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*Lindsey*
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| Posted: Jan 25 2012 at 1:15pm | IP Logged
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We are struggling with cooperation and/or Right-away obedience. We have a little chant, "The first time I say it, then you obey it!" And they are great about finishing it when I start saying it...but the obeying it isn't happening! 
The biggest issue is when it's time for cleaning up.
The oldest two are pretty good about listening the first time but not as good as we would prefer. The twins (4 yo) are terrible.
Lately, I've been setting the timer for so many minutes (15 usually) and then take away what they don't have cleaned up. It doesn't work. They play around until the timer beeps, and as I'm picking up toys and putting them in the bag, they run around grabbing what they can while screaming and crying. I put the toys in the closet and tell them they can have them back next time it's time to clean IF they do a good job. I've had toys in the closet for days now. 
Time-outs don't work for the twins. They don't stay put, and I'm not supernanny who had the time or patience to put them back 40 times until they stay.
Today, oldest DD was cleaning a designated room and I told her I'd let her have some M&Ms when she's done. The twins heard this, and I told them to clean up their toys and they could have some as well. They still aren't cleaning up. They always say, "HELP ME!" and I do to some extent, but they want me to clean it up for them and I just. can't. do. that.
In addition to needing ideas on how to deal with this, I need some tips on keeping them occupied and not giving them a free-for-all when the other kids are doing school or whatever. They are very used to being able to get out whatever they want, whenever they want. I tried really hard for a few days after Christmas to have them put away one thing before getting out something else. Part of it is my fault for not sticking with it  and part of the problem is they pull out many different things to play one thing. (Like dolls, playfood, blankets, and strollers all at once.)
I need some motiviation and stick-to-itivness for myself and discipline/consequence ideas for some very stubborn, strong-willed kids.
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Lindsey
Mama to DS (11), DD(9), twin dds(7), DD (5), DS (4), DS (3), and 5 angels in heaven.
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Angie Mc
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| Posted: Jan 25 2012 at 1:43pm | IP Logged
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Lindsey, I really shouldn't be responding at all. Quick obedience has never been our strong suit, by nature or nurture . Two things have helped me, though. The first was to not put too much pressure (or unreasonable expectations) on myself or the children for 100% immediate obedience. The second thing was to write things down (charts, pictures, etc.) to help us to stick to our highest priorities/plans. We simply couldn't do it all, all the time.
On a practical note, we do say, "Delayed obedience is disobedience." This makes sense to older children. And even with older kids, I tend to say it once and if they don't/won't/can't obey, I move from words to physical help and/or consequences. By physical I mean that I move (take a little ones hand and lead him to his work) or give a tangible consequence (like charging older kids a buck.)
Lindsey, your children are so very little. I'm sure that they are much more obedient than it feels! I'll pray that you find a few tips to help bring some mama relief.
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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kristinannie
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| Posted: Jan 25 2012 at 1:53pm | IP Logged
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I am listening to this because this is a huge problem in our house. I honestly think my lack of consistency is the main problem. Sometimes I have so much going on that I don't demand immediate compliance. My 4 year old daughter sounds exactly like yours although she will sit in timeout (we start timeouts really early). I am starting to think that timeouts aren't very effective though. I have started taking away things they want (like going somewhere or playing a game with the family) or taking one of their favorite toys. If you can solve this, then you will be a millionare!!!!
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mommy4ever
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| Posted: Jan 25 2012 at 1:58pm | IP Logged
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I have 4 of my own, and during the day I have 4, 3, 2 and infant in my care...
The 4 and 3 yo can be real handfuls. I'm all for them playing, and having fun. This is healthy. However running screaming, throwing toys... not so good.
We school around their schedules. I get much light and independent work done when they are up. This is practicing spelling, free reading, coloring. When the older kids need me to be hands on, I started a quiet time. This is usually before lunch, as a wind down to nap time. Everyone goes to their own spot in the room to 'read'. The 4yo looks at pages, the 3 yo, tends to quietly roll on the floor, and the 2 yo, is content to play with small stuffies. It wasn't easy to get it to happen. I took close to 6 weeks for them to accept it. Now, I state quiet time starts, and they race to get their things and into their places. This allows me to get the older kids wrapped up, any one on one reading, drills etc. And I make lunch at that time.
As to ready obedience... I haven't mastered that and my kids are 17, 14, 12 and 8. I have taken things away. To the point that they really had nothing left. It took that to really get them to clean up after themselves. When there is nothing left, and I started returning a few things at a time. It isn't easy, there is whining and fussing. Even tantrums...sigh. But it does help. I think the biggest trick is start taking away as soon they start slacking again. Once the timer is done, everyone goes to their rooms, and you finish the job. It's not about getting them to cry, it's about the lesson. I had an issue with ds17 being disrespectful, slamming doors, I had dh remove his door. He was much better after that. He is lucky to have his own room and not share, he needs to respect that. If he needs to change, he needs to use the washroom. He learned pretty quick that mom means business. He hasn't slammed a door on me since, and he was 10 or 11 when we did it.
For any method to work, it needs to be consistent, and it's very hard with more than one or 2 littles to care for. I'm there with you. If you're not consistent with it, they learn that it's a matter of time before they can get away with it.
I have the most challenges with my 12 and 8 yo.. they like to test me. We are doing lots of talking about consequences for actions.
There are times I would rather throw my hands in the air and give up, but that isn't what they need....
Feel free to message and vent any time :)
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DominaCaeli
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| Posted: Jan 25 2012 at 2:19pm | IP Logged
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A few scattered thoughts, Lindsey, from another mommy of a lot of littles whose home is very much a work in progress... 
:: We have a very small amount of toys out at a time, and it helps in a lot of ways, so I would suggest you make this a priority. I have heard it said that if there are more toys out than the children can manage to clean up in five minutes, then there are too many toys out! We have even fewer than that, and even then, my very mature, obedient almost-3yo gets overwhelmed with the task of putting toys away. So the fewer things, the better. I think this is especially true if your girls are fine with having their toys taken away--they don't miss them enough...which means there are too many.
:: When it's time to clean up, I put the little ones in charge of cleaning up one particular thing (just the dolls, or just the blocks, for example), and I have my two older children take care of everything else. Breaking the task into chunks seems to make it more manageable for my 2yo and 1yo, so that they actually do end up helping. If I just say "clean up," the big kids end up doing it all while the little ones loiter or whine or whatever. Not good habits.
:: Having a toy rotation helps things seem "new" when they do get taken out, so they keep the kids' attention for longer. I keep some toys aside for months, and when I'm having a bad/sick/busy day, I have those things in my "back pocket" to keep the kids extra-engaged. Bonus!
:: For me, it works best if I determine the rotation, not the kids. I put out the toys for that day, and that's what they play with. When they are older, they will have some say in what they want to use (and my 5yos already do, during the little ones' naptime), but for younger children, it seems easier not to give them so many choices. I know many say that you should give children choices whenever possible ("do you want to wear the blue shirt or the yellow shirt?" etc.), but I have found that to be unnecessarily time-intensive.  When they are older, I would like to do a check-out system of some sort, but for now, this is simpler.
:: That all said, allowing fewer toys at a time will probably not be greeted with much enthusiasm by your brood, so right now (with a new baby, and an upcoming move, if I'm remembering right?) may not be the best time to take it on. Moving to the new house might provide enough excitement that they will accept the toy change without as much grumbling...I don't know. Just a thought that the timing may not be right for you at this very moment. I would pick a time to start when you can really commit to it--don't overload yourself.
:: As for timeouts, there are ways to get a child to do a timeout other than Supernanny-style bootcamp. I would do some kind of Dr. Ray "blackout"--everything is up for grabs to be taken away from them until they have done their timeout. And I mean everything: the pillows and blankets on the bed, their favorite drinking cup, the foods they prefer, going in the backyard to play... Even for a 4yo, there has to be some currency that will make them do the timeout--if you can figure out what that is, you can use that to your advantage. I honestly don't like to make small things into big power struggles with my kids, but for me, it's absolutely essential that my little ones will go in timeout right when I tell them to! I do not have time to chase them around the house. If they will not, then that would be my priority.
Okay, sorry for rambling. Prayers for you, Lindsey! 
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Celeste
Joyous Lessons
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*Lindsey*
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| Posted: Jan 25 2012 at 2:28pm | IP Logged
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So many great ideas!!
Yes, my lack of consistency is definitely a large part of the problem. Some days I set the timer and take toys, other days I yell. I need to stick with it, for sure. I did realize that they must have too many toys out if the TWO trash bags full of stuff in the closet aren't missed.
I am loving the rotating toys idea. Once we (hopefully) move, that will be much easier than it is now. I will have more room to store things away. Packing will be an ideal time to weed out things, too!
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Lindsey
Mama to DS (11), DD(9), twin dds(7), DD (5), DS (4), DS (3), and 5 angels in heaven.
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*Lindsey*
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| Posted: Jan 25 2012 at 2:31pm | IP Logged
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DominaCaeli wrote:
:: As for timeouts, there are ways to get a child to do a timeout other than Supernanny-style bootcamp. I would do some kind of Dr. Ray "blackout"--everything is up for grabs to be taken away from them until they have done their timeout. And I mean everything: the pillows and blankets on the bed, their favorite drinking cup, the foods they prefer, going in the backyard to play... Even for a 4yo, there has to be some currency that will make them do the timeout--if you can figure out what that is, you can use that to your advantage. I honestly don't like to make small things into big power struggles with my kids, but for me, it's absolutely essential that my little ones will go in timeout right when I tell them to! I do not have time to chase them around the house. If they will not, then that would be my priority.
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This is definitely something for me to think about and discuss with DH. We have used blackout for DS and it's extremely effective. I never thought of trying it on Hazel and Lucy.
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Lindsey
Mama to DS (11), DD(9), twin dds(7), DD (5), DS (4), DS (3), and 5 angels in heaven.
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: Jan 25 2012 at 4:50pm | IP Logged
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I just had a great conversation with someone the other day who was talking about parenting and tone of voice. So, I'm just mentioning it as something to consider....it may not be at all helpful or applicable...but it's on my mind.....
Something to consider that is a societal-tendency-----> He was saying that moms and dads use much more of a sing-songy voice these days with their children and in general conversation. Esp. with children, the research shows that kids will doubt your sincerity and also your seriousness about something when they hear chant and singing involved while giving direction or suggestion.
Also, the tendency to inflect your voice at the end of every sentence (also a societal trend) that gives the impression that everything is a question? Is very confusing to kids. If it's a question, why on earth would they do it?
Just mentioning it, as it IS very important, I think, to analyze what on earth we SOUND like when we are giving direction our kiddos.
Some naturally err on the nicey-nicey-voice side of things. Kids won't take you seriously.
Some naturally err on the drill-sargeant-voice-side, and need to focus on adding a "gentle/loving" aspect to their directions/commands/convos.
:: Where do I fit in?
:: What does my husband think?
:: What does an unbiased third-party think?
:: Do I need to work on my tone of voice?
:: Am I too demanding?
:: Am I too nice?
:: Do I make it clear in my tone and in my words when I am expecting right-away-obedience from younger children?
:: Or do I give direction (for right away obedience) in a haphazard manner as with other random everyday-things?
I'm not saying, of course, that a random request spoken nicely should not immediately be obeyed by a 9 yo. But, a 4 yo needs more clear and obvious hints. (ie: change of tone, clear words, spoken simply, etc.)
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: Jan 25 2012 at 6:09pm | IP Logged
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Stopping playing and starting picking up is also a difficult transition. Sometimes a warning (we'll pick up in 5 minutes) can help children make that transition easier than otherwise. But just wanted to point out that it's not just obedience here but also a transition and transitions are always harder than other times.
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Becky Parker
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| Posted: Jan 26 2012 at 5:20am | IP Logged
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DominaCaeli wrote:
:: We have a very small amount of toys out at a time, and it helps in a lot of ways, so I would suggest you make this a priority. I have heard it said that if there are more toys out than the children can manage to clean up in five minutes, then there are too many toys out! We have even fewer than that, and even then, my very mature, obedient almost-3yo gets overwhelmed with the task of putting toys away. So the fewer things, the better. I think this is especially true if your girls are fine with having their toys taken away--they don't miss them enough...which means there are too many.
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We struggle here too, but I just wanted to say this has really helped with the cleaning up part. We cleared out our toy room (really our family room but it had become a toy room). Everything went into bins or boxes and was put in our storage room. The kids got to have 3 things out. That's it. So, since I have boys, those three things were Legos, army guys, and wooden blocks. Our only daughter, by this time was old enough to have her things in her room. Now,when the boys want to play with trucks or cars or their train set, they have to trade a bin or box. It does take my time to actually do the trade but what a difference it made. We now have our family room back and it's a pleasure to sit down there as a family and play a game (no more stepping on Legos with bare feet!).
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violingirl
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| Posted: Jan 26 2012 at 3:28pm | IP Logged
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We struggle with the same thing sometimes (my boys are 4.5 and 6)- there are a few things that have helped though.
:: I give a 5 minute warning before clean up an again about a minute before.
:: I limit our toys. Everything is in smallish buckets or boxes and they are only allowed 2 buckets at a time out to play with. They must put a bucket back to take another out. There are only 5 available to them at a time, so even if everything is dumped it doesn't take a full hour to clean up properly.
:: I do tell my 4yo what to clean up. As he puts something in the bucket I'll say things like "I see a superhero by the bed, and I see crayons out on the table" and that helps direct him.
:: My 4yo is the real whiner about cleaning up. There can literally be one toy on the floor to pick up and he will sit and cry that he "can't do it". Whenever he gets into that mode I make sure his world stops. There is nothing else until he has done his task- no cuddles, no food or drink, no leaving the room, and I don't talk to him either unless I'm saying something like "I sure wish E would pick up his toys so that we could do an art project" or "your job is to clean up right now". I don't yell or threaten- it's not a mean thing, just letting him know that I truly mean that he must do it *now*.
:: If he has more than two or three days in a row like that he has to stay right with me or DH for a full day the next day- he's not allowed the freedom to just go play. Yes, it's not such a fun day for me and takes a lot longer to accomplish some things, but he is super great for a few weeks after he's lost the privilege of that freedome to go play. I still let him look at books or play with 1 toy or something, but he has to do it on my time table- so if I don't have time to go with him to his room to get a toy he just has to wait.
The first time we did this he had to stay with us for three days straight over a long weekend- that was how long it took for him to realize that we were really serious- that was in early October. Since then I've had to do it for 1 day at a time on two other occasions.
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3ringcircus
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| Posted: Jan 26 2012 at 6:11pm | IP Logged
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I'm finding that I have to put more effort into their habits than I ever thought.
-no toys in the bedrooms. I can't supervise areas that I can't easily see, so for now, their toys are all stored in a single area. I don't mind if they use them occasionally in other parts of the house, but the toys don't "live" there. As they get older, I think they'll have their own space, but maybe it is something they'll have to earn, and keep neat in order to keep the privilege?
-limit toys in toy area (less is more). I kept pulling toys out, and they never even noticed! The ones they have and use regularly are, legos, wedgits, kitchen stuff, cars/transportation. There are a few other things in there, but even they don't get much use, and need to be donated. They use far less than I ever expected. I'm realizing that just because they played w/ something a few times doesn't mean it has to stay.
-rotate
-big drawers organized by type (I want to do picture labels soon). They aren't strong enough to pull out & dump. If they want to use those toys, they have to ask me. I can put the drawer in a spot I know they can easily keep neat.
-I have to be available during clean-up time because even the 6yo gets too overwhelmed to start, continue, and finish.
-"after you clean this, we will do this". Even if it's not the most fun thing in the world, they respond better with the knowledge that there's a sense of urgency. Doesn't that make all of us work a little faster?
I won't say that our toy area is always neat. Our yard, in particular, needs more of a system. But, it's amazing how much more obedient they are when the tasks are broken down and they can easily visualize what "finished" looks like. Also, for the first time in my parenting life, I've started tackling clutter w/ a vengeance. As the boys see me clean more, and they see a house w/ far less stuff, their habits are changing too! They are interested in the cleaning, and asking them to put things away, back to the clean state they were initially, is a lot easier than it used to be. I have more "artistic", messy tendencies, so the difference is really obvious to all of us.
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MNMommy
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| Posted: Jan 27 2012 at 3:30pm | IP Logged
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*Lindsey* wrote:
| The twins heard this, and I told them to clean up their toys and they could have some as well. They still aren't cleaning up. They always say, "HELP ME!" and I do to some extent, but they want me to clean it up for them and I just. can't. do. that. |
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I'm in the trenches as well, and my experience is that training 4yos takes a lot of hands-on time and patience. I don't think you need to do the work for them, but I do think you will need to be present managing the process.
A few ideas that are working for us:
My 5yo has graduated to having a small, designated area for picking up. It isn't overwhelming for him, and he is able to manage this little area well.
My 3yo gets tasks that either help me or are right by me. She sets the table while I make dinner, she straightens shoes while I wash laundry, etc.
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Jennifer
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mamaslearning
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| Posted: Jan 27 2012 at 4:42pm | IP Logged
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These are some great suggestions for toys! I'm going to use some of these ideas in our playroom.
Sorry, I'm right there with you so I have no advice. But, I'm listening intently to the great mothers on this board! 
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Lara
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Topic: Getting Cooperation/Right-away obedience
