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*Lindsey*
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| Posted: Jan 21 2011 at 3:18pm | IP Logged
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Our twin DDs turned 3 in October. They are very spirited and stubborn.
Some examples of what I need help with:
1. When they get angry, their immediate reaction is to scream and hit the person they are mad at. They will pull hair, push, kick, slap, scratch, and throw toys. They mostly fight with one another, but occasionally with one of their older siblings or younger sister.
2. They do not do what I say. Now I know from DS and older DD that 3 year olds aren't *easy*, but the twins seem to take it to a whole new level. For example, today when we were picking up toys, I asked the twins to pick up the counting frogs that they tossed all over the playroom. Hazel went and did it after I asked her twice more, but Lucy would not do it at all. She just laid on the floor and threw a fit. This afternoon, she ripped up a picture. We were getting ready to have hot chocolate, so I told her she would need to pick up the pieces and put it in the trash before she had hers. Once again, she threw a fit. She wanted me to "HELP!!!" so I picked up some of it. She didn't. Everyone is finished with their hot chocolate, and she still hasn't picked up the pieces. She is still screaming...
We have tried time-outs, but they will not stay wherever we put them. They climb over and knock down baby gates. I have seen an episode of supernanny where they had the same problem with a little boy and the solution was to keep putting him back and not setting the timer until he stayed put. It took them 45 minutes the first few times and it went on for days.  I can't see myself having the patience for that. Twice over. 
We have tried spanking, but if we need to discipline for hitting I feel like saying "Don't hit your sister!" and spanking a butt is sending the wrong message. Correct me if I'm wrong!
We do lots of praising, hugs and kisses, high-fives when they do obey and treat each other kindly. We say lots of "Be nice! Be gentle! Love each other!"
Please, help.
Everything feels like a battle with them. They will not nap anymore but do get 12-13 hours of sleep a night. Late afternoons are tough because they are more touchy.
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Lindsey
Mama to DS (11), DD(9), twin dds(7), DD (5), DS (4), DS (3), and 5 angels in heaven.
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jillian
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| Posted: Jan 21 2011 at 5:41pm | IP Logged
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With time-out I know my 3 year old will get out and test if I am really serious about the time out. I put her back (I give her a little more leeway than most. She can move in her allotted spot but she gets put back if she's out of that spot) and don't start her time until her crying fit ends (she always has a full on fit when she goes in time out because it's so rare she needs it). We have had 2 hours of putting her back in time out but she eventually got it and stayed where she was supposed to.
We rarely spank either, because of the same reasons, telling dd to not hi and then hitting her seems counter-intuitive.
We use positive praise and positive discipline...high fives when she does it right, rewards, etc
One thing we do is after the final warning of she needs to pick up her toys (for example) she loses the toy for the whole next day. This is in her downstairs play area (we are more lax upstairs but also tends to pick it up after playing more than downstairs). If she hits with her toys we take them away and she gets nothing if she does it over and over again. We also make a big scene over being "hurt", we look sad and dejected if she hurts us physically or says something mean (she's highly sensitive though) and we require her to say sorry and what she is sorry for. This is well within her capabilities and now she says sorry and why all on her own without prompting.
We require a 2 hour "quiet time" period for dd. You have to figure out what works best for your kiddos and family but we have found that if dd doesn't get at least 45 minutes of alone quiet time a day she will be he-l-l on wheels come the 345/4 o clock hour. I am not going to lie the initial transition period was HORRIBLE to her taking the quiet time. She still pitches a fit every once in awhile but we have a routine for her, which is easier since she's our only one, but it is imperative she has it. She also has no toys in her room, only books so that helps.
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CatholicMommy
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| Posted: Jan 22 2011 at 11:55am | IP Logged
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The only thing that ever worked for me when I've dealt with that situation is totally ignoring the temper tantrum. Every few minutes (right before they get destructive) give a calm reminder that "when you are calm, you may join us" - no time limit or not starting the timer until they are calm (this part comes later, once they've seen that being calm brings immediate good results - then you start delaying that good result as needed).
If they've already reached the destructive stage, sit down, hold them on your lap with arms at their sides (not tight, but firm - there is a particular way to hold a child in this manner and I can never describe it well!) - until they are calm.
Twins build on each other - there is something about twins. :)
I second the built-in quiet time every afternoon - this applies for everyone. We are ALL sitting in our own designated spaces, reading, coloring, resting eyes, whatever. But the house is SILENT.
Also the rule has to be "first time obedience or a consequence" - no warnings, or repeats - because they will always push for more repeats/warnings - to see how far they can get. They are not being malicious in this, it just happens and again is more clear in twins than anyone else!
Last thing - stay calm. Even if you have to leave the room to vent; it is better to walk away and come back to the situation and have the children see you entirely calm - nothing is going to faze you. HUGE difference in respect happens right there (anecdote - when I was a teenager, my mother learned this trick - our relationship improved OVERNIGHT - it was amazing! She stayed calm and I felt like I didn't have to be so defensive and pushing my case to be heard. It took a bit longer on MY part to be humble enough to accept answers from her I didn't like; but that one step on her part made a world of difference).
I hope something in there helps! We'll be praying!
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: Jan 22 2011 at 12:29pm | IP Logged
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I don't have twins but with close together children I've dealt with the multiple toddlers and the children that escalate things because of the other.. one of my children is what I'd call a catalyst.. if she's involved everything is more than the sum of the parts.
For time outs, I've know people to use the car seat.. so that buckling them in is an option. Use an old car seat or pick some up cheap at yard sales and the like to keep one in the house.
My kids have all been very responsive to "loss of freedom".. so I could take them somewhere.. if they were in the stroller I wouldn't buckle them but if they didn't sit I had the consequence that they'd have to be buckled.. it worked much better because they would control themselves to avoid being buckled in vs fighting the buckle.. finding it a challenge to get loose. I carry a harness and leash in my bag.. makes a good immedicate consequence. if they won't stay with me when we're out.. I can pull out the harness and have the immediate consequence of loss of freedom without having to abandon the trip. And again, you can walk next to the shopping cart as long as you're within arms distance (I would periodically call out for everyone to put their hand on the cart so they'd keep in mind to stay close) and if you move too far away then I would put a smaller child into the cart or a larger child would have to keep their hand on the cart. (I was doing this with 5 and 6 kids then the older ones got old enough that they would help with the younger ones and it got easier)
Temper tantrums just don't phase me much so I think they don't last long here. I just wait them out and ask them if they're done.. the first time or two that question is asked is likely to result in more tantrum but eventually they tell me yes.. I think they figure out that I'll just keep waiting until they're done.. but I've never had two in that stage at once. But I know I've heard of tantrums much more violent than the ones we have here.
Oh yes and staying calm is huge. And if you can be a bit amused by the tantrums even better.. who'd want to continue behavior that didn't get your way AND only amused those around you. 
Learning to stay calm helps in other ways.. the child that climbs for instance.. if you stay calm and tell them to get down they can climb down.. if you're panicking they will too and then you have to go up after them. People will ask me how I can stay calm.. I usually tell them shell-shock 
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CatholicMommy
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| Posted: Jan 22 2011 at 12:39pm | IP Logged
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OOH! I like the reminder about "everyone else's life is going to go on regardless of your behavior - so join the ride or you'll miss out".
To help maintain calm - I think maintaining the attitude that while I want my children to participate, be at peace, be obedient, etc., if they're not going to, it is THEIR loss, not mine. (they lose the privileges, etc). Then it's not about me personally and I'm less likely to get upset.
I've been known to pick up a screaming child and calmly buckle them into the car so we could continue with our errands (I had 6 daycare children at the time; we were going to the park and said child wanted a particular pair of shoes he'd left at home; he threw a fit; so we went to the park - and when he was done with his fit, he went and played and moved on).
I think that's the other part of the tantrum issue - it's OK to be angry, sad, disappointed, etc. It is NOT ok to be destructive or disrespectful - but we also have to leave space for children to work out how to handle their own emotions. I can't make a child NOT be sad - I can give him space and tools to address it.
Too many thoughts today - I'll step away now
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Angi
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| Posted: Jan 22 2011 at 3:33pm | IP Logged
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We plop the little cutie in their beds and walk to the door. Over and over wwe return them to their bed if they try to leave the room. It is tedious when there are twins (mine are 5 1/2). We try to be consistent, but are not always successful. It never takes ours 45 mins to figure out that they will stay there until they can be polite.
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Elena
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| Posted: Jan 22 2011 at 4:13pm | IP Logged
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My motto is spank early, spank often! 
Honestly, I think I could solve most of Super Nanny's problems with a well timed spanking.
That all said,I found that I only had to spank a couple of times and then I never had to do it again - I just had to threaten. My youngest is now 5 and I can't remember the last time I spanked anyone! The trick is to do it consistently, and do it for willful disobedience.
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JamieCarin
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| Posted: Jan 22 2011 at 5:39pm | IP Logged
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Ihaven't read the whole thread (and I am new here), but my son turns 3 in two weeks and he is a stubborn, too smart for his own good, little whipper snapper too.
I find that ignoring tantrums is the #1 way to end them. Walk away and don't indulge them. Also do not indulge them in arguments or back talk. Backtalk/arguing is met with a warning and always follow through. More persistent problems get a universal warning and then when it happens immediate consequences. We do timeouts on a stool that he can't easily get down from. Also we take away favorite toys when appropriate and they are returned when the behavior changes. We save spanks for things where his safety is at stake (playing with an outlet, climbing unstable furniture, running away in a parking lot).
I have no experience with twins, but my sense is to divide and conquer when it comes to behavior issues.
Good luck and hang in there!
Jamie
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*Lindsey*
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| Posted: Jan 24 2011 at 11:27am | IP Logged
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Thank you for your thoughts and tips. We do ignore tantrums unless they are being destructive. I think a big part of the problem is that sometimes I DO get angry about their misbehavior and feel like they are ruining my day. I know that's irrational. 
I have been praying about this and asking God to show me how to best discipline them. We had some success today with immediate removal of toys, and one fairly successful time-out. Now if I can only be consistent...
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Lindsey
Mama to DS (11), DD(9), twin dds(7), DD (5), DS (4), DS (3), and 5 angels in heaven.
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guitarnan
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| Posted: Jan 24 2011 at 11:43am | IP Logged
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Lindsey, consistency is key with this age. They really do want to know what to expect when they misbehave or push boundaries. You and your husband should work together so that each of you gives the same response when specific behaviors occur. (Write it down. It helps.) It does take time, but that consistency and follow-through ("If you can't stop screaming in the grocery store, we will have to leave the cart and go home," - and then do it) will make all the difference.
It may also help to give them words to use to explain how they feel. We need to teach our children the words that go with their feelings. "I see you are feeling very angry right now. That's okay. It is not okay to throw blocks at your sister because she could get hurt," and statements like that acknowledge the validity of feelings without permitting destructiveness.
Some children really need physical things to do to dispel feelings of anger and frustration, too - some parents give their children a pillow to punch or scream into. We didn't do that, but perhaps someone else here has used a technique like this.
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: Jan 24 2011 at 12:26pm | IP Logged
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guitarnan wrote:
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Unless of course they're screaming to get to leave then they're just getting their way 
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G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: Jan 24 2011 at 2:07pm | IP Logged
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JodieLyn wrote:
guitarnan wrote:
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Unless of course they're screaming to get to leave then they're just getting their way |
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Assuming the child LIKES to be at the grocery store (which most kids do), this is very effective. I left a full cart at the grocery store ONCE, came home and did nothing FUN for the rest of the day. It only had to happen once and they knew I was serious. Being in stores or public places with them has never since been a problem.
I do occasionally have to SAY "Do you want to stop (insert bad behavior) or do you want to go home? It's your choice" to remind the younger ones.
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: Jan 24 2011 at 2:26pm | IP Logged
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hmmm I guess I was thinking of when it's boring and mom is still shopping and they want to be done. But maybe it wasn't as exciting for my older kids since they HAD to go shopping with me EVERYTIME ALL THE TIME... with dh's work schedule it was better for us if I did the shopping while he was gone so I had to figure out how to do it with everyone in tow always.
But you're right.. it is special and exciting for my younger kids since I do NOT have to take everyone nowadays.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
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jillian
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| Posted: Jan 24 2011 at 3:34pm | IP Logged
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*Lindsey* wrote:
Thank you for your thoughts and tips. We do ignore tantrums unless they are being destructive. I think a big part of the problem is that sometimes I DO get angry about their misbehavior and feel like they are ruining my day. I know that's irrational.
I have been praying about this and asking God to show me how to best discipline them. We had some success today with immediate removal of toys, and one fairly successful time-out. Now if I can only be consistent... |
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Oh honey I know the emotions and frustrations. I feel the same way some days. Consistency is the key. I know I will occasionally give in to the urge to bribe or negotiate, and that's a failing for me because I want the obedience without making her feel she has negotiation power (especially when she doesn't understand negotiation yet lol).
One thing I also do is make sure I give her options to entertain herself (3 at the very most). For example I will say, "do you want to help me make [insert some food] or do you want to play with x, y or z" The options let her feel like she has some say in the day to day goings on. I also let her pick for clothes or a meal (breakfast and lunch she can choose for).
I also give her a warning, like some other posters--you can stop doing [insert behavior] or we can [insert consequence]. It usually involves, you can behave yourself and use an inside voice in the library or we can leave with no books (she has plenty at home and doesn't lose us reading to her but she loses getting something new).
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juststartn
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Wow. My boys are three going on four, and they are completely.different.to.discipline.
Our girls? Oh, we had our issues (vaseline...twice....with two different girls...ugghhh). But nothing like what we get with these two.
Complicating the issue for us, at least, is their rather severe speech delay/difficulties--which they are in therapy for...they will *not* sign, btdt, etc.
They are not so much hitters (although there is some of that)...there is the constant destruction...it doesn't matter. I can turn my back for 2 minutes, and that is the 2 minutes they get into dh's things.  (like when I was trying to diagnose the problems with the washer and needed the two older girls' help...hence no one to watch the monkeys).
They are throwers. John is a screamer. David is more of the hitter.
They have learned that "Do I need to get the spoon?" means "oh. Crud. We've messed it up big time now!"...
Of course, carrying a spoon in one's purse doesn't work very well. And the screaming in the car (they want to be O-U-T, not home, tyvm!--they will start screaming when we leave town to come home, calm down a wee bit, and then start screaming again when we turn down the road to the house...sigh).
And they are getting big enough--not 37 lbs yet, but getting close--that they are getting harder and harder to man handle. DH is gone (work, of course, and shifts that switch every 2 months), so it mostly falls on me...
Ugh. Glad I'm not alone in this...
Rachel
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martinas6
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I second spanking, once they know you mean business, they'll listen heed your warnings earlier. I rarely have to spank now, they just know I'm not messing around. By the way, I really don't think there is such thing as terrible two's, it's the threes that get us.
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onthelane
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We have 2 eight year olds (1 ds, 1dd) and I cannot emphasize enough the need to work on discipline when the children are younger. I wish I could get 4 yrs. back, especially w/ ds.
Consistent, immediate discipline is critical. Not always easy if you are in the middle of teaching, in a public place, etc. But here's where we are now: time out --- if it isn't immediate, the timeout is 3x as long when dh comes home. Any hitting, or other physical attacks against another person means a spanking by dh at the end of the day. If this meets w/ too much resistance, the child goes to his/her room -- which by now has been stripped of everything but the bed, so that tantrums do not involve books, clothes, etc. being thrown about (or quietly enjoyed).
The discipline has had to be ratcheted up a notch b/c we failed by not being strong enough initially. Don't let the age seem too young to be strict about this - do it now.
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herdingkittens
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guitarnan wrote:
Lindsey, consistency is key with this age. They really do want to know what to expect when they misbehave or push boundaries. You and your husband should work together so that each of you gives the same response when specific behaviors occur. (Write it down. It helps.) It does take time, but that consistency and follow-through ("If you can't stop screaming in the grocery store, we will have to leave the cart and go home," - and then do it) will make all the difference.
It may also help to give them words to use to explain how they feel. We need to teach our children the words that go with their feelings. "I see you are feeling very angry right now. That's okay. It is not okay to throw blocks at your sister because she could get hurt," and statements like that acknowledge the validity of feelings without permitting destructiveness. |
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We have a set of twin boys who turned 3 in December. They are for sure more work at this age than I remember the older ones being.
What guitarnan suggests has rung true for us as well. At this age, working on obedience is key to peace in the family, and to helping them be teachable as they grow older. I know a family who took time off of school just to work on obedience as a virtue until the children all got it down - that was the focus until things got rolling. We have done the same (reading scripture about obedience, playing games (the "yes mommy" game was a hit, where you ask them to do silly things and they respond with a "yes mommy" and action and then lots of kisses and cuddles), etc.) when we needed a tune up.
Having a response for disobedience that is the same (every time!) is helpful for me and my littles. For example, they say no to me when i ask them to do something or something that breaks a house rule - they go in a time out. They can get out of the time out when they are ready to come say sorry to me and whoever else they need to apologize to. I make sure they understand why they were there and that they are not to do that again. Then they get a smiling mother and forgiveness and we move on. btw, If they get out of the time out without being ready to say sorry, then they get a swat on the bottom and returned to the time out.
I am due with a little one in a few days, and I must say, there are days when it is physically exhausting to follow through, but when I start slacking, I can see how quickly things get crazy around here, and it is more than my thin patience can handle. So, for preventative measures, I try to stay consistant.
Also, I find that my little guys really need to be heard and understood. If the case is that they are emotionally having a difficult time and cannot calm down, taking them to a different room (changing scenery) and talking them down by affirming what they are frustrated by (i.e. "you really want to eat those crackers, don't you?") helps a lot. One of my twins is helped by rocking in the rocking chair with me while we talk.
I'll say a prayer for you tonight, and know you are not alone. Twins are a whole different thing, are they not? Ask God to lead you to a plan that works for your family, and to give you the strength to follow through - he always seems to have the best advice!
God Bless!
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Topic: I need help
