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kristacecilia
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I need some help. I love my new curriculum choices for this year and they are going over well with my boys, especially the 6 year old.
We just keep running into PARENTING issues. Mostly, that they will NOT do what I ask them to do, when I ask them to do it. We have discussed right away obedience and why it is important. We have tried rewarding good behavior. We have given consequences for bad behavior. They just don't seem to care.
I have stripped their toys down to one bucket of trains that I have full control of because every night at clean up time no one would clean up. They just flat out ignore what I ask them to do. I will stand there and ask them (or tell them) to clean up and they will just sit there playing with whatever they are doing. They will happily spend 2 or 3 hours everynight NOT cleanign theri room, have me and their dad screaming a tthem to clean up and taking away all their toys at the end of the night because they never did clean up.
The majority of their toys are kept downstairs anyway, we are only talking about a few toys they have in their room.
What am I doing wrong? The toys thing is just one example we are dealing with right now. The not listening thing is soemthing we deal with on a daily basis.
It's leaving me so constantly frustrated that I am entertaining thoughts of putting my kids on the school bus just to get a break. Not that it would actually fix the problem, but I wouldn't have to deal with them for a few hours.
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Krista
Wife to a great guy, mom to two boys ('04, '06) and three girls ('08, '10, '12!)
I blog at http://kristacecilia.wordpress.com/
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Maggie
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Been there.
My guess is that you haven't quite found their "currency." So...while you have taken away their toys, that is not their "currency"--or the thing that really matters.
Is tv time? Computer time? Sweets? Etc...are these things that matter?
Also, I would keep in mind that your children are VERY young still. They need to be gently trained how to do things...and the very best way to do this is to do it beside them. Granted, it is much easier to *tell* them to do it...but sometimes even what seems like a trivial amount of cleaning to us can seem monumental to a little guy. If you get down to eye level and say, "I'll put in one train and then you can put in one train..." OR "Let's pretend the bucket is a basketball hoop and try to score with every train we put in..." OR "Let's all pick up 5 toys and put them away--the first one done wins" OR "If you put away 5 toys properly, then you may have a jelly bean (or reward of choice)...for those who do not, you do not get a reward."
Kids at the ages of your children still don't internalize the *right away* obedience...at least, not in my house...and not in my friend's homes. 
Instead of *asking* your child to do something 3-4 times and it resulting in disobedience, you could ask *one time* and then if/when your child ignores you, go to him, take his hand, and physically do it with him so that he gets into the habit of listening to you the first time.
I think that so often parents ask things over and over and over again that children can become complacent and think that they really don't have to do things the first or second time because mom and dad will just keep asking--they didn't *really* mean it the first time. 
I would also recommend a book called "One Two Three Magic"--which really did help us with our parenting and obedience. While I do not follow it to a T, my kids certainly know that once I hit "3", there is a consequence to follow.
Here is the link for the book. Though, I have to admit...I am not a "seasoned" mom. My eldest is 5--but she is, uh, shall we say, a strong-willed child. For now, the book I mentioned and the tactics above have helped.
Hope you can find some relief...I know what you are describing...
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JennGM
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Krista,
We don't have everything running smoothly here. Don't label it as burnout yet...it's adjusting to the new schedule, which will take a while.
The Charlotte Mason approach to developing good habits would mean you would tackle one thing at a time. So look at what you think needs to be addressed first. From your post, it sounds like you need prompt and immediate obedience.
Developing the good habit takes a lot of work from you. You have accustomed them to wait until you blow. You have to change your habits to show you mean it the first time you say it. It's harder with a newborn in your arms, because you can't always act upon your words. But little things, like going to the child, place your hand on their shoulder, look in their eyes and give them directions. Or at least give the directions right in their presence, not from another room and give immediate consequences if it has to be repeated.
I know there were a few threads that addressed this with better advice than that.
The other thing I was thinking that at this age it helps the child to know what is expected of him. A little schedule or chore chart or family rules that could be posted and talked about. Graphics help for the younger child.
Just ideas off the top of my head. The hardest time for me was with a young baby and I wasn't always able to reinforce my words (like getting up and walking the child to the toys that need to be cleaned up or putting him in a time-out).
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Jennifer G. Miller
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JennGM
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Oh, I meant to mention Maryan's great ideas for chores for her boys. It's genius!
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Jennifer G. Miller
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kristacecilia
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Maggie,
I feel like I have tried every bit of currancy there is- we've done TV time, computers, toys... you name it. I even took away *gasp* before bed reading time.
I have done the 'take away' approach and the 'earning' approach with their currancy.
I don't know what other currancy there might be?
I do appreciate your post. I have been thinking a lot about what you wrote- I totally tend to assume that they are capable of doing these things, but maybe they aren't.
I also do try to do the 'do you want to do it by yourself or do you want mommy to help you?' approach. I have been slacking off lately because of the baby and because I am so sick of dealing with it. Blah.
Thanks again.
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God bless,
Krista
Wife to a great guy, mom to two boys ('04, '06) and three girls ('08, '10, '12!)
I blog at http://kristacecilia.wordpress.com/
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kristacecilia
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Jennifer,
Thanks for pointing out that I should be dealing with one thing at a time. It's so overwhelming sometimes... the disobedience, the whining, the complaining, arguing back, etc. Then I feel like the biggest failure at parenting because, in my head, they shouldn't still be disobeying at 6 and 4.
It's not like I don't mean what I say. I do follow through. They do have consequences for not listening. Ugh.
I love the chore list idea- I was thinking of trying that, actually.
Maryan did an awesome job on those lanyard chore lists, too. I would have never thought of that.
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God bless,
Krista
Wife to a great guy, mom to two boys ('04, '06) and three girls ('08, '10, '12!)
I blog at http://kristacecilia.wordpress.com/
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JennGM
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| Posted: Sept 16 2010 at 12:10pm | IP Logged
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Oh, the whining gets on the nerves, doesn't it? I always ignore whining. I tell the child, "I hear whining, I can't understand you. I need you to use your words if you want something."
Sometimes I have to repeat that, and make sure I don't respond to the whines. But it does work, at least for my boys. My little one will stop crying and whining, wipe his tears, compose himself, and speak clearly what he wants. It's rather funny, actually, to see the transformation.
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Marybeth
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I never knew how to clean or pick up growing up. Nobody ever took the time to explain and visually show me how to do my chores. I am not saying this is the case with you and your husband but maybe this would help your boys.
Also,I like how Flylady suggests you make cleaning/picking up a game. I did that a few times when my ds was younger. After watching me a few times, he started to help and really had fun cleaning. His favorite cleaning game was timing me at picking up toys! Yes,I was the one picking up,but he was laughing and cheering me on the whole time. When the timer would go off, he would help me finish the rest of the room the whole time talking about how fast I clean and how far I could throw a toy into a bin!  
I would recommend the book Kids, Parents and Power Struggles as it seems you and dh are in one with your kids. This book helped my dh quite a bit a few years ago.
There is a very informative and supportive group through yahoo groups which helps with parenting situations. It is called Hold Onto Your Catholic Kids. I only lurk there but have gotten some very valuable advice through reading the emails. Everyone is very understanding and helpful. They have certain books they recommend and people read/discuss them. Other times, people post questions looking for advice,opinions,etc.
I pray you have peaceful days ahead for your family. It is no fun being stressed and upset each evening. I know how it feels.
God bless,
Marybeth
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Kathryn
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I'm not sure I have much advice but we started back the 1st week of August and I think it's prob. just getting back to more semblance of a "schedule" and all the expectations that go into completing what needs to get done in the day. Now there is homework and chores and activities and busyness instead of what I call the lazy, daisy days of Summer so it's prob. just an adjustment. Also, I have found that my expectations are even higher as I am about to welcome a newborn so it could also be w/ your newborn, you are able to help less and need them to help more so again, more adjustments. And my oldest are 10 and 11 1/2 so you'd think it would be easier!!
Good luck...wish I had magical words to make it better.
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Erin
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kristacecilia wrote:
| Then I feel like the biggest failure at parenting because, in my head, they shouldn't still be disobeying at 6 and 4. |
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Well then I'm an even bigger failure because my children are much older. After much thought I realised it is not obedience so much but caring, I care that their toys etc are put away, but do they? I often think not. A few years back I accepted that it was going to be ongoing for years yet, I was always going to have to follow through each child with their chores, after the change in my attitude I could cope better.
So now we focus on a routine, clean up time etc, but I have to be the instigator and follow through. And it is very, very hard with a baby.  You are not a failure at all, motherhood is simply plodding along, once step at a time (and a few backwards)
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Maggie
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You know...things changed a lot around here after I instituted "chore packs"--idea taken from the Duggar Family.
I found online clipart of different things they need to do EVERY morning (as mornings were the HARDEST for us).
1 Go potty/wash hands 2. brush teeth 3. put on clothes 4 make bed 5 pick up toys...etc.
I laminated these and put them on a key ring so they can "flip" from one to the next. For whatever reason, they like this as opposed to a wall-chart that had the same images.
And we started a routine. After chore pack is "morning basket"--credit to the amazing ladies here on 4real. After morning basket is generally 5 in a Row...and then lunch.
I am on them every step of the way in their chore packs. If I leave them, things go awry. It took about 2-3 weeks to really institute...and now, they just expect it...but I'd say about 3/5 mornings a week i still get resistance...sometimes a lot...like the 45 minute tantrum from my 5yo this morning. 
Lunch then quiet time...then home schooling 5 year old...then free time/errands...then dinner.
Same thing every day. But it is predictable for them...which has really helped.
I fought the routine for a long long time. But...it has a ton of merit here.
I am sorry things are so difficult right now. Being a mommy is not easy--especially without having big-kid helpers right now! Someday...
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kristacecilia
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Thanks for letting me unload, ladies. You're right- we're just getting back into the swing of things and everyone, yours truly included, is putting up some resistance to living a more disciplined life.
I definitely need some chore packs or something they can handle visually. I just feel like we have done that before and they didn't work. We will definitely have to try them again. They are older now, afterall.
I have been reading The Original Homeschooling series and somewhere in there it talks about the mother who had her son trained to be obedient to her before his first birthday... and I got this idea in my head that they should have been doing this a long time ago. That I had been neglecting their moral training for the last 6 years. And so I felt like a failure.
Okay, thanks for the pep talk! :)
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God bless,
Krista
Wife to a great guy, mom to two boys ('04, '06) and three girls ('08, '10, '12!)
I blog at http://kristacecilia.wordpress.com/
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Grace&Chaos
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Reading attentively and picking up some ideas. My two older boys are like night and day. I get frustrated when my almost 4 yr old takes advantage of his older 5 yr old brother. They share a room and he just sits around waiting for brother to do the clean up . I found we have had to ask older brother to step out (if we see he is doing what we ask) and let the younger one finish up. This just makes him so  . Still working on habit training around here. Gets better the more consistent we are. Little brother is not taking all day to clean up, maybe just an hour now . (he is only allowed out of the room to eat a meal then has to go back while everyone else is going about their day, he really doesn't like this) I also started asking specific things to be picked up in their room say you pick up clothes and shoes and you pick up toys and books. Little brother is still the one that takes the longest, but he doesn't linger as much because he has a specific task. All this while holding the baby and a two year old tugging me and teasing brothers . Don't ask what the girls are doing in the mean time, that's another topic. Oh wait there's also school somewhere 
Right there with you Krista!  Motherhood!
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Kathryn
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Maggie wrote:
I found online clipart of different things they need to do EVERY morning (as mornings were the HARDEST for us).
1 Go potty/wash hands 2. brush teeth 3. put on clothes 4 make bed 5 pick up toys...etc.
I laminated these and put them on a key ring so they can "flip" from one to the next. For whatever reason, they like this as opposed to a wall-chart that had the same images. |
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My goodness...this is a great idea! How many times does an older child need to be told breakfast, bed, teeth, clothes. EVERY.SINGLE.DAY! I am completely going to do this ring thing b/c my DS will be alll over it as he does need the visual cues. And re the obedience...I think Erin hit the nail on the head...it's not disobedience...he simply does not care if his bed is made or his teeth brushed or his clothes put away. I've even told my DH that some day he will care...when he starts liking girls. Another I guess I'd better enjoy this stage!
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kristacecilia
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My four year old definitely DOES NOT CARE. He could care less if he gets dressed or eats breakfast in the morning. He just wants to PLAY! Actually, he sounds a lot like your almost four year old, Jenny. My whole family sounds a lot like yours (right down to holding the baby and the two year old teasing her brothers). Except I don't have the older two.
My four year old completely takes advantage of my 6 year old- they also share a room- and he will let the older brother do everything while he sits there and plays. We have had to ask older brother to leave so the younger brother gets his 'turn'.
I am still deciding if the key rings would get used or lost, or if I am better off printing a list and taping it to their bedroom wall. Comments on either?
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Krista
Wife to a great guy, mom to two boys ('04, '06) and three girls ('08, '10, '12!)
I blog at http://kristacecilia.wordpress.com/
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Ramie
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I have a Hygiene Chart and a Chore Chart that I have posted to the inside of our hall closet (which is in between the bedrooms). It is used by my 4, 7, and 9yos. I like always knowing where it is, and having only two pieces of paper for all the kids. The Hygiene chart is pretty much universal (and very specific), but I have it broken up into Morning, Noon, and Evening Tasks. This is what is on the Morning List:
Bus Breakfast plates & clean the table
Get Dressed & throw out pull-ups
Brush Teeth
Wash Face
Wash Hands
Brush Hair
Chapstick
Lotion
Do Morning Chores
The chore chart is divided into 3 columns also - one for each child (since they don't all have the same responsibilities). My non-reader has hand-drawn pictures next to her duties to help remind her what to do. My 7yo's Morning Chore list includes:
Hygiene
Bedroom Tidy (with explanation)
Laundry (details of just what tasks to do)
Breakfast Tidy (including details)
As you can see, there is some overlap between the two charts. They refer to each other. But all I have to do is say, "did you do everything on the list?" and the older ones can answer me and get it done. The 4yo needs more guidance, of course - sometimes just a reminder to look at the next thing on the list, other times I have to actually stand there with her and check her work.
Edited to add that my post makes it sound like we've got it perfect. We don't. But I think the weakness is in my lack of discipline to follow through.
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Kathryn
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I think I'm going to do rings and a master list like the one referred to JennGM's post above but again, my kids are older and I know the rings will go on a hook in each of their bedrooms. I was even thinking about putting a 3M hook on the front of each bedroom door or I have a kitchen cabinet wall I could use and put those daily chores on there b/c esp. my DS has been known to walk around w/ a piece of paper in his hand (when I write it) and check-off breakfast, teeth, bed, clothes. So I think the rings will help as he moves about the house but I also think a master list will be needed to help me w/ follow through. !?! I'm about 2 wks days away from delivery so we'll see if I get this implemented before then!
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Becky Parker
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I like the ring idea too! We have used chore packs from Managers of Their Chores, but eventually the cards or the packs themselves got misplaced. I think the rings would be easier to manage.
Something we tried a couple of years ago when the situation was getting grave is to post the Bible verse: "He who does not work does not eat". (I don't think those are the exact words but it's close.) We explained to the kids that their jobs and school work are there work and a certain list of things had to be accomplished before meals and scheduled snacks.
Please don't think I would ever allow my children to starve! NOne of them even missed a meal. But if they didn't do their chores or didn't do their school work just because they were being disobedient, that meal or snack waited for them until they were done. I think it took once or twice so they knew I was serious and then it stopped being a problem.
I also didn't expect complete compliance from my son who had just turned 5. I often worked beside him. If his chore was to dust the living room, I was in there with him, vacuuming or something. Just my presence really helped. If I wasn't there he would get distracted or something and completely lose sight of the chore he was supposed to accomplish.
One final thought is that workboxes have also helped here. I think, for my son who is 9, it is the physical act of moving a little card that is velcroed to show he had completed a task that keeps him on target.
And, for disobedience, I always go back to physical labor, especially for boys. If there is something that they can do but it's not fun (like the dreaded chore here is cleaning up the yard after the dog) it makes a great consequence for disobedience or disrespect.
Since I have a short list of these jobs on hand, it allows me to be consistant when I am flustered by their behavior and just want to yell, which accomplishes very little!
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Becky Parker
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kristacecilia wrote:
I have stripped their toys down to one bucket of trains that I have full control of because every night at clean up time no one would clean up. They just flat out ignore what I ask them to do. I will stand there and ask them (or tell them) to clean up and they will just sit there playing with whatever they are doing. They will happily spend 2 or 3 hours everynight NOT cleanign theri room, have me and their dad screaming a tthem to clean up and taking away all their toys at the end of the night because they never did clean up.
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I just re-read your post and I wonder if having them clean up their room a little earlier would help? If this were my boys, who also share a room, I can't help but think they might have the underlying reason to disobey because it allows them to stay up longer. We have a bed time snack that can't be eaten until their evening responsibilities are taken care of. If bedtime snacks are not part of the norm, you could even use breakfast.
You could just say, at the given time, "okay, lights out (or whatever you say), when this room is clean in the morning you may have breakfast" (or something like that). Try not to let it bother you, just be very "matter of fact". Then, make sure there is something really good for breakfast that day!
AFter taking away toys, computer time, family night movies, etc. we finally realized that around here, the two best consequences are food and chores!
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kristacecilia
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So.... an update.
I narrowed down the chores I wanted the boys to do to a few specific things and sat down and explained it to them. I did pair it up before meals- we were pretty much doing that anyway- and I sm still planning to make some chore charts. I decided that on the wall charts will probably work better for now because the ringed charts would get lost around my house.
Things seem to be going so much better. I am just trying to be patient and consistent. I have relaxed our routine a little, as well, to help mommy chill out a bit.
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God bless,
Krista
Wife to a great guy, mom to two boys ('04, '06) and three girls ('08, '10, '12!)
I blog at http://kristacecilia.wordpress.com/
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Week 2: Burn out already?
