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Kathryn
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| Posted: March 29 2011 at 4:04pm | IP Logged
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My DD 12 is a bright, capable, pleasant, easy-going child. This is the child that everyone wonders...how could I possibly complain? Well, I'm growing exasperated with her leaving stuff laying all around and I'm trying to figure out an appropriate "punishment", discipline, habit formation or what to get through to her. Since she is the oldest, there is the expectation that she should pick up after herself (such as not toss your jacket on the kitchen counter when you come in to make lunch since I know that's not where you found it and put your dirty plate in the sink when you're done  ).
Then, she left the infant tub in front of the sink (again!) last night instead of putting it back in the tub after she showered and has walked by it 3 times today and I kept waiting for her to move it back (not until I asked). As her 6 month old baby sister is starting to scoot around (and put things in her mouth), I asked DS12 3x to pick up the pennies from their little science project that landed on the floor. 3 hours later, they were still there! I'm tired of sounding like a broken record since obviously that's not effective and wondering what ideas you might have.
Also, this isn't particularly new in terms of being a pre-teen attitude or such. I don't sense an attitude but mere mindlessness, but I shouldn't have to stand over her for every little thing such as these and repeat, repeat, repeat...should I?
Thanks,
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Kathryn in TX
(dd 16, ds 15, dd 8, dd 5)
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: March 29 2011 at 4:37pm | IP Logged
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I put my girls' things in their bed if I find them lying around after I've asked them to be picked up. EVERYTHING. Even dirty things....cuz if the dirty things make their bed dirty then they have to change the bedding. Now, if dirty beds didn't bother them, this wouldn't work, of course....  But, it TOTALLY bothers them, so I use that to my advantage. And, yes, I would put the infant tub in her bed, so before she went to bed she'd have to put it back.
You can also pick up her things and put them in a big box somewhere....in order to get something back, she needs to pay you for it. And, I'm NOT talking about paying you a quarter! Make it PAINFUL.
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Suzanne in ID
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Kathryn
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| Posted: March 29 2011 at 4:53pm | IP Logged
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SuzanneG wrote:
| Now, if dirty beds didn't bother them, this wouldn't work, of course.... |
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That's a great idea. I thought about this for DS 10 too but alas, the dirty bed wouldn't matter!
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Kathryn in TX
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Mackfam
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| Posted: March 29 2011 at 5:13pm | IP Logged
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Kathryn wrote:
SuzanneG wrote:
| Now, if dirty beds didn't bother them, this wouldn't work, of course.... |
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That's a great idea. I thought about this for DS 10 too but alas, the dirty bed wouldn't matter! |
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Find something else that matters. I dump in my daughter's closet that she shares with her little sister...on top of her shoes!!!  If this happens only occasionally, I'd pick up and dump somewhere that matters to them, and that they'll have to pick up to get to their things - favorite shelf, on top of their desk, pull out the underwear drawer and dump it in, etc.
IF...this is a regular occurrence, I would offer exactly ONE straightforward warning....
* * *IF you leave your belongings out in family space and do not tidy up daily, THEN I will tidy and remove these possessions from circulation. (NOTE -- if a child leaves something that belongs to you out of place, like the infant tub, and you must pick it up, then they owe you payment. Period.)
To reclaim a possession you will have to (insert painful payment method here).
IF payment has not been made to reclaim said item within a reasonable amount of time (you determine this and STAND BY IT!), THEN I will assume that it is no longer needed and it will be donated to charity.
* * *You will be AMAZED at how motivating this can be...but you must be prepared to follow through!!!
IDEAS for painful payment methods -->
:: a monetary amount (reasonable meaning they have to have the money, but painful in that it seriously cuts into their cash!)
FOR NON-MONEY EARNERS:
:: clean all bathrooms in the house
:: mop all floors
:: dishes for the next 5 days
:: vacuum and dust entire house
:: weed all gardens around the house
IDEAS FOR SETTING THE KIDS UP FOR SUCCESS!!
:: Institute regular daily pick up times and ENFORCE them! These have to be quick pick up times, and you have to be involved for this to work. Otherwise, they will be ignored.
:: Provide a place for their belongings - sometimes kids are overwhelmed with a bunch of stuff and they don't know where to put it. Help them go through their belongings, pare down to a reasonable amount, and make sure everything has a HOME!
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Jen Mackintosh
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SallyT
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| Posted: March 29 2011 at 6:39pm | IP Logged
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I have a 13yo son who leaves his clothes everywhere. My daughter who's leaving for college told him that he can use her room while he's gone, but he CANNOT leave his socks in there -- if that gives you an idea.
So I've instituted a "Lost and Found" box, into which I dump anything of anyone's that I find lying around, and I'm charging people (according to their ability to pay, of course) to give them back.
Got that idea from the Boy Scout troop, by the way . . .
Sally
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Kathryn
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| Posted: March 29 2011 at 8:52pm | IP Logged
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I think what I struggle w/ is the fact that she is SUCH a good kid, so easy-going and soooo very helpful w/ her 3 yr old sister and baby sister that I tend sometimes to let things slide and then I feel guilty trying to implement something like having her pay me to pick up her stuff or confiscate it or the like esp. when she might have happily played w/ the baby while I cooked dinner or helped the 3 yr old get ready for church etc. And let me say that I am normally soooo not a lenient mom. Her standard punishment used to be writing sentences such as "I will pick up my stuff" for may be 25 times but I've moved to more paragraph type writings such as "Why it's important to pick up my stuff." In fact, there was a sign on the bathroom wall a month ago with 25 sentences that said "I will put the baby tub back in the big tub when finished." I guess the water ruined the sign b/c it disappeared a couple weeks ago and that's when the baby tub started getting left out again. What are your thoughts on sentences/paragraphs? I've just always felt like I want to instill in them the REASON behind the action. But that's seeming too easy and not getting the point across.
I talked to her tonight and mentioned that I am going to start putting things on her bed (she cares about a dirty bed, it's brother that doesn't) and then we will proceed from there such as taking things away or having her pay me to do her job. She said ok. We'll see. Any other thoughts on being more lenient b/c she is such a helper w/ the little ones?
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SallyT
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| Posted: March 29 2011 at 10:12pm | IP Logged
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Well, for what it's worth . . .
My 13yo is probably the most consistently un-difficult of my children: nice, helpful, respectful, etc. (not that the others are bad, but this one really got the "make-nice/make-peace" gene.) And I understand letting bad habits slide, because you think, well, that's not *so* bad, and he/she is *mostly* so good.
Still, a good person can have a bad habit, and I think (again, for what it's worth, which may not be much) that as parents we have to separate all the things in the "good" column from whatever's in the "notsogood" column. In other words, I don't think you can apply good behavior to the account, as credit against the bad behavior, if what you want is for the bad behavior, however relatively minor it may be, to change.
So, you might reward her in some way for being a helper -- a day out together, a special treat, even paying her some modest wage if she's going above and beyond.
But I don't think it's a good idea to let "giving slack" be the reward. After all, the fact that she often does very good things really has nothing to do with the fact that in this one instance, she's developed an inconsiderate habit. And as a reward, letting someone get by with something that you wouldn't let them get by with under other circumstances isn't really much of a reward in the long run, if the payoff for being a good kid is to get to be a good kid with a really annoying habit.
I've done the writing-lines thing, too (though honestly, the few times I've used it, it was purely to get the people involved to shut up and sit still for ten minutes, while I went into another room and did deep-breathing exercises). I think that while this can work as a disciplinary measure on a limited basis, after a while what you get is a kid who can give you, off the top of her head, all the excellent reasons for not doing X, while still continuing to do X.
When I have done discipline that actually worked, which has not been all that often, to tell you the truth, it's been situations where I laid down one warning, and then acted with swift, unemotional retribution. Fortunately, in the instance of the stuff left lying around, I can imitate the Scoutmaster and be joky about it, while holding out my hand for the quarter, or dollar, or whatever I have decided off the top of my head is a reasonable amount for the person to pay (or maybe it's a chore, as Jennifer suggested. Bathrooms always need cleaning).
I don't make a big deal out of what I'm going to do, and I don't ask for their assent. Sometimes I don't tell them in advance, but wait for them to ask me where their socks have gone. "Oh, would that have been the socks under the dining room table, or the socks in the bathroom sink? Well, let me tell you where those socks are now, and what you can do to get them back. Unless you really like how your sneakers feel on the inside, as a sort of permanent sensation . . . "
In the case of something left out that needed putting away (mine do this with pots and pans they don't want to deal with when they're washing the dishes -- they develop selective blindness which renders them mysteriously incapable of seeing a large roasting pan on the stovetop), and I'm fairly sure it's not just a random oversight (somehow I think it isn't), I think I'd just keep a simple 3-strikes system: a mark on a whiteboard, or in a notebook, or whatever is convenient for you to keep up with, every time the incident occurs. On the third strike, the person owes you an extra chore, or a dollar, or whatever seems like the right kind of penalty. Nothing too huge, punitive, or serious, because you have to keep things in perspective, but enough to be something the person doesn't want to have happen again. In fact, I'm making a mental note of this as I type, because I really do get sick of the sight of the roasting pan which nobody wants to wash, even though it's almost miraculously non-stick.
The hardest thing about little-things-that-become-big like this is keeping kind of a light touch -- you're serious about changing the behavior, but at the same time, it's not as though she committed some enormous offense. And you can't feel guilty about levying a consequence: in doing so you're not maligning a good kid. You're correcting a behavior. So the more you can maintain a pleasant, businesslike demeanor while levying said consequence, the better. At least, I find this to be true in my house, and especially so when I find I have to discipline a child who doesn't regularly need much disciplining.
So much easier just to deliver long, involved lectures about character and behavior. In case you were in any doubt as to what my least-effective, but most-often-used, disciplinary technique might be.
Anyway, good luck with it. Maybe when your baby bathtub gets put away, and my roasting pan gets washed, we should have a party.
Sally
PS (oh, no, she's still got things to say!): I like Jennifer's emphasis on setting kids up for success. We just reamed out the room in our house that's continually trashed, a little "study" off our kitchen which, when it's clean, is a really nice room to hang out in. So I've been really staying on the chief offenders, the artists and Littlest-Pet-Shop players, who like to play in there but not clean up, to pick up as they go, so that things don't snowball. We'll see how long that lasts, since the person who really needs motivating long-term is the person banging out all this advice.
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juststartn
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| Posted: March 30 2011 at 6:19pm | IP Logged
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I am constantly sending people around to get things that belong to them. Dumping things on their beds wouldn't phase any of mine. Not at all. Money? They don't have any.
Chores? They already DO the ugly chores. Really. Dishes, toilets, bathrooms...even the chicken coop.
SIGH.
It doesn't help that I have three girls in one room, and their dresser is broken (as in really, really, broken--needs to be thrown away broken-broken). We are working on getting them a new 9 drawer one, but I cannot find one I like. The boys are 3 going on 4, and so are still in the "I will pull out everything from my drawers to find that shirt with the train on it that is actually in the wash but I don't know that so every other shirt ends up on the floor" mode. LOL.
DH and I are far from perfect, but I'm getting better. And we've gotten rid of at least 5 grocery sacks of clothes and toys this spring. And trash, land sakes, the trash...
But I am gleaning ideas from this...hopefully something will work...
Rachel
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Kristie 4
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I have a miscellaneous bin I keep at the bottom of the stairs (all of the kids stuff lives upstairs). I basketball shoot stuff in there all day using the wall as a backboard The larger items that get left around I just call people to grab and put away (which always includes many apple cores and my ds's books!)
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Angie Mc
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| Posted: March 30 2011 at 7:29pm | IP Logged
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Because everyone else has chimed in with great practical helps and good habit formation ideas, I'll share something that has helped me emotionally from experience.
I have a child who sounds very much like yours. This child is awesome in so many ways...and yet, the child has a few negative character traits that are VERY intense. We've come to accept that these traits are a type of rigging, genetic inclination, personhood. For me, what has helped is to accept this fact - that this child is carrying a pretty heavy "genetic" cross.
If you feel that your dd has always had a problem being neat AND you have decent enough habit formation in this area that works well enough for other family members, you may want to consider that you are seeing something within this child that may be...more. This is a great opportunity to see the adult she is becoming and help her to better know herself. You can focus on the traits that are colluding...a strong inclination toward not wanting to do mundane work (entitlement)? not wanting to work at all (sloth)? not wanting to ask for help (pride)? not wanting to do unpleasant work (self-will)?
We are honest about these strong traits and work kindly to face them, channel them, and contain them, understanding that we're facing something pretty deep and big. We also pick our battles carefully, focus on positive relationships, and are willing to help in areas of honest need...such as helping to clean up the mess.
Love,
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Angie Mc
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: March 30 2011 at 8:27pm | IP Logged
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It kinda sounds to me like she's trying to hurry to the next thing that she's doing and so not thinking about the here and now of what is being left out.
Hurrying into the kitchen in her jacket or while she's taking the jacket off and focused on making lunch so the jacket goes wherever rather absentmindedly. Or she's focused on the next thing and so gets up and leaves things sitting out because she's done with those and not even thinking about it anymore.
If it is more of an absentmindedness that's something you can come at in many ways.. the consequences can work.. but even then she could struggle with it. It may be something that you could help her with more by catching her as she's switching from one thing to the next.. when she walks in the door yell "STOP" and when she does.. remind her that she needs to hang her jacket up before moving onto the next thing. And you can do that for anything. Getting up and forgetting to take the plate to the sink.. she gets up "STOP" the next thing you do is take the plate to the kitchen.
It sounds like she probably *knows* what she's supposed to be doing.. but when she's already moved on past it, it's interupting the next thing to have to backtrack. And while consequences help kids learn.. sometimes they need help in figuring out HOW to remember to do things.
"STOP" you came in a door, what do you do before the thing you came in for (close the door, hang up a jacket, etc).. "STOP" when you get up, is there something you need to take with you and put away, or are the things something you're coming back to etc.
Helping her grasp the idea of WHEN to think about these things as much as TO do them.
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Kathryn
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| Posted: March 30 2011 at 8:50pm | IP Logged
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Lots of great, practical advice. I do really kind of think it is more absentmindedness and I do think sometimes I blow it out of proportion which is may be where my guilt comes in.  Then I guess I do try to give credit for her helping to offset the unpleasant task of picking up after her. It is a habit that she needs to work on but I need to keep it short, sweet and simple and take out the emotion of being frustrated. It's almost like I have my wild and woolly boy that drives me nuts all.day.long, my (currently) ornery 3 yr old and of course the sweet baby but keeps me awake still 2-3x a night and then when I see the 12 yo leave something out, I tend to overreact, like "HUMPH...I have to ask you to do something so mundane that you know better?!"
I do keep a small basket on the piano where I put all the little things and I have been implementing a "tidy up" time so those do help. I'm going to ponder some more the best way to help her be more mindful of this. And, yes, I'm working on this too myself as I'm certainly not "perfect" in the putting things away camp.
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Kathryn in TX
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juststartn
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| Posted: April 05 2011 at 11:56am | IP Logged
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Well, we have an update! I am sooo glad to say that we found *just* the dresser I was looking for, for the girls room. Their old one is out, and while DH may fix it so we can reuse it to store other things we stock up on in the pantry room, their new dresser is gradually being filled (I am getting the clothes out, washing/drying/sorting, and putting back only the things that they need for this spring/summer...whew).
So we should see some light at the end of the tunnel soon....
Rachel
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Kathryn
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| Posted: April 05 2011 at 10:29pm | IP Logged
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That's funny, Rachel! I hope it works for them. I was going to update that I added a pile to my daughter's bed last week and left a nice note saying that next time I was going to "charge her". Twice this week, I gave her 2 warnings and then put the things away and went to her and asked for my payment for putting her things away. I felt I was overly generous in the warning dept. and she handed over the money. Now, we'll see if that works at least for a while.
Also, Rachel, not sure if you remember but we're the ones that have the land north of Ada and plan on putting a cabin on it this Summer so may be we could "meet" sometime for real. With the little bitty trailer that's on there now, I haven't been up there in over 1 1/2 years now.
Ohh and Jodie, I've been using "STOP" a lot too...on them all. Just calmly but firmly saying "STOP and finish what you're doing." They look at me like "ohh...ok" and they do it! 
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Kathryn in TX
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Getting a 12 yo to pick up after self!
