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MamaFence
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| Posted: Jan 16 2012 at 5:38pm | IP Logged
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Ah, I can't tell the two apart! I guess it's all the same in a homeschooling family, right?
Let me share today as an example, and I hope I can gain some good advice from you experienced mamas!
My seven year old has just spent the better part of her day stomping around, pouting, crumpling her work, refusing to read aloud with me. My husband has been home today from work, so it's the first time he has seen a "bad" day like this.
In the morning, when she first started the drama, it was because I told her we were going to take turns reading a paragraph aloud. I began, and said, "Your turn!" At this point, she began whining and fussing in her seat about not liking to read aloud. I know she is shy about it, but can I really let her get away with not reading aloud all the time? I haven't asked her to read aloud for a long time, and figured it was about time we did some here and there.
For her refusal, I told her she would be expected to read a story to her younger brother. As she continued, and wasted my time, I let her know that she'd be making up the time by helping around the house more than we expect on a daily basis. (This is what we do now, when the girls act out and it cuts into my time, I have them help out with something for the same amount of time they wasted.)
After ten minutes, I sent her to calm down. Probably an hour later, she'd completed a different school-work task, and it was lunch-time. We all ate, and she washed dishes by hand to make up the time from earlier. Then, she did her math work while I prepped food in the kitchen. When I finished, I sat with her to correct a paper, then we started with the science and reading again. We got through the reading, reading nearly the whole thing aloud at the same time (though, if I paused so I could hear her better, she began to fuss and whine). Reading complete, on to the questions. Since we belong to a homeschool charter in California, we turn in work samples each month. I chose this lesson to be a sample from science, so the answers need to be written.
At the first of three, she threw a fit. "I don't know the answer! I can't find it..." and on and on. Finally, she writes it down, in ugly letters (which is unacceptable from her, she has beautiful writing). Her paper is a crinkled mess from her fidgeting. She's been giving me an attitude again, so I had her take out the trash. I've told her she needs to re-do the paper, because her work looks like trash.
I really believe that just because we're homeschooling, doesn't mean I shouldn't hold my children to high standards of work. It should be of high quality, the best they can personally do. I also expect them to behave, just as they'd be expected to in a classroom. Now, I don't expect them to raise their hand, be silent, etc., but her behavior today was bad.
How do I instill a better "work ethic" in her? How do I teach her that often, we have to do a task we don't like, without whining and fussing and making our work messy? DH said we should send her to boarding school (partly in honestly, partly in frustration) to teach her how to behave. I said, "Because you think we can't teach her better manners ourselves, as her parents?" He answered, "Well, she needs to learn that in a 'real-world' setting, this is unacceptable and she can't get away with it." I agree! But if we can't teach her that at home, how is her being in a school going to help?!
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DS 2yr (11.09)
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CatholicMommy
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| Posted: Jan 16 2012 at 8:03pm | IP Logged
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Ohohohoh. I need to find that article again....
Just a couple of months ago, there was an article on homeschooling going around a bit - about homeschooling magnifying behavior problems (maybe the word wasn't magnifying, but something like that).
I shared the article with my son's speech therapist - and she totally agrees.
The idea being that if we are away from the children all day and only have to deal with "the issues" for a few hours, we see them as less than they actually are. For example, if my son attended school, I would likely attribute some of his quirks and attitude issues to "he's tired; they let him get away with too much at school; the bad example of the other kids" - but I homeschool. So I KNOW these issues of my son's, are his issues. And something we NEED to work on.
And my own issues? Yep. They're magnified too! Overachiever? Perfectionist? YEP! Million times worse now I'm a mom AND a homeschooler! 
So. I'm not suggesting to blow it off - there is definitely something that needs to be worked on. I just wanted to share that sometimes the first step is to put it all into perspective.
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Kathryn
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| Posted: Jan 16 2012 at 8:58pm | IP Logged
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MamaFence wrote:
| How do I instill a better "work ethic" in her? How do I teach her that often, we have to do a task we don't like, without whining and fussing and making our work messy? |
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One day at a time; one task at a time. 
ETA: My DS is 11 and we STILL struggle with this. For some, I think it's just a personality issue and one for which the tunnel of homeschooling sometimes seems very dark and long.
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: Jan 16 2012 at 9:40pm | IP Logged
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So it sounds to me like you surprised her with reading aloud, a distasteful task for her, and one she thought she'd already finished with because you'd stopped doing it. Perhaps if she had some control and there's no reason if she's self-conscious about it to do it during a time when everyone in the house isn't listening in. Maybe before bed relaxed comfy in bed, no one but mom (or dad) with her and you start with a single sentence and that's enough until she's more comfy with that and then she reads 2 sentences etc. Build up to what you want instead of a whole paragraph that probably seems HUGE.
Then you compounded it by also doing written work one the same day when she would often be able to do the work orally?
Dad was home.. that's enough to throw anyone's schedule off and make it hard to stay with the same old routine.
Basically, it really sounds like she had a lot of changes including things she dislikes and simply didn't handle it all well.
I also tend to find that if I have a child that will use being sent to their room to pout (self-talk into being a victim - mom is so mean, I didn't do anything wrong, everyone hates me, etc) that it's better to find a way to disengage and still keep an eye on the calming down process. I like having them stand at the wall near me. No one else is near them and there's nothing terribly interesting going on, and they have full control over when they're ready to leave the wall by calming down and changing the attitude.
I do understand that some children need that safe room to go and get calm, I was pointing out that some children don't use it that way.
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All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
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Claire F
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| Posted: Jan 16 2012 at 10:41pm | IP Logged
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I'm not sure I have any great advice as far as what to do about the behavior, but I do agree with how you feel - that she should be expected to behave well, regardless of whether she's in a classroom or learning at home. Obviously the expectations will be somewhat different, but at least in our home, I am working on making sure expectations of behavior and quality/effort are still there.
Since we had a year of public school kindergarten last year, it is easy for me to ask my son, "If you were in Mrs. T's class, would you be acting like this?" He'll say no, and I can remind him that it isn't ok at home either.
I do think it's good to expect your child to try their best in their schoolwork. I'm trying to keep to that standard here as well.
I've also noticed that there are some days when I have to alter my plans because he's just in a mood. It isn't that I want to let him get away with acting up - more that I'm trying to prevent the acting up in the first place. If he's really struggling to concentrate on something, we'll switch gears and work on something different and I might skip a lesson or activity that I suspect won't go over well that day.
Just a few random thoughts :).
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kristinannie
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| Posted: Jan 17 2012 at 8:02am | IP Logged
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It seems to me like your whole day turned into a power struggle. You were becoming more and more strict about what was required in school as a way to get the power back and she was fighting more and more against it. This is a really easy trap to fall into, especially if you are like me and grew up in a house with a parent who exerted a lot of power. I really try to avoid a power struggle because it really causes more friction in the day and I don't think it is possible for a parent to truly win a power struggle.
My 5 year old has similar issues. He is a perfectionist and we have A LOT of issues with that to deal with. I am also a recovering perfectionist so I have an added interest in helping him overcome this at a young age (instead of dealing with it as an adult like I have had to do).
First of all, on days when my husband is home, I often expect things to go a little haywire. It throws the kids off (and my husband has at least one day a week off when we do school). I often try and find an errand for him to run while we are doing school in the morning. I also fall into a trap when my husband is home of trying to show him how well the kids are doing or have a "perfect" day of school, especially since he is so on the fence about homeschooling long term. I really think this throws off the whole day even more. I think it is important to be careful of this temptation.
As far as the reading goes, I wouldn't make her read aloud to the whole family at age 7 if she isn't ready. My son is VERY shy about reading and usually only wants to read to me. If that is the case, I will oblige. I make sure that the whole family is excited about his reading so he is more open to reading aloud now. If you are going to have her read aloud, would it be possible to warn her in advance and even let her look over the selection first so she can make sure there aren't any unfamiliar words? I do think having her read aloud is very important, but maybe it should be done in private for awhile. Maybe she could always get a treat when she reads aloud.
I have also seen days completely snowball once inattention or attitudes have kicked in. I still go with the CM method of distraction since my kids are still little. I completely change the routine in a fun way. We will do some painting or do some nature study outside. We will read a really fun read aloud snuggled on the couch. Once we finish that, it is so much easier to just return to where we left off. A lot of times, my kids start acting out when they need to burn off some energy. Our new energy release system (since it is winter), is to have the child run around our steps 12 times screaming as loud as they can. My son thinks it is awesome to run around the stairs screaming in the house (since that is never allowed). He uses up all of his energy and really just gets it all out of his system. I tend to do this when he falls out of his chair for the 3rd time in 5 min. 
One final thought: consider starting the day with circle time/morning basket time. I thought this practice was overrated by the people who use it. I didn't want school to last longer and didn't really see the point. I decided to start trying it this semester and it has changed EVERYTHING. The kids love it. The toddler even loves it (even though he doesn't stay in the circle and is usually climbing on someone). It gives my toddler some attention before we go do school so he is less disruptive. We do a couple of read alouds (one for the toddler as well), we sing and dance, we practice our German, we do memorization and calendar, we say morning prayers, the list really goes on and on. It lasts about 30-45 minutes, but it gets the day off on the right foot as a family and we get to do a lot of things that we never had time for. I have noticed on days when we don't do it for whatever reason (usually because the toddler sleeps late and I want to try and do school before he wakes up), the whole day goes less smoothly! Give it a try!!!
I just want to offer you some words of encouragement. I also believe that we should be able to train the kids up at home. I am amazed by what Catholic Mommy said about things being magnified at home. I think this is really true. We are able to better see what our children's faults are since we are with them all day and love them so much. This helps us be better able to help them overcome these as children. I actually have a friend who homeschools, but sends all her kids to kindergarten. Her son has a severe stuttering problem, but every time she is at a teacher conference, the teacher always says she doesn't notice it. The teacher has 30 students and just doesn't notice it. That amazed me!
The best advice I can give you is to pray about it. My 5 year old is extremely challenging to me. Honestly, it is mostly because he is exactly like me. I pray about it almost daily and God has really shown me ways of handling things that I would never have thought of. God gives us each the grace to raise the children he gives us. He will never leave us alone to raise our children because he loves our children even more than we do.
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kristinannie
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| Posted: Jan 17 2012 at 10:06am | IP Logged
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I had to laugh because this morning we had a TERRIBLE day of school. The kids kept whining that they were hungry (even though they ate a lot at breakfast 5 min earlier), they were thirsty and my son fell out of his chair a record number of times. I had to use up all of my advice and then some!  I think they want to go outside because it is sunny and looks nice so they couldn't concentrate, but it is REALLY cold and REALLY windy so it's a no go. Hopefully the post break session of science and history will go better! Just wanted to let you know that everyone has these types of days... I am convinced this is how God gets us into Heaven! 
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AmandaV
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| Posted: Jan 17 2012 at 5:15pm | IP Logged
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CatholicMommy wrote:
Ohohohoh. I need to find that article again....
Just a couple of months ago, there was an article on homeschooling going around a bit - about homeschooling magnifying behavior problems (maybe the word wasn't magnifying, but something like that).
I shared the article with my son's speech therapist - and she totally agrees.
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I think this is the article you are referring to: Homeschooling Magnifies family issues ( and that's a good thing!)
I really liked the perspective Jennifer Fulwiler shares in this article. Of course, once the light is shone on our problems.. and our children's.. we have to figure out what to do about them. I think sometimes they aren't as noticeable when kids are at school all day. For one, children react differently to the school environment, and parents don't necessarily see any bad attitude if it does exist.
And those of you who discussed power struggles, and changes that the child will react to when so sudden - super helpful to me! I think with how busy I am with the other children and duties, I often spring things on my son. So, listening for all the great wisdom here. :)
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Kathryn
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AmandaV wrote:
| And those of you who discussed power struggles, and changes that the child will react to when so sudden - super helpful to me! I think with how busy I am with the other children and duties, I often spring things on my son. So, listening for all the great wisdom here. :) |
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SOO TRUE! Since yesterday was a holiday and all the neighbor kids were out of school, I let my kids play all day. HOWEVER, I had it in my head that DS was going to do 1 math worksheet and we were going to read another chapter in his book before bed. Welll...I suppose I SHOULD have let him know ahead of time b/c after dinner he was NOT in the mood for school work and in hindsight I did totally spring it on him...even if it had been brewing in my head all day. So, today was co-op and I told him he could play since he had been in class all day but then he needed to complete his 1 math worksheet before bed. Lo and behold, he went and did it before dinner without complaint, arguing, whining...just done!
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SallyT
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| Posted: Jan 17 2012 at 9:34pm | IP Logged
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My younger daughter just turned 8, and a lot of this sounds very familiar . . .
One thing which just occurred to me as I was thinking about your situation and my own is that we tend to think that homeschooling is a lower-pressure situation than school-schooling, but I'm not entirely sure that that's really the case.
Here's what I mean:
In school, certainly there are demands and standards and deadlines, which can be stressful, not to mention difficulties with other children. At the same time, in the classroom itself, the teacher isn't scrutinizing any one particular child all the time, or even most of the time. Her attention is diffused, and a given child can avoid having the spotlight turned on him or her a lot of the time.
At home, even with a number of children, any one child can expect to have a lot of attention, and while we rightly think of this as a good thing, from the child's point of view it may feel as though the spotlight is on her all the time. During her reading lesson, for example, it's never any other kid's turn to read. During math, nobody else is working a problem in front of the class and the teacher. It's all that one kid, and all the attention is focused on whether she, and nobody else, is doing the work right or not. So while we tend to think of homeschooling as an answer to performance anxiety, I think for some kids (like both my daughters) the one-on-one with Mom actually makes that anxiety worse, or at least doesn't seem to ameliorate it all that much. Somehow in their minds it's worse for me to see them make a mistake than it ever was for a teacher to see them make a mistake (though my oldest daughter, who was the only one of my kids to spend any significant time in school, took her performance anxiety with her everywhere she went until about ninth grade . . . ).
Anyway, all that to say that sometimes we have to accept that these frustrations, as with the reading incident, are real. And when children are frustrated, they act out. I've found it helpful to try to meet my current 8-year-old where she is, to try to minimize situations which are going to escalate through frustration into inappropriate behaviors and a day of clashing with me.
Last year, when we were doing a lot of buddy-reading together, we had days just like what you've described, with her not wanting to read much, or not wanting to read the reader I'd chosen, or whatever. We had some bad days over things like this, but when I could step back, take a breath, and work with her, rather than trying to make her accomplish the task my way, things went better. Sometimes we took things sentence by sentence, and then when she ran out of steam, I read the rest. Sometimes we read the whole thing together in unison. Sometimes it helped for me to let her pick another book. Sometimes we had reading lessons that weren't really lessons -- I'd have her help me cook something and read the recipe, or read aloud the directions to some other school assignment. We accomplished reading practice, but we worked together to make it fit *her*, and to seem not like a situation in which she had to perform for me.
This, incidentally, is something I've seen classroom teachers do. My oldest daughter struggled with handwriting in school -- she went to school in England, where penmanship seems to be taught as a life-or-death kind of thing (because of handwritten A-level exams for university entrance), and she struggled mightily with handwriting for several years. At last, when she was about 8, she got a sympathetic teacher who noticed that every time she wrote, she was so nervous that she pushed the pencil right through the paper. So he made a note to himself not to remark on her writing at all until she could manage to relax about it. This was in the face of very clear educational objectives which he had to observe, but obviously she wasn't going to succeed at handwriting while she was ripping up the paper with the pencil, and his decision was absolutely right for her at that time. (and now she's an English major at the University of Dallas, so she did get comfortable with writing eventually).
So in terms of the academic issues which seem to be triggering these conflicts, I think it might help to remember that as much as they can, classroom teachers try to adapt, too. How much they can adapt a lesson for each individual child is obviously limited; most good teachers wish they had the time and resources to craft a customized program for each child in each class they teach. I think you can feel confident in adapting your methods to enable your child to learn -- by doing tiny amounts of read-aloud consistently, for example, and maybe in private where she doesn't have an audience. My daughter actually likes to read to the dog . . . he's very uncritical. Whatever works . . . and when she began to want to read to herself all the time, I let her. Occasionally we have conversations about what she's reading, but I don't grill her about it -- I just try casually to make sure she's understanding what she reads.
I went through a phase of thinking this child would never read independently, but now she does. The important thing, really, is that a child WANTS to read, which is less likely to be the case if reading is made a chore or a punishment. If you want her to read aloud, but she doesn't want to do it in the context of a formal lesson, with you as teacher focusing on her, you might ask her, as a favor to you, to read her little brother a story while you're cooking dinner, as a junior babysitter (maybe you could even think of some small way to compensate her, as you would a mother's helper -- not by money, necessarily, but by some kind of treat). You accomplish the same end, which is to have her read aloud, but in a context in which she's not on the spot to perform for you as her judge. I know that's how my daughters have tended to see me in situations like this -- as someone who's judging them -- even though I don't mean to be that way at all, and it makes me crazy that that's their operating assumption. Maybe it's just a mother-daughter thing. But I find I get a lot farther when I make my daughter a partner with me, as if I'm trusting her and assuming that she can take on responsibility.
I've had that messy-writing/crumpled-paper thing, too. It's maddening in my current 8yo, because of all my kids, she's the most capable of producing beautiful writing. But when she does something like that, it is a frustration signal -- either with the work or with herself, because she can't do it perfectly enough. Her own standards, I find, are higher than mine, and are kind of self-defeating. The best strategy I've found (if I can keep my own cool) is simply to let it go for the time being -- "All right, I think we're finished with that, let's just put it away" -- and then come back to it the next day when we're all fresh, and maybe say, "Now, I know that you can do beautiful work, so let's try this again."
I do know what you mean about high standards. We have them, too -- I've been both a high-school and a college teacher, and my husband's a professor, and academics are kind of what we live and breathe. I really believe, though, that the best foundation we can lay when our children are young is to give them a love for books and other forms of learning -- to make them want to learn and know and understand. And I think that works best when we're working with them and sharing in the experience as fellow learners -- as people who love the books they're reading as much as they do, or who teach them that love by example. Our best days happen when I can manage to remember this; our lousy days happen when I don't.
I hope this helps. I really am writing out of total sympathy, because I've had days wherein I could have written the exact same thing.
Sally
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SallyT
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Oh, and re "real-life" situations -- what's more "real life" than the family? She will learn, and the best way to learn is in a situation which nurtures the habit of good behavior, so that it just comes to be a natural response. Easier said than done sometimes . . . but true, I think!
Sally
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Claire F
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SallyT wrote:
I do know what you mean about high standards. We have them, too -- I've been both a high-school and a college teacher, and my husband's a professor, and academics are kind of what we live and breathe. I really believe, though, that the best foundation we can lay when our children are young is to give them a love for books and other forms of learning -- to make them want to learn and know and understand. And I think that works best when we're working with them and sharing in the experience as fellow learners -- as people who love the books they're reading as much as they do, or who teach them that love by example. Our best days happen when I can manage to remember this; our lousy days happen when I don't. |
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I love this. A great reminder for me as well - I want to have high academic standards for my kids, but I need to keep in mind my objective for our homeschool - and that is to create a love of learning, not just cram stuff into their heads whether they like it or not. I waffle between extremes sometimes (at least in my thinking) - between wanting my son to behave just so and sit and listen and be attentive no matter what (because he needs discipline for goodness sakes! I say to myself), and at the other end, being loose and letting him do what interests him and wanting to make sure I'm not pushing too hard or making learning a chore. I think there's a happy medium in there for my family, and like many of us, I'm contiually working to find it.
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SallyT
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| Posted: Jan 18 2012 at 8:05am | IP Logged
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Also, just for brainstorming purposes, I'd like to know more about the science lesson. Was she being asked to read a passage, then go back and find answers to questions?
Some thoughts:
I teach our parish First-Communion class, and what I observe about second-graders as a class (7-8yos) is that simple things like turning a page so that they're on the page we're working on are much, much harder than you would expect. That sounds crazy, but really: a roomful of second graders takes a good two minutes sometimes just to turn from page 4 to page 5, with everyone ending up in the right place. For us adults, turning back to a passage we've read to look for an answer is automatic, but it's not for them -- it's a process they have to learn.
So you might minimize her frustration with something like that by guiding her through the process of finding the answer and demonstrating how she would do that. You could turn together to the right page, and then you might point out the paragraph where the answer is to be found, and start to read it aloud, telling her to tell you to stop when you've read the answer she's looking for.
At 7, for turned-in written samples, I'd be inclined to have the child dictate answers to me, then copy in her own writing what I had written down. That way spelling is correct, and handwriting tends to be neater because the child isn't simultaneously trying to think and write. That's another process that we take for granted -- I can be thinking out what I'm saying to you and typing at the speed that I'm thinking. My 8yo is better at this than she was last year, particularly with her own independent written projects (she's one of those write-y/draw-y children), but if I'm looking for a particular kind of written output, I still find it helpful to let her do the initial thinking without writing, then write down what she can *see* that she thought, if that makes sense.
I really think many of your disciplinary difficulties will evaporate as you're more able to discern what's going to be a successful learning experience for that particular child -- and that's a process, too, with its own frustrations for Mom.
OK, I'm not going to flood this thread any more! But I will send up a prayer for you for better days!
Sally
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MamaFence
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| Posted: Jan 18 2012 at 4:48pm | IP Logged
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JodieLyn wrote:
| So it sounds to me like you surprised her with reading aloud, a distasteful task for her, and one she thought she'd already finished with because you'd stopped doing it. |
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Oh, you're probably right about this. I hadn't even considered that. oops.
kristinannie wrote:
I have also seen days completely snowball once inattention or attitudes have kicked in. I still go with the CM method of distraction since my kids are still little. I completely change the routine in a fun way. We will do some painting or do some nature study outside. We will read a really fun read aloud snuggled on the couch. Once we finish that, it is so much easier to just return to where we left off. A lot of times, my kids start acting out when they need to burn off some energy. Our new energy release system (since it is winter), is to have the child run around our steps 12 times screaming as loud as they can. My son thinks it is awesome to run around the stairs screaming in the house (since that is never allowed). He uses up all of his energy and really just gets it all out of his system. I tend to do this when he falls out of his chair for the 3rd time in 5 min.
One final thought: consider starting the day with circle time/morning basket time. I thought this practice was overrated by the people who use it. I didn't want school to last longer and didn't really see the point. I decided to start trying it this semester and it has changed EVERYTHING. The kids love it. The toddler even loves it (even though he doesn't stay in the circle and is usually climbing on someone). It gives my toddler some attention before we go do school so he is less disruptive. We do a couple of read alouds (one for the toddler as well), we sing and dance, we practice our German, we do memorization and calendar, we say morning prayers, the list really goes on and on. It lasts about 30-45 minutes, but it gets the day off on the right foot as a family and we get to do a lot of things that we never had time for. I have noticed on days when we don't do it for whatever reason (usually because the toddler sleeps late and I want to try and do school before he wakes up), the whole day goes less smoothly! Give it a try!!!
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I like this idea, of distraction! I should do it more often. I also appreciate your thoughts on circle time. When I've heard about it, I have thought "how silly, and not for me"...but maybe it would be good. We'd get our music in, our saint and prayer in, anything else "extra" that I always want to do but never do.
SallyT wrote:
At 7, for turned-in written samples, I'd be inclined to have the child dictate answers to me, then copy in her own writing what I had written down. That way spelling is correct, and handwriting tends to be neater because the child isn't simultaneously trying to think and write. That's another process that we take for granted -- I can be thinking out what I'm saying to you and typing at the speed that I'm thinking. My 8yo is better at this than she was last year, particularly with her own independent written projects (she's one of those write-y/draw-y children), but if I'm looking for a particular kind of written output, I still find it helpful to let her do the initial thinking without writing, then write down what she can *see* that she thought, if that makes sense.
I really think many of your disciplinary difficulties will evaporate as you're more able to discern what's going to be a successful learning experience for that particular child -- and that's a process, too, with its own frustrations for Mom.
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Sally, all your thoughts have been helpful! Dictating and copying might work very well.
We ended up reading that assignment together, we're still working on answering two of the three questions. It is what it is, and I keep reminding myself that written work and "evidence" of learning isn't what it is all about.
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Gina, mother to 4
DD 7yr (11.04)
DD 5yr (6.06)
DS 3yr (6.08)
DS 2yr (11.09)
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CrunchyMom
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SallyT wrote:
| My daughter actually likes to read to the dog . . . he's very uncritical. |
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Our old library actually has a program for this where people volunteer to bring their dogs so that children can read aloud to them one on one.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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CatholicMommy
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That's the one! Thank you for linking it!
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Garden of Francis
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: School/home discipline
