). My mother was sterilized after baby #3. My sister has been married for 4 years and is just starting to try for a baby - after using ABC until just a couple of months ago. (Sis also co-habitated with her husband before marriage and had numerous immoral relationships before that). So this is where I'm coming from. I also don't leave near family, so I only get help for the first two weeks after having a baby, then everyone goes home. We don't even have people willing to babysit so dh and I can go on a date - we've been on two two-hour dates since ds was born, and both times the sitter has anxiously been waiting our return home because ds wouldn't stop crying."
(All of this should be in a yellow box, but I can't figure out how to do that when I switch topics??)
This struck a chord with me. I am a Catholic "revert" -- a cradle Catholic who fell away from the Church and is in the process of coming back to it, with shockingly little knowledge of what it means to live a Catholic life. My biological mother died less than 24 hours after having me from an amniotic embollism. I was her only child. My father was not Catholic, but I was baptised Catholic because my mother had wanted it. My father remarried when I was 4 and my new mother was also Catholic. But after 2 babies and a difficult pregnancy with the 2nd, my father told her he could not take the stress and worry of any more births after losing his first wife in that way, and so my mother used contraception. I had only the vaguest notion that "some Catholics don't use birth control" until I was 30 years old and decided to find out for myself. At that point, we had three children and I'd had one miscarriage, and it was the miscarriage that pointed me toward finding out what this "weird" Catholic doctrine was all about. When I read Kelly Hahn's LIfe-Giving Love, I cried. I told my husband how beautiful it was. But he was a much tougher sell.
For one thing, all the males in my life (father and husband) are terrified of me being pregnant. Then I have awful morning sickness and a hard time coping postpartum. Our kids are NOT good sleepers. I am a horrible housekeeper, and so is my husband. My eldest was such a challenge that I felt like I had to pry my second child out of my husband. Then I had to do the same for #3. BUt #3 miscarried at 13 weeks. After that we didn't use contraception anymore becaue both of us wanted another child so much, now that we knew what there was to lose. It took 5 months to conceive, which were achingly long, and then when I was 13 weeks pregnant, I had to have a retained gall stone removed and was told the baby might die. Fortunately, everything went fine and my little boy is 3 now, but the whole experience made my husband and I realize just what a blessing a baby is.
So we relied on breastfeeding to delay fertility for the next 20 months... and then we were going to move, so I managed, after much discussion, to convince my husband to try NFP. But I "goofed" and instead got pregnant with triplets.
One of the triplets disappeared and we ended up with beuatiful boy twins, who are now 8 months old, but just the possibility of conceiving multiples again (and possibly viable triplets!) has scared my husband off. He isn't Catholic, grew up in a home that wasn't really anything, and has come a long way on a tough spiritual journey. But now my babies are 8 months old, we're bottlefeeding, I'm fertile, and NFP is scary, being open to life is scarier, and the process of figuring things out between us again can be a little discouraging. I think he is starting to come around, but.. with 5 kids already at 34, the math does get a little intimidating ;-).
I have been praying a lot for guidance. I pray to St. Joseph to help my husband be a good father and a good husband. I am trying to say rosaries for myself. I pray to St. Jude, because our situation seems impossible so much of the time. We just moved to a region where we have no family and no friends, and life can be hard.
*But* -- I have to remind myself that God did provide. The babies had no NICU stay, which I was worried about. My husband's coworkers provided us a magnificent shower and food for three or four weeks, when we weren't expecting anything. I did not give birth in the back of my minivan on the hour+ drive to the hospital. In fact, most of my worries were completely unfounded.
And yet... it is still so hard for me to trust, and so hard for me to swallow my impatience with my husband, too, (even though I am scared of making the leap as well), because marriage is about two people. I have to believe that if God intends for us to have more children, he will change my husband's mind. And I guess I just have to be content with prayer.
I do wonder if any of you have been in a similar situation, though, and what advice you would give?
--Angela
Mom to Five
Three Plus Two
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Bridget
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| Posted: June 22 2006 at 6:47am | IP Logged
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You know, I had a post typed up to reply to Kathy and then couldn't find the post. Can I blame it on a slow dial up connection? Here is what I had written to her.
"Dear Kathy, (and Angela!) welcome to the boards! I’ve been in the same boat you are. All our married life my dh has been in grad school or working two jobs. We have not had many options in sitters either. Being home alone with only littles 24/7 is challenging. Homeschooling changed that and made it so exciting for me.
You probably cannot argue your dh into changing his mind. He is doing his job of looking after you. Thank him for that. Then pray for God to guide you both in all things and seek to obediently do His will. That’s the bottom line.
Your part in practical terms is to manage the duties you have well. Start teaching your little girl to do simple household tasks. She is a long way from being real help, but now is the time to begin teaching her. She can put away the silverware, her toys and clean clothes. She can fold kitchen towels and help set the table. Do these things together and make them fun. Include her in as many of your tasks as you can.
I’m sure you know to make a basic menu and shopping list, this cuts down on the mental work when your too tired to think.
After my first two babies, I realized that my babies would have to learn to sleep well, or I wouldn’t be able to function. I know there are moms here who are more ‘attachment parenting’ than I am, so they may have better advice on this. I started putting my babies in the crib for naps and night time while they are still awake. They fuss a little at first but quickly learn that they are there to sleep and are pretty good sleepers. I do not expect them to sleep all night and I do fall asleep nursing in bed sometimes, but this one technique has gained me a couple of solid chunks of sleep most nights. I should also point out that my babies start out big and I have never had problems with milk supply.
Another big help in being open and having a large family is just surrounding yourself with like minded couples. Good examples provide a world of support.
Those are just thoughts off the top of my head. Keep asking if this didn’t help or you think of specific questions. There is a goldmine of wisdom here."
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God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
Our Magnum Opus
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Bridget
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| Posted: June 22 2006 at 8:07am | IP Logged
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In general I think men have a more difficult time with a large family life style than women. Many, many of them overcome their resistance and are heroic, magnificent dads of many.
Providing for a large family in a two income world is no easy feat.
Men are out there in the ugly culture daily and have to deal with co-workers and customers who are not always kind about lots of kids/ homeschooling/ the Catholic faith.
Because our dear men are at work, they are surrounded by materialism. New cars, boats, exciting vacations, things that they must sacrifice because they have chosen many children over materials things.
They hate to see their wives suffering in pregnancy, post partum recovery or lack of sleep. There isn't much they can do to relieve the suffering and men like action, so this one is especially hard for them.
We wives need to pray for them daily, tell them often how much their sacrifices mean to us. Show our husbands appreciation as well as we can. Our men want to know that they have given us a happy life. No matter how poor or difficult our life is, if we are cheerful, grateful and enthusiastic, the men feel that they are being successful in providing a happy life for their families. Success breeds success. They will be more motivated to be the great husbands and fathers that God designed them to be.
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God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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dhbrug
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| Posted: June 22 2006 at 8:44am | IP Logged
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Men respond to a challenge and the chance to be heroic. The world may claim that being a dad or mum is boring and a waste of money, time and ability - but we know that it is the best use of all these things.
Covenanted Happiness is a very good book, but you should focus on reading the relevant parts - or better yet - share them in your own words.
You are right surrounding yourself with large families. Try organising a regular monthly event where families meet for Mass followed by social time. No agenda, membership fees or structure. Mass then socialising. The children go off and play and mums and dads chat. This is not a Mum thing. It is a family thing and Dads get to meet other like minded fathers and discuss real things - beyond sport and the weather.
At one of our recent meetings we had good discussions about a tricky scripture question, trading favourite responses to family critics, what books work best for phonics, how to make swords at home and so on.
Soon you come to realise that:
1. You are not alone
2. Other families you admire and respect have problems too
3. Those same families are enjoying life and love their children
4. Those same families welcome more.
5. There are always new babies arriving.
Lana had our fifth when she was 33. We now have six. You never know when God will give you the gift of new life.
Cheers
__________________
David
http://bruggietales.blogspot.com
dw Lana 89, dd 91, ds 93, ds 96, ds 98, dd 01, dd 04, ds 07
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Meredith
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| Posted: June 22 2006 at 8:51am | IP Logged
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Bridget wrote:
Men are out there in the ugly culture daily and have to deal with co-workers and customers who are not always kind about lots of kids/ homeschooling/ the Catholic faith.
Because our dear men are at work, they are surrounded by materialism. New cars, boats, exciting vacations, things that they must sacrifice because they have chosen many children over materials things....
We wives need to pray for them daily, tell them often how much their sacrifices mean to us. Show our husbands appreciation as well as we can. Our men want to know that they have given us a happy life. No matter how poor or difficult our life is, if we are cheerful, grateful and enthusiastic, the men feel that they are being successful in providing a happy life for their families. Success breeds success. They will be more motivated to be the great husbands and fathers that God designed them to be.
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This is such excellent advice and wisdom Bridget, thank you for sharing your perspective and you are so right on!!! I'm pryaing that my dh will always be open to a new blessing, but he struggles with much of the above. I truly believe that "success does breed success"!!Thanks so much.
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Meredith
Mom of 4 Sweeties
Sweetness and Light
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Lisbet
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| Posted: June 22 2006 at 9:19am | IP Logged
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Quote:
But* -- I have to remind myself that God did provide. The babies had no NICU stay, which I was worried about. My husband's coworkers provided us a magnificent shower and food for three or four weeks, when we weren't expecting anything. I did not give birth in the back of my minivan on the hour+ drive to the hospital. In fact, most of my worries were completely unfounded.
And yet... it is still so hard for me to trust, and so hard for me to swallow my impatience with my husband, too, (even though I am scared of making the leap as well), because marriage is about two people. I have to believe that if God intends for us to have more children, he will change my husband's mind. And I guess I just have to be content with prayer. |
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You did a beautiful job of answering your own questions right there! :) Trust can be very hard, swallowing impatience??? Even harder at times!!
My husband and I are both open, we made the leap years ago in our marriage. We are both 31, with 8 children (no multiples at least! :)), and while, like you said, there are no gaurentees, the math can indeed be a bit overwhelming! And, while we are both eagerly open to life, we still struggle, we will always struggle, we are human! :)
Like David said in his post, being around other like-minded men really does a world of good. I know it did for my husband. Our 8th baby had a short stay in the NICU, it was the first time we've ever had a baby in the hospital, we were terrified. During that time one of my husbands like-minded dad friends called him from a business trip to see how he was holding up, that uplifted him so much, and I was so thankful they had formed that friendship.
Bridget wrote:
Quote:
We wives need to pray for them daily, tell them often how much their sacrifices mean to us. Show our husbands appreciation as well as we can. Our men want to know that they have given us a happy life. No matter how poor or difficult our life is, if we are cheerful, grateful and enthusiastic, the men feel that they are being successful in providing a happy life for their families. Success breeds success. They will be more motivated to be the great husbands and fathers that God designed them to be.
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This is really truely some great advice!! Keep praying, God will take care of it all, just pray and trust! :)
__________________
Lisa, wife to Tony,
Mama to:
Nick, 17
Abby, 15
Gabe, 13
Isaac, 11
Mary, 10
Sam, 9
Henry, 7
Molly, 6
Mark, 5
Greta, 3
Cecilia born 10.29.10
Josephine born 6.11.12
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MEBarrett
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| Posted: June 22 2006 at 9:36am | IP Logged
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My husband was raised in a family that regards children much the same way we would regard pets. You have one, because everyone does, you hire someone to look after it and go back to work within a few weeks. If you have two then something permanent must be done to prevent more.
Dave has two younger sisters. You only have to be with his mother for about ten minutes for her to tell you the third child was a huge mistake and she had her tubes tied the same day she gave birth to her. Needless to say his youngest sister is about 100 pounds over weight and pops Lithium like they were gumdrops. Poor thing.
When my MIL found out I was expecting twins she asked me if I was really going to go through with it.  That's the kind of family support he gets.
Dave is a convert, he was raised with no religion so the "open to life thing" was a journey for him. It took a lot of prayer and patience and keeping my mouth shut (not natural for me) to get him there.
The most valuable help was to surround ourselves with like minded people. Dave's best friend is my best friend's husband. They often take the train home together, they help each other with home projects, support each other in fatherhood and faith and even take the boys on a father son camping trip for 5 days every summer. They drag along a poor Franciscan friar (whether he wants to spend five days in the woods with a bunch of wild boys or not  ) and do daily mass and prayer.
This has, I think, made the oddity of our lifestyle easier for him when he is out in the world. He works for an investment bank where the only concern is conspicous consumption. We live very differently and he takes quite a bit of abuse for it. Having a group of friends who live like we do has helped.
My best advice would be to find some larger families and hang out. Do stuff together and encourage friendships. This will help you both out. Who better to understand when you need a little help than a mom or dad with a large family?
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Blessings,
Mary Ellen
Mom to seven beautiful kids
Tales from the Bonny Blue House
O Night Divine
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ALmom
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| Posted: June 22 2006 at 2:05pm | IP Logged
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Also realize that as you pray for you dh, support him, and try not to tell him what to do while still sharing your feelings - and acknowledging his, NFP can be a legitimate sacrifice of love for the sake of your husband. This is sacrificial love as well.
Janet
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aussieannie
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| Posted: June 23 2006 at 1:29am | IP Logged
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MEBarret wrote:
| My husband was raised in a family that regards children much the same way we would regard pets. |
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Ouch! Potent & but sadly true! You hit the nail on the the head describing many couples today, Mary Ellen.
Increasingly children get tied up and confused with the commodity lifestyle. I have my new car, new holiday, new boat, my exotic breed of dog and my pigeon pair! 
I think the culture of death has alot to do with it too. It forces couples to think this way, especially those directly touched by it. We always have a pro-life slogan on the back of our car, and I have wanted to design a 'homemade one' in recent times, but felt it was probably to confronting to do it and so I have shelved those plans - this is what I would have written:
The Abortion Culture
The unwanted child becomes a corpse.
The wanted child becomes a commodity.
and if you felt like it on the opposite side of the car's back window you could put something like this (unless someone can think of something better - I would love that feedback!)
The Culture of Life
The wanted child is an expected blessing.
The unwantedchild is an unexpected blessing.
Hmm....don't know whether that is that heart-pulling..can anyone think of anything inspirational?
Actually I will post this on a new thread so as not to distrupt the intent of this one and would love feedback....is all this too hard hitting to have on the back of a car and can anyone improve on the second slogan?
(I tell you what, somtimes I never know when I put finger to keyboard where my posting is going to take me!   I'm sure others feel the same!)
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Under Her Starry Mantle
Spiritual Motherhood for Priests
Blessed with 3 boys & 3 girls!
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Openness to life and husbands
