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dolorsofmary
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yes that is what I said. I cannot stand it anymore. Infact I writing this at 3:46am because I cannot sleep until I get this off my chest.
My close friend has 3 (6,4,2) children and they hound her something awful. Of course they hound her because it works. Who am I to correct her and or advise having only 1 child myself! My son is outnumbered by my DH and I and so he can get away with very little and I am very grateful for their friendship esp. because he is an only! But I have read the books by biblical parenting and love and logic for this age group over the years and she and I have discussed in the past about discipline when she has brought it up. I have sent her links to their website to geton their e-mailreminder on discipline, as requested, etc. but she is just toooo swamped.
I want to step in and I shudder at the thought really. I want to say, 'you know why they hound you so much? Because it works! and the best way to get around it (easier said than done of course) is to say 'I don't like how you asked me for that, come back to me more sweetly.' Then perhaps one child will have a fit and she should then say 'oh looks like we will not be able to go to x place because of x child's behavior.' and let the siblings work it out' (of course without creaming the little kid of course. and of course there are variations of the above.
I really see where the youngest is getting brat training. He gets away with so much and his every request is met.
Of course who am I to judge.
Yet another friend has 3 and I don't see the hounding in her house, of course 1 is just 6 monhs old still but still.
Honestly in the 1st friends place, if nothing changes and if things get worse I can see her putting her kids in school rather than homeschooling because it is just too much.
My dh (I couldn't see this becasue I am with my ds all the time) saw that our ds is becoming more whiney as a result of being with these other friends, he does not hound his friends' mom but he witnesses it quite a lot.
I want to help without offending her and without hurting my friendship with her.
Your advice please. Thank you!
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JodieLyn
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depending on your friendship you may be able to step in without necessarily discipling. I assume you mean by hounding the asking over and over and over until they get the answer they want.
So something like "I think your mom answered that question" can give her backing (and a break from answering once again) without you taking a disciplinarian role.
But a lot of it will depend on how your friend would take it.
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cathhomeschool
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I second Jodie. I've done this with friends who are overwhelmed and the fact that it's coming from an adult who isn't the mom seems to short-circuit the thinking and they stop.
A similar approach if they are whining would be to simply tell the child, "I'm sorry, but we don't allow whining at our house. Can you please go in the other room until you're ready to stop?" (I'd say something like this if kids were hitting, taking toys from others, etc. So maybe for excessive whining too...again, depending on your relationship with the mom and only if the whining is major.)
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guitarnan
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Janette has a good point - in your home, you should expect your guests who are children to play by your (reasonable) rules. In the example you mentioned, you could say something like, "In my home, whining isn't allowed. Please take a deep breath and ask again, in a kinder tone of voice. Then I'll be able to listen."
It's definitely okay to back up the children's mom when she has said no already. You're not changing the rules, just emphasizing them.
It's a tough situation. I know that when my children hit the whining phase, I had to be very consistent with my responses to whining. ("I can't understand you when you are whining. Please use a kind voice.") It took ages for the message to sink in. Had I been trying to convince three young children to stop whining all at the same time, it would have been very difficult to be consistent 100% of the time. Perhaps if your friend sees that you don't allow your son or her children to whine in YOUR home, she will feel more confident about sticking to her guns both in your home and hers...and you won't have to say anything to her at all.
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Chris V
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It sounds like a potentially delicate situation, and like others have said, it depends upon your relationship with the mother - and really, it also depends on her personality. I have friends who have thin skin, and I certainly wouldn't be so brazen as to step on their "parenting-toes" ... and it wouldn't be without consequence to the friendship. And I also have friends who welcome advice coming from a place of humility, non-judgement, "holier-than-thou", or "I know better than you".
Within the boundaries of your own home, I think it is entirely reasonable to expect the use of good manners, and polite play, and using gentle reminders of appropriate behaviors with her children are acceptable. But outside your home, at other social engagements, it isn't your place to say.
Perhaps if she herself expresses concern over her children's behavior, that may be an acceptable segway into the conversation of helpful parenting strategies, else, unsolicated advice is usually just that ... unwanted and not taken in the same context that it may be given.
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dolorsofmary
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Thank you so much for your wise advice. In thinking of how to apply it I have to think of when my friend has actually disciplined her children and I was aghast to realize that she doesn't!!!! I mean let me clarify, she tells them what to do and then looks with disgust and lets it go. Like her son was riding his bike without the helmet and she said he has to wear it but he went off without, yes he was just riding in the driveway but he is 2 and needs to learn to obey and learn why it is so important. The 2 yr old got on the video game and kept playing after his Mom told him not to and she just let him. Even his older brother tried to get him off but to no avail. Then they all wanted (except my son who I would have disciplined at once) her to give them something to eat so they all were surrounding her and whining and complaining and the littlest drowned them all out and she said as she always does 'ok let me get that for you'
and the oldest jumps off the highest places like from the top most part of the banister surrounding a back deck to the ground! and from the top of a kiddie outdoor playhouse and they all will get on top and I will notice it bowing under the weight and I will not allow my son to do that.
I am very grateful for the friendship for my son and myself but I am realizing as I discern, pray on this that she has no control because she does NOT discipline. Ok the eldest got a time out yesterday but then he came down without her approval like he blew off her timeout ruling.
She told me that she used to be very strict with her eldest infact too strict and then less strict with the 2nd and now very lax with the youngest and it shows. I said at the time 'we are all that way' until I started to get more of a gut feel for the situation.
I would love to help her but I don't want to boss her around. Sometimes she drops off the eldest at my home and everything is wonderful, no whining, etc very very well behaved. But well I don't know what I would do with 3 kids under the age of 7 all at once. Your thoughts? I guess I can only discipline them when they are at my home which is rare. As a mother of one it is so much easier for me rather than her for me to bring my child and myself toher house rather than the other way around. I really see where the extended family (that functions well and is holy) can be a real boon to a family with multiples. Its a shame, so much is on her. Too bad her family members are not there more the help out. They do come from time to time to watch them but its here and there. She is in my daily prayers and her children too. I think all I can do is pray. Your advice?
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CrunchyMom
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Well, I would be careful to avoid mixing up her choices in what she allows her children to do (e.g., ride bikes without helmets), and your concern that her children are not treating her with the respect she deserves. The first is really none of your business while the second is can be a just feeling of righteous indignation for your friend.
I do think that prayers are definitely the best place to start.
Perhaps if snack time is the source of most of the whining while you are there, you can bring snacks to share yourself. Then, if they start whining, you are in more of a position of authority on that point and can create expectations you feel are appropriate, "I brought a great snack to share. I'll have it ready in fifteen minutes. You all go play, and I'll call you when it is ready. But remember that I only give out snacks to children who ask politely without whining." But, it really isn't a matter of your disciplining her children, imo, it is a matter of making it clear how *you* expect to be treated in an open but light-hearted way.
It doesn't really sound like the sort of thing you can bring up right now or do much about. I think that prayer is your best option. She probably feels overwhelmed and tired, and those are the times when we just feel like we can't do one. more. thing. I don't handle criticism well during those times.
And remember, if she hears it all the time, she probably doesn't even hear the whining anymore. She probably has tuned it out. At this point, it likely isn't even a matter of tolerating it but of having become desensitized to it.
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dolorsofmary
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| Posted: Sept 23 2011 at 11:45am | IP Logged
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Thankyou so much for your insight, what you have said is EXACTLY, no I mean EXACTLY EXACTLY how I think of what is going on. I will continue to pray and shut my mouth and model how I train up my son. Thank you!
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folklaur
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| Posted: Sept 30 2011 at 12:54am | IP Logged
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CrunchyMom wrote:
She probably feels overwhelmed and tired, and those are the times when we just feel like we can't do one. more. thing. I don't handle criticism well during those times.
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this was my first thought as well.
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lapazfarm
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folklaur wrote:
CrunchyMom wrote:
She probably feels overwhelmed and tired, and those are the times when we just feel like we can't do one. more. thing. I don't handle criticism well during those times.
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this was my first thought as well. |
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Yea. Sounds like this poor woman is overwhelmed and in survival mode. Perhaps the best thing you can do for her is to offer to take the kids to the park or something and give her a break.
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10 Bright Stars
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Also, another thing to consider is that she is just plain embarrased with the behavior of her children, and she may also be embarrased to battle them in front of another adult. In private, she might push the "time out" until she wins, but that may entail horrible behavior from her child, ie. hitting her, or hollering back or something that she KNOWS will be an issue from experience, and she is not willing to push the issue with an audience for fear of being put in a position of humiliation. Hence the reason she immediately stops when she senses that this is about to happen, from reading what you said. Also, she may feel as if you ARE actually watching and judging her, which I know you don't mean to do, but esp. if she knows you have a certain standard, this may increase her feelings of fear of being humiliated. Just something to think about. You could do what the others above have suggested, or just come right out and say, "I am not judging you etc., but I do have to make sure my son is not confused by expectations I have for him at home, and those that may be different at a different home. So, I don't mean to make you uncomfortable, but that is my reason for concern and I hope that doesn't make you uncomfortable, and I hope we are close enough that I can be honest with you etc. So, if I say something like, "We ask nicely when we ask for a cookie", "if your child doesn't do this, I am not trying to parent your children, but instead, just trying to reinforce the correct behavior in my child, who is watching and learning. I hope it doesn't offend you as that is not my intention at all." Just a thought.
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Alove
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Being a mom who is frequently overwhelmed and embarrassed by my children's behavior I can assure you that if anyone stepped in and said, well, pretty much anything to my children while I was present...that would be the end of that relationship. I would be polite but I wouldn't consider that person a friend of mine anymore.
I guess that makes me thin-skinned but whatever it is...I would be 1. Horrified that my kids had gotten so much on your nerves that you would say something. 2. Embarrassed/hurt that you didn't think that I could handle my own children or was lax in my discipline. 3. Mother bear would come out. I don't want other people disciplining my kids unless I have expressly given them that authority (i.e. Baby-sitter, grandparent, etc.).
I wouldn't say anything at the time but I would cry in the way home and the relationship would seriously cool.
Not everyone is like me, of course but I thought that maybe that potentiality would be important to consider.
After having my first 4 kids in 5 years I can honestly say that every judgmental bone in my body about parenting is gone. Everyone is doing their best, everyone loves their kids and unless she specifically asks you for help I would just smile at her kids and try to see their cuteness...that's all she probably wants from you. Acceptance of her and her loved ones. Let her deal with their other sides, in her own way and her own time...
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dolorsofmary
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| Posted: Nov 05 2011 at 11:23am | IP Logged
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well now I have a new fascet of this conversation.
if other kids are at your home and you are the only adult, do you discipline them?
like I asked for please and thank you when it didn't come naturally and then I got an eye roll as a response along with the begruded please or thank you
what would you do?
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SallyT
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Yes, I correct behavior, though I try to keep it lighthearted (unless the issue is really serious, like someone hurting someone else or deliberately breaking something belonging to another person, or something like that).
For instance, if I get someone a drink of water and the child doesn't say thank you, I cheerfully and sort of obnoxiously say, "You're welcome!" Generally they go, "Oh. Uh, thank you." It does come out grudgingly sometimes, possibly because the child feels put on the spot. I try not to make too much of a momentary instance of what seems like disrespectful behavior from someone else's child, because it may be that they don't mean disrespect but are just uncomfortable. I try to give them the benefit of the doubt, unless of course they persist in rudeness. Kids who've been persistently disrespectful tend not to get invited back to our house. I don't feel that I can actually punish another person's child, at least for the kind of thing you describe -- it seems unfair to levy a punishment for something they perhaps haven't been taught is wrong -- and I wouldn't expend too much energy over making someone say something politely (the way I would with my own children), but I'd certainly indicate that there's a right and wrong way to do things, and demonstrate the right way.
My kids do play with a few kids who have behavioral issues which kind of go beyond the boundaries of normal -- I know this, and I know some of the underlying reasons, and I've also observed patterns like bossiness, melting down if they don't get their way, and (maybe more disturbingly) the tendency on the part of one particular child always to wangle my kids' belongings away from them ("I'm going to take this home and have my dad fix it") and then lose them. I am talking about older kids, by the way, for whom the melting-down stuff, at least, really isn't at all age-appropriate.
Having the kids not play together isn't much of an option, because we're all members of a very small homeschool group, my older children are friends with that particular child's older siblings, and so on, as well as my being friends with the mothers. We'd have to drop out of our entire social circle to avoid these situations. Having seen this one child and a few others in action, I now have no problem, if their mothers aren't around, stepping in and speaking to them more or less as I would to my own kids: "Look, we don't behave that way when we want other people to play with us," or, "I know that you like to be listened to, but when you play with others, you have to do give and take. Let X have some say in what you're going to play," or, "Y, I know you want to help X with his toy, but he wants to keep it. If he doesn't want you to fix it, that's his decision."
And then I also debrief my own kids -- if you don't want Y appropriating your toys, don't have them available to play with. If he asks for your sword, tell him why you aren't playing with it right now. If you don't like to be bossed by G, walk away and do something else for a while, until she cools off.
With most of these kids, their mothers are well aware of behavioral issues and doing the best they can. Some kids just *are* difficult and have a hard time interpersonally, especially with their peers. So I don't necessarily bring incidents up to the mothers, unless they're really serious (so far that hasn't happened), because what I want to do is deal with the kids in the moment when I am the adult in authority, not to make their moms feel dumped on later. Does that make sense? But if I'm the adult in authority, and something's going on that demands some intervention, I don't mind laying down the law. I trust that other mothers would do that if my children were out of line in my absence.
Does this shed any light at all?
Sally
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CrunchyMom
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It really depends. I *might* lightly tease them, "oh, is that the best you can do. I'll bet you can do better than that" depending on the sort of relationship I have with the child. But, at the end of the day, it is tricky to balance your role as the present adult and enforcing your expectations for those visiting your home and playing the hostess and graciously ignoring any shortcomings on the part of your guests. If a child were being rude to another child (another guest, specifically, not so much to my own children who are also learning to "play host/hostess"), I would make a correction. Part of my role as hostess is making sure that everyone is having a nice time. 
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MNMommy
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What are you considering worthy of discipline here? I see two issues: the use of please and thank you and the eye rolling.
I think you put yourself in an awkward spot since I wouldn't have required or asked someone else's kids to say please or thank you. I find it rude when others impose their set of manners on my kids, and I don't assume that other parents have the same manners requirements as I do. Now, I do expect my children to use the manners I require in our house regardless of what other children to do or say. So I would discipline or correct my children but not the other children.
If I had put myself in an awkward spot of asking them to say please or thank you and the children weren't following my lead, I would jokingly wiggle my way out of the situation. The eye roll would annoy me greatly, but I wouldn't do anything about it. Once again, that's something that wouldn't fall under my realm of responsibility. That child has parents who are responsible for teaching respect. [That child most likely wouldn't be invited back to my house, however.]
I would discipline another's kid if he/she was physically violent, verbally agressive, or something similar. I would help the kids if they were having trouble sharing toys or fighting over which games to play. But, really, my job as adult-in-charge is to keep the children safe. My job should rarely require actual discipline.
If you are worried about other children's behaviors affecting your child, then you need to work with your child. We interact with people who have different behavior expectations than us all the time. Kids can easily understand that what works for another family doesn't work in our family.
As my kids get older, I am ever more careful about making sure I don't appear judgmental toward other families and their expectations of their children. We all have children who are far from perfect, and no one parents perfectly. Another family may focus on serving others while we focus on manners. Their kids may forget to say please or thank you when they visit, but maybe they never forget to open the door for a mom with little kids. My kids may never forget to say please or thank you but they may forget to open doors. All kids the are doing great things. None of them are perfect.
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JodieLyn
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oh my goodness.. could you just imagine what would happen if the adult in charge didn't have rules that everyone would follow and correct children that don't follow them 
The swimming pool has kids that aren't following rules/directions sit on the side of the pool for a short time to understand the seriousness of following them.
Sports has the child sit on the sidelines for the same reason.
Schools have their own rules and consequences.
Scouts has rules and boys that aren't following are asked to sit out, call for a parent to come get them.. whatever is needed.
Of course the only adult present needs to be in charge and yes that can be correcting and having some level of consequence for serious reasons. And I don't see any reason that instructing on respectful address (which is what please and thankyou are) would be out of line.
To me if a parent leaves their children with me, they know me well enough to know what I would expect and wouldn't mind me requiring those in a reasonable way.
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MNMommy
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Of course the only adult present needs to be in charge and yes that can be correcting and having some level of consequence for serious reasons. And I don't see any reason that instructing on respectful address (which is what please and thankyou are) would be out of line.
I completely agree with what you stated, but I don't see using the particular words of please and thank you as a serious issue, pariculary if the children aren't taught those words at home. Children can be very polite and still not use those words. Discipline by a non-parent, in my mind, is reserved for bigger ticket items than this particular situation. As long as the child was being respectful, I wouldn't require please and thank you. If the child wasn't being respectful, it wouldn't matter if he/she had said those words or not.
Maybe I'm too soft, but if a 5yo says very nicely, "May I have a cookie?" My answer is yes, not "You can have the cookie after you say please."
Discipline is not the same as requiring other kids to follow rules. Discipline includes punishment. I rarely punish other children since punishment would be reserved for serious offense, but I certainly do lead them and direct them.
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Angie Mc
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deloresofmary, what I have found most helpful is to challenge myself to give mothers and their children 100 courtesies before giving any correction. (No one likes being corrected so it is always a negative thing, even if just a little sting among loved ones.)
Once I've given 100 courtesies, I have built the beginnings of a relationship...so I have to treat it with great gentleness. I then consider if the relationship can last on minimal corrections. I'm willing to correct children/teens *sparingly*. And I never tell a grown woman how to parent her children. Never. If a friend asks me for advice directly, then I offer carefully. For each correction, advice offered, comes another 100 courtesies from me.
If a child or children are so out of control that I'm constantly concerned or feeling the need to correct, I check my heart first. Do I need to offer a courtesy? Do I need to smile, joke, feed, hug, etc.? If I find that I have given to a reasonable extent then I look at the objective behaviors of the children. Do they cause big harm? Do they cause big damage? Are they mean-spirited, demeaning of others? If not, can I look past their behaviors and simply be kind to them? If they are just being kids (who will do kid things) can I be the adult...detached and kind? Can I focus on the good?
With this criteria, I'm able to honestly love and enjoy the company of most children and teens. They are kids for goodness sake! With this criteria, I choose my women friends carefully, praying for direction about who can reciprocate courtesy, fun, thoughtfulness, and other traits that help us to be better moms, wives, women, together.
Love,
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lapazfarm
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Angie Mc wrote:
deloresofmary, what I have found most helpful is to challenge myself to give mothers and their children 100 courtesies before giving any correction. (No one likes being corrected so it is always a negative thing, even if just a little sting among loved ones.)
Once I've given 100 courtesies, I have built the beginnings of a relationship...so I have to treat it with great gentleness. I then consider if the relationship can last on minimal corrections. I'm willing to correct children/teens *sparingly*. And I never tell a grown woman how to parent her children. Never. If a friend asks me for advice directly, then I offer carefully. For each correction, advice offered, comes another 100 courtesies from me.
If a child or children are so out of control that I'm constantly concerned or feeling the need to correct, I check my heart first. Do I need to offer a courtesy? Do I need to smile, joke, feed, hug, etc.? If I find that I have given to a reasonable extent then I look at the objective behaviors of the children. Do they cause big harm? Do they cause big damage? Are they mean-spirited, demeaning of others? If not, can I look past their behaviors and simply be kind to them? If they are just being kids (who will do kid things) can I be the adult...detached and kind? Can I focus on the good?
With this criteria, I'm able to honestly love and enjoy the company of most children and teens. They are kids for goodness sake! With this criteria, I choose my women friends carefully, praying for direction about who can reciprocate courtesy, fun, thoughtfulness, and other traits that help us to be better moms, wives, women, together.
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YES!!!!
I agree with this wholeheartedly. Thank you, Angie, for articulating it so beautifully!
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: disciplining other peoples children
