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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: Sept 26 2012 at 1:40pm | IP Logged
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I'm having a rough parenting month. I'm also having a hard it me articulating the problem both in my own head or to my husband.
I know that Dr. Saint-Cyr is so right when he speaks of the difference between being authoritative and authoritarian. Without picking apart my husband's parenting style (he's a better parent than me in many ways for sure!), suffice it to say, I'm pretty sure that both of us resort to authoritarian measures in our parenting. People compliment us on the behaviour of our children a lot and ask our secret, recommend we write a book, etc... But come on, our oldest is only 8. We still have plenty of time to screw them up.
The past two years have been really difficult. Our youngest has been a HUGE challenge to me from his conception, and I must admit, I've not risen to the challenge. I've retreated a lot emotionally, and I know that I have not been present to my family as I should. I am starting to see the results of this in the behaviour of my children. I take their transgressions personally, and in desparation, I seek to make them feel guilty. My kids are generally people pleasers by nature, so this isn't hard.
To put it more succinctly, I'm afraid that I've relied too much on manipulation as a tool in getting my children to behave. Today, it hit me that they are a lot more sneaky than they used to be, and I don't think it is entirely due to age. I really need to address this before it becomes a more deeply seeded (seated? Which is it? Lol.) issue.
Are there any favorite articles or books that you have that outline this well? Namely the authoritarian/ authoritative thing as well as the dangers of rewards based systems? Again, I try not to be critical of dh's parenting, but I do think he relies a lot on our boys' desire to please him as a tool, and let's face it, dads don't spend nearly as much time reading up on their parenting and education methodologies. I'm going to try to find the video where Dr. St.-Cyr speaks on this (anyone remember off the top of your head exactly which one it is?), but I'd also like something that goes a bit deeper.
Thanks!
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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Marcia
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| Posted: Sept 26 2012 at 2:28pm | IP Logged
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Have you read Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn? He's not a christian, but I really like what he says....He's coming from a school system thought process...
His other book unconditional parenting was good for my husband and I to read and get ideas from.
I am personally reading Connected Parenting by Jennifer Kolari and liking it. Again not from a Christian persepctive, but good suggestions neverthe less. Always trying to read through my Catholic lens....
I did like Pam Leo's book on parenting. She seems to be the most gentle of souls.
My oldest is 13 and I am still trying to figure it out. But I do always come back to Charlotte Mason's first standard in her synopsis. Children are persons. I see them as an image of God and how I treat them is how I am treating the "jesus" given to me today. When you welcome a child in Jesus' name you welcome Jesus...wasn't that the reading from last Sunday? :) When I am not being kind in my parenting, I need to back up and think about that passage. :)
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Marcia
Mom to six and wife to one
Homeschooling 10th, 7th, 5th, 2nd, PreK and a toddler in tow.
I wonder why
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stellamaris
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Lindsay, I wish I could give you a few words of encouragement! Parenting is a tough business, and the toughest part about it is seeing our own weaknesses and failings affecting our children. Recognizing that you have an area that needs to be examined is half the battle  .
One parenting book that helped me years ago is Making Your Children Mind Without Using Yours by Dr. Kevin Leman, who I believe is a Christian (not Catholic). As I recall, he gives good advice that helped me step back from an overly emotional level of involvement in my children's lives. Do you understand what I mean by that? Of course, we love our children dearly, but as parents we are often emotionally way too entangled with our child and their choices. If a child misbehaves, I must have the emotional freedom to correct that child calmly and for the child's well-being, not because I'm upset or my pride is hurt or I am in some way living through my child's successes and failures.
I also recommend that you re-read the sections in School Education by Charlotte Mason that deal with authority (authoritative), autocracy (which we might call authoritarian),and docility, especially Chapter II. She gives a wonderful description of the differences between these two approaches:
Charlotte Mason wrote:
| Authority is not uneasy; captious, harsh and indulgent by turns. This is the action of autocracy, which is self-sustained as it is self-derived, and is impatient and resentful, on the watch for transgressions and quick to take offence [sic]...It has, too, many commandments...The tendency to assume self-derived power is common to us all, even the meekest of us, and calls for special watchfulness; the more so, because it shows itself fully as often in remitting duties and in granting indulgences as it does in inflicting punishments...the home or school ruler, who has no principle behind his own will, soon learns that a child can be autocratic too--autocratic and belligerent to an alarming extent. |
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In demonstrating a proper approach to exercising authority, Miss Mason references the story of the centurion with the sick servant, who told our Lord that he was a man under authority and he had others under him. So it is with us as parents. We are not enforcing our own wills, but we are given a trust by God to form our children in holiness to the best of our ability. Therefore, discipline is not a matter of, "Because I said so!" as much as it is a case of, "Because Godsaid so." This whole idea is very freeing, really. A child might say, "I don't want to do schoolwork now!", to which I can calmly reply, "I know you don't want to work right now, but I have to help you stick to your work, because one day God will ask me whether or not I taught you what you needed to know, and I will have to answer Him." What a concept for a child to understand! Mom and Dad are UNDER AUTHORITY!!! They can't do whatever they want to do, either! This whole idea is really important for children to understand.
CrunchyMom wrote:
| To put it more succinctly, I'm afraid that I've relied too much on manipulation as a tool in getting my children to behave. Today, it hit me that the are a lot more sneaky than they used to be, and I don't think it is entirely due to age. I really need to address this before it becomes a more deeply seeded (seated? Which is it? Lol.) issue. |
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As far as emotionally manipulating our children, Miss Mason also speaks to that, I believe in Home Education. I can't quote that volume as my copy is down in Virginia, but as I recall she talks about the ways we ought NOT to use in getting our children to behave. One of those negative ways is using a child's natural desire to please his parents/teachers, or using a child's desire for affection as a means to get him to do what is right ("If you do this, then I will like you.") This is conditional love and it also trains a child to strive not for what is right or excellent, but for what will give him the affection and praise he desires. This is a very dangerous pattern of behavior in this fallen world, since there are many things in later life that your child might be tempted to do to get praise and affection that could be very detrimental to him or her.
I think it is very hard as a parent to completely avoid some of this kind of manipulation, but as far as possible, we want to correct our children with the idea that it is RIGHT to do what is RIGHT and in the long run that will be what makes us happy. We can lend our children our strength to help them do what is right and by doing so we place ourselves on their side, not in some kind of power struggle with them. Lending our strength to them might include giving help as needed (say if a task is very overwhelming or difficult), giving encouragement, refusing to "let them off the hook", even enforcing consequences. It's OK to say something like, "I promised I'd help you learn to keep your room clean, so, no, you can't go outside and play until it's all picked up." Can you see how this puts you and your child on the same "team" working toward a goal of responsible behavior?
Finally, remember your children are very young. They don't actually know a lot yet and it is your responsibility to teach them how to behave. Some ways to do this are specific, clear teaching on a subject; providing opportunity for "practice"; making sure you enforce a rule once it is in place. For example, my ds age 9 had gotten into the bad habit of running outside without closing the door. I kept calling him back in, but it wasn't having an impact! So, I told him it was clear he was having a problem with door closing, and because it was important that he grow up as a gentlemen with good manners, I was going to help him by making him practice door closing. Now, this might seem a bit silly, and it was pretty funny to watch him carefully open and close the door 15 times. He was laughing by the end, but got the point. So, everything doesn't have to be a conflict if you can position yourself on your child's side and allow them to suffer the consequences of their own poor choices without you getting all upset.
I feel I've really rambled here, and maybe not given much specifics, but the key things I've learned over the years are:
1. Detach some from your child. Don't live vicariously through them or derive your sense of worth from their behavior.
2. Don't overreact to bad behavior. Stay calm.
3. State consequences, enforce them, but don't get into power struggles if you can help it.
4. Call a child to their own higher, more noble self. Tell them what is right and challenge them to do it. Don't use affection to manipulate them; don't tell them to do what they ought to do to make you happy.
5. Recognize that you are under God's authority and you have to instruct and teach and correct because of that. Communicate to your children that you are under authority, too.
6. Pray.
7. Pray some more. And then some more!!!!
God bless you, Lindsay!
__________________
In Christ,
Caroline
Wife to  dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
Flowing Streams
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Chris V
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| Posted: Sept 26 2012 at 5:03pm | IP Logged
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My husband and I have very different parenting styles. There are times when I disagree with his style, but mostly (and this sounds worse than it really is), I just let it go because, just as you said, I spend the majority of time with our children and I am the primary disciplinarian. The children will (and have) developed their own relationship with their Daddy and how he responds and relates to them is as unique as my own relationship to each one of our children. ... though I need to say that if there is an issue that seems to be major, then we certainly come together to discuss and agree on the proper route to take.
My own parenting methods are echoed in the books that Marcia has mentioned. I particularly like Pam Leo and her book Connection Parenting. Though, I need to mention that there are some aspects to her style that I don't follow; but it is the overall tone of her message that truly resonates with me.
Upon reading the other books (that Marcia mentioned, and the like), the most significant part of my parenting is recognizing that my children are people. They are people deserving of respect, consideration, and time. Their concerns are not to be dismissed, and if behavior "acts up" there is usually a darn good reason for it (that, in all probability I have overlooked due to my own distraction with life, the rest of the family, household responsibilities, and just-plain not being in-tune with that child).
I have a solid connection with my oldest (she'll turn 8 in November), and I have worked very hard to maintain our relationship. She talks to me. I get her. She is a good, good girl - with a good heart, a kind and gentle soul... *but* she is stubborn. Her stubborness can sometimes be portrayed as defiance (by my husband). I don't see it this way. If I take a moment and listen to her (really listen to her) she has outstanding arguments and can defend her position. Admitting to her that I was wrong or that I made a poor parenting choice in her consequence has often saved us from turmoil and angst within our relationship, in fact, it has made us stronger. She trusts me. I trust her. There is mutual respect. With the younger ones (5, 3, and ... the twins), I pray that a similar relationship blossoms, but as it is right now, their "issues" can be rectified by a communication, and if need by (rarely) a logical consequence of taking away a certain priviledge (if the behavior cannot be dealt with by effective, consistent communication).
Parenting is so very hard. Your personality, your husband's personality, your children's personalities - it all comes together in one big mixing bowl and how other's relate to their children may or may not work within your own home. But I think it is exceptional that you recognize what is and isn't working and are open to change. The very best parents (I believe) keep themselves open, humble, and willing.
Wish we weren't across the country from each other. Sometimes it would be so nice to have these conversations over tea - in real life  
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Chris
Happy Wife with my Happy Life
Mama to My Five Girls ('04~'07~'09~'11~'11)
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mamaslearning
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| Posted: Oct 17 2012 at 7:47am | IP Logged
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stellamaris wrote:
1. Detach some from your child. Don't live vicariously through them or derive your sense of worth from their behavior.
2. Don't overreact to bad behavior. Stay calm.
3. State consequences, enforce them, but don't get into power struggles if you can help it.
4. Call a child to their own higher, more noble self. Tell them what is right and challenge them to do it. Don't use affection to manipulate them; don't tell them to do what they ought to do to make you happy.
5. Recognize that you are under God's authority and you have to instruct and teach and correct because of that. Communicate to your children that you are under authority, too.
6. Pray.
7. Pray some more. And then some more!!!!
God bless you, Lindsay!
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Thank you for this concise list! What a wonderful way to start my day!
Lindsay, I am right there with you! I am sooooooo emotional and take everything as a personal assault, even when there is nothing at all intended in a comment or conversation. I'm working on it, but it's hard!
We are also complemented on our kids behavior (just received one on vacation) and while it reassures me that we do have good kids, it also condemns me since I know that it's not all roses at home. We struggle, mightily. I just want things done my way (authoritarian)!
I used to think my style resulted from a fear for their future but I'm slowly realizing that I've placed my worth in their upbringing and the fear is that I will be judged by their behavior. Because, let's face it, we do get judged in public. Separating out that fear and allowing them to be kids is a challenging process for me.
So, no help only empathy!
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Lara
DD 11, DS 8, DS 6, DS 4
St. Francis de Sales Homeschool
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: Oct 17 2012 at 7:53am | IP Logged
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Yes, thank you ladies for such great advice! Your insights are appreciated!
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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DominaCaeli
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| Posted: Oct 17 2012 at 11:29pm | IP Logged
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Lindsay, I could have written your post almost word for word. I'm feeling very convicted (but also inspired) as I go through Charlotte Mason's Volume 1...I feel like she balances respecting the person of the child while insisting on proper behavior through the development of good habits. I'm still working on the "hows," though, and I'm still working through my own issues (not allowing my own emotions to get the best of me, etc.). Reading the suggestions here with interest!
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Blessings,
Celeste
Joyous Lessons
Mommy to six: three boys (8, 4, newborn) and four girls (7, 5, 2, and 1)
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JodieLyn
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One thing to remember is that kids' behavior is generally worse in the place where they know they are safe and unconditionally loved.. so when they're good when out and not always so much so at home.. you're still doing something right 
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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Aingeal
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Hello all-
I've been thinking about this a lot these past couple of weeks, and I have been so greatly helped by a couple of things. First, this article by Sally Clarkson:
http://www.itakejoy.com/first-time-obedience-really-another- view-into-the-process/
And also her books on motherhood. I adore her:)
When I first had my daughter, I was working with a gentle approach...Dr. Sears and Elizabeth Pantley, namely. Attachment parenting just felt right to me. But once you get through about age 2, there seems to be a dearth of good resources for those who want to continue in this way! I spent a good couple of years really vacillating between being WAY too harsh with my tiny children, and trying to apply gentle parenting principles from babyhood! Not working! I read a lot of blog posts and forum threads about "tomato staking" your kids, and everything in me said that "you will obey me the first time or else!" mindset was wrong. At least for me. I am not opposed to spanking, on occasion, but often these authoritarian systems rely too heavily on it, in my opinion. And they just evoke such an unpleasant atmosphere, for me. I wouldn't want to live and learn there, and I certainly wouldn't feel motivated to be my best self.
After a lot of prayer, observing other families, and thinking about who I am and what my natural inclinations are, I found myself pondering Sally's thoughts about parenting with grace and not being afraid to follow the Holy Spirit and the model of our Savior in how we treat our children. We have rules in our home, and there are consequences, but I no longer feel like we have to be strident in order to produce "good" kids. They are good, but they are learning and make mistakes. How I react to them is often the much bigger measure of how well they learn
Anyway, this isn't my most organized thought process, but perhaps it's helpful!
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In Christ,
Angela
Wife to DH of 9 years and Mama to DD (7) and DS (5)
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Rewards, consequences, authoritarianism
