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Kathryn
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So, 2nd "mothering" question of the day here but seems to be where our teaching needs to be at the moment. DS 11 NEVER thinks he's done something wrong...no matter what it is. Do you continue to try and get the child to see the error of his ways or just discipline or ?
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JodieLyn
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I'm not sure exactly what you mean? I think all of mine (well the two oldest so far) go through a "nothing is my fault" stage.. but it's more an "everything is someone else's fault". Like they're in trouble for an argument with a sibling and their answer is that the sibling "made me so mad.."
I simply start reiterating that this is about what they did, not what anyone else did. And it often includes standing against the wall near me so that they can't go off and talk themselves into being the victim without responsibility for the issue.
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Kathryn
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Well, DD 13 and even DD 4 seem to "listen to reason" when I explain why they shouldn't do something or why something was wrong and then will even offer heartfelt apologies (sometimes in their own time). But, DS NEVER listens to reason. He NEVER thinks he's at fault. He continues to mumble and groan that "I didn't do anything"; "It's not my fault"; "She did it first"; "If she didn't..." or "If she did..."
He seems so intent on being the "victim" like you say in every.single.thing. He never wants to apologize b/c he thinks he's done nothing wrong. And when he does it's a very grumbly "sorry". Then he'll keep moaning and groaning and going on and on.
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Betsy
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I am wondering if this is more of a DS vs DD type thing? Reason doesn't seem to be a part of my boys vocabulary! 
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anitamarie
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I have one who does this, too. He's our oldest and very sensitive. If we point out to him that he's done something wrong, he will often attempt to deflect our attention/discipline to another sibling. For example, "When so-and-so does (something entirely unrelated to the offense at hand), you don't discipline him." Or blames the other person involved.
We simply do what Jodielyn does, redirect back to the offense and perpetrator at hand. It can be very frustrating. It can take a while. This child in particular wants so badly to do everything right, that he doesn't like to admit he's done something wrong. In a way, it stems from him not wanting to disappoint us, too.
Good luck figuring it out.
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Anita
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Kathryn wrote:
Well, DD 13 and even DD 4 seem to "listen to reason" when I explain why they shouldn't do something or why something was wrong and then will even offer heartfelt apologies (sometimes in their own time). But, DS NEVER listens to reason. He NEVER thinks he's at fault. He continues to mumble and groan that "I didn't do anything"; "It's not my fault"; "She did it first"; "If she didn't..." or "If she did..."
He seems so intent on being the "victim" like you say in every.single.thing. He never wants to apologize b/c he thinks he's done nothing wrong. And when he does it's a very grumbly "sorry". Then he'll keep moaning and groaning and going on and on. |
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I've been wondering this SAME thing. My 10YO DS is exactly this way. ALL THE TIME. He could be halfway across the house and trip on something and somehow he'll find a way to blame someone else.
I always attributed it to his perfectionist tendencies. He never wants to be wrong, or less-than perfect. It is a real challenge to get him to reconciliation. He'll be in tears and refuse to go.
I'd welcome any suggestions!! Please tell me it's a phase!!
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CrunchyMom
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I'm sure it is at least PARTLY a ds thing since how many men do you know who are quick to apologize and admit guilt? Hmmmm???  
I think it must be tied to some primal thing about not appearing weak or vulnerable or something...
And yet, they must learn to do it.
This seems to me to be one of those things where it would be useful to apply Charlotte Mason's technique of reading literature with the desired attitudes and actions modeled.
Since my boys are on a Greek Myth kick and have listened to the Jim Weiss cd OVER AND OVER this week, my first thought is to the story of Hercules cleaning the Augean stables or any of the seven labors. Whatever version of the story you read, he has to do penance for something he didn't really intend to do.
I'll bet you'd get lots of ideas from others brainstorming if that interested you. It would seem that the root virtue needed here is humility, and I imagine you could find a lot of stories related to this from all different sources, myths, saints, and children's lit.
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cathhomeschool
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I have one like this too. And I do think it's largely a perfectionist thing and a fear of disappointing. Often he'll say "Well I didn't know!" with distress when he's done a chore or task incorrectly. I simply reassure him that I know he didn't know and it's okay and that's why I'm teaching him, not because I expected him to know. With things he's "done wrong" (problems with siblings, etc) I keep bringing focus back to his part in the problem and ask him to work on himself. If he insists that he's done no wrong then I tell him that he needs to refrain from X behavior in the future but I don't try to convince him that he's wrong. Often the problem is that one says 'He hit me.' and the other will say 'No I didn't.' Discipline -- I tend to employ 'work it out' 'make it up to your brother' type stuff so it applies whether someone admits it's their fault or not. The fact remains that there's a problem, a hurt, and there needs to be a resolution. I give both sides the opportunity to say what happened and both the opportunity to "defend" or explain what the other says. There are definitely consequences sometimes but the older mine get the more I try to focus on the coming back together.
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jawgee
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CrunchyMom wrote:
| It would seem that the root virtue needed here is humility, and I imagine you could find a lot of stories related to this from all different sources, myths, saints, and children's lit. |
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Oh, good point!! Studying the virtue of humility! I'm going to work on finding some read-alouds for that.
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Kathryn
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Ironically, we read one of the Little Stories for Bigger Folks last night and it was about how the 5 year old sister wasn't supposed to pick the berries and eat them so she had her 2 yr old sister pick them and then told her dad that she didn't do anything wrong. So, of course in making the story wrap up neat and pretty, the dad talked about how the worst wrong was in leading her innocent sister to do wrong.
So, the biggest issue today was when I overheard DS 11 whispering to DD 4 about "go upstairs and play the Wii...". The rule is that no one goes upstairs without permission (there's only the game room) and no electronics until end of school time. So, in this particular instance, I looked at him and said "you're doing exactly what that little girl did in the story last night. you're leading your sister to sin and disobey the house rules." That's when I got the whole "I didn't do anything".
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JodieLyn
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I just found my phrase as mentioned above and disengage... if I'm not involved emotionally and just keep pointing the child back to personal responsibility regardless of what the others did.. and I keep that child near me letting them know that their time standing at the wall is entirely dependant on their correcting their own attitude.. that we do eventually get somewhere. They're not allowed to fall into a cycle of self pity because they're not alone where they can talk themselves into it. And their incentive to change how they're acting is in being able to do something other than stand against the wall near mom.
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cathhomeschool
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JodieLyn wrote:
| And their incentive to change how they're acting is in being able to do something other than stand against the wall near mom. |
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We've run into the problem that sometimes some are willing to say what it takes to get out of time out (and with a smiling face) but their heart has not truly changed. So I try to aim any discussion at getting to the heart. And I totally agree with not letting them go off and nurture the "victim" or self-pity attitude and that keeping my emotions disengaged is key!
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JodieLyn
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That's true Janette.. though since I tell them it's the attitude that needs changing simply challenging the false face is usually enough to cause it to fall apart.
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Kathryn
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Here's another example from tonight:
Baby screeches when she's finished eating so DS decides to encourage this behavior by doing it too. She screeches, he screeches, she screeches, he screeches. WE usu. put our finger to our lips and look at the baby to discourage her from doing this and she GETS it and she's 1!
ME to DS: STOP that. DS: I didn't do anything.
I don't see how this can be a perfectionist thing. May be on some occasions but sometimes he's just downright annoying and esp. since he's 11 and his sisters are only 4 and 1. He needs a LOT of work on himself but it seems to take an inordinate amount of time in my day to deal with his constant shenanigans.  
I guess it really is all his attitude. That's the heart of the matter...his attitude. May be because he's one boy amidst 3 girls but I'm not seeing any relief from how he acts and reacts esp. to his younger sisters.
Dad's home...thank goodness!!!!!
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CrunchyMom
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Hmmm, well, that sounds like a very boy thing--the screeching annoying stuff.
Does he get enough time to run around outside? Does he have opportunities to play with other boys and make lot s of screeching, bombing, shooting, and other various sounds where they won't annoy you? Boys havea LOT of these sounds in them. If I don't get the boys outside, dinner is usually more than I can stand.
Do you think he might be bored? My oldest is more likely to torment his brothers if he feels bored. Now he reads a lot, but the window between his growing out of "little" kid and reading independently was tough that way, especially since it seemed to come out of nowhere.
I think it is often easier in the long term to figure out what triggers the bad behavior and prevent it than it is to correct it.
But, from the example you gave, my first thought was that you weren't specific. Things go better when I'm specific. So instead of "Sop that," I might say,"Don't screech at the baby." Actually, it would more likely come out, "Do NOT screech at the baby " But still, specific
In the first example, I might say, " I heard you tell your sister... You know the rules, no wii..." And then, I would probably be intentionally vague when referencing the story, "Maybe we need to reread that story we read about the little girl..." or "what happened last night in that story with the girl? What was it she did?"
I think that Charlotte Mason was opposed to using the stories in a preachy way. But simply bringing up the story or asking questions about it gives you a reference while forcing HIM to think and make the connections on his own.
And, depending on my mood, I find it more effective *try*and be somewhat playful instead of accusatory. So, after he told me what she did in the story, I might lightly say, "You would never do anything like that, would you?" And if he still denied doing anything, I might almost sarcastically agree with him, "Oh yes, I'm sure" (eta: in atone that clearly means I don't believe him) or possibly "Yes? Because you know, if I ever caught you doing that in the future..."
Now that isn't to say I don't seriously address things at times, but I try to have a mixed arsenal And playing my hand in a playful way can sort of keep me from engaging in an argument. I haven't let him get away with anything, and yet, his admission of guilt or not is irrelevant. I think, too, it helps communicate just how silly his denial sounds.
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Kathryn
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Disengage? Hmmmm...not so easy to do for my high wired, emotinally charged self.  I *know* there are advantages to my type of personality but being in the realm of parenting, it's hard.
Having a sense of humor? I used to think my DH married me partly for my sense of humor and it seems that is missing many days in the hum drum of get it done.
He does have quite a bit of opportunities to get out the "boy" stuff with the neighbor boys but this week has been cold and rainy so not near as much this week.
And preachy? Well, yeh, that must come from my Baptist background.
I did try it tonight when I *KNEW* he gave me a half truth, I did the "ohhh...really?" He kind of looked at me like he didn't know what to say. Then I just said (with big smile) "in a courtroom, people say, I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth". Continued big smile from me.  The wheels in his brain seemed to be turning. I believe the point was taken.
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CatholicMommy
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I was reading this initially thinking "I think my son does this from time to time" ("from time to time" being the operative words there).
AHEM. My son (age 7) has done nothing BUT claim he has done nothing wrong (even when I'm NOT accusing him!) all day, every day, since I first read this thread (Thursday!?).
OH MY. I'm not even accusing him!!! (have I said that yet!?)
(he leaves his dirty dishes in the living room (we're in a small apartment and our "dining room" is one end of the living room, with NO eating space in the kitchen unless we stand at the counter --- his are the *only* dishes in the living room at the time))
Me, not wanting an argument: "J, I am washing dishes now; please check the living room for any dishes."
J: "I didn't leave any dishes in the living room!"
Me: "Just bring me whatever is there, please."
J: "These are YOUR dishes. Not mine."
Me: "That's ok. I just need them so I can wash dishes. Please go back to what you were doing now."
J: "Well I didn't leave them in there."
Me: ROLL EYES (to his back)
He such a HELPFUL child, he strives to be kind and courteous - he hates lying of any form, EXCEPT THIS ONE. He just can't take the blame for something, in such an extreme way as to think he's taking the blame even when no blame is being given!
Yep. It's an odd one.
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cathhomeschool
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JodieLyn wrote:
| That's true Janette.. though since I tell them it's the attitude that needs changing simply challenging the false face is usually enough to cause it to fall apart. |
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Let's just say that's not *always* the way it happens aroudn here...  I think that has a lot to do with age as I do see changes.
CatholicMommy wrote:
Me, not wanting an argument: "J, I am washing dishes now; please check the living room for any dishes."
J: "I didn't leave any dishes in the living room!"
Me: "Just bring me whatever is there, please."
J: "These are YOUR dishes. Not mine."
Me: "That's ok. I just need them so I can wash dishes. Please go back to what you were doing now."
J: "Well I didn't leave them in there."
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LOL. I get that same conversation here!! *The key* for me is to not engage (which is exactly what you did). Some days I fail miserably.
Kathryn wrote:
| Disengage? Hmmmm...not so easy to do for my high wired, emotinally charged self. I *know* there are advantages to my type of personality but being in the realm of parenting, it's hard. |
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That's me to the letter. There are major fruits to keeping the lid on yourself and not engaging, though! Children are wonderful at pointing out the areas in which we can use some growth.
When mine are being annoying to each other (the screeching thing) I send the offending parties outside or to their rooms. "But I didn't do anything!" "I didn't say you did. You need to go outside and get some energy out." Or "I didn't do anything!" "I asked you to stop arguing and you didn't. You can go to your room and argue by yourself." (Sometimes I encourage them towards obedience by adding "Yes Ma'am is the only answer.") I do think boredom and personality are large factors in the screeching type things.
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CatholicMommy
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cathhomeschool wrote:
CatholicMommy wrote:
Me, not wanting an argument: "J, I am washing dishes now; please check the living room for any dishes."
J: "I didn't leave any dishes in the living room!"
Me: "Just bring me whatever is there, please."
J: "These are YOUR dishes. Not mine."
Me: "That's ok. I just need them so I can wash dishes. Please go back to what you were doing now."
J: "Well I didn't leave them in there."
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LOL. I get that same conversation here!! *The key* for me is to not engage (which is exactly what you did). Some days I fail miserably.
When mine are being annoying to each other (the screeching thing) I send the offending parties outside or to their rooms. "But I didn't do anything!" "I didn't say you did. You need to go outside and get some energy out." Or "I didn't do anything!" "I asked you to stop arguing and you didn't. You can go to your room and argue by yourself." (Sometimes I encourage them towards obedience by adding "Yes Ma'am is the only answer.") I do think boredom and personality are large factors in the screeching type things. |
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I am all for improving things around here.
May I ask how the interaction I described above was "engaging" him. Once I made my last statement, I returned to washing the dishes, he stared at me for a few seconds, then went back to his project. That is how most of these sorts of interactions go. He starts his defense-mode, I tell him essentially "I don't care" (in not as few words) and that's it. He can mope and fight and argue all he wants; the only things he gets is entirely ignored (he doesn't throw fits - he only did it twice and realized the reaction he gets, so he doesn't bother).
I guess I'm just not sure how it was still engagement - something I have always tried to avoid.
I'm up for critiques
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CrunchyMom
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CatholicMommy wrote:
cathhomeschool wrote:
CatholicMommy wrote:
Me, not wanting an argument: "J, I am washing dishes now; please check the living room for any dishes."
J: "I didn't leave any dishes in the living room!"
Me: "Just bring me whatever is there, please."
J: "These are YOUR dishes. Not mine."
Me: "That's ok. I just need them so I can wash dishes. Please go back to what you were doing now."
J: "Well I didn't leave them in there."
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LOL. I get that same conversation here!! *The key* for me is to not engage (which is exactly what you did). Some days I fail miserably.
When mine are being annoying to each other (the screeching thing) I send the offending parties outside or to their rooms. "But I didn't do anything!" "I didn't say you did. You need to go outside and get some energy out." Or "I didn't do anything!" "I asked you to stop arguing and you didn't. You can go to your room and argue by yourself." (Sometimes I encourage them towards obedience by adding "Yes Ma'am is the only answer.") I do think boredom and personality are large factors in the screeching type things. |
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I am all for improving things around here.
May I ask how the interaction I described above was "engaging" him. Once I made my last statement, I returned to washing the dishes, he stared at me for a few seconds, then went back to his project. That is how most of these sorts of interactions go. He starts his defense-mode, I tell him essentially "I don't care" (in not as few words) and that's it. He can mope and fight and argue all he wants; the only things he gets is entirely ignored (he doesn't throw fits - he only did it twice and realized the reaction he gets, so he doesn't bother).
I guess I'm just not sure how it was still engagement - something I have always tried to avoid.
I'm up for critiques |
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I'm not Janette, but when I read her post originally, I thought she meant what you did was "not engage." In reading your post, I see that it looked like she was saying the opposite, so I'm sure she'll come clarify herself. But I'm pretty sure she meant to say that you did the right thing. 
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: When a child thinks they do no wrong
