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Angel
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| Posted: June 05 2010 at 12:20pm | IP Logged
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I must confess that I am writing this in desperation.
I have a 4.5 yo who just does not care whether he ever uses the potty or not. He does not care about candy or bribes of presents. He does not care if he is wearing pants or not. He does not care if he goes in his underwear, and will actively (and I mean, by making an ACTUAL STATED CHOICE) choose to go in his underwear rather than to go into the bathroom and go.
My mil, who will be coming to help after the baby is born, is fixated on the twins being potty-trained by the time she gets here. But they -- and especially one of them -- are not getting with her schedule. And one of them (the other one, who does seem to care a little) now has a tummy virus which is putting a further kink in things.
So... How does one potty train a child who does not care?
Anybody else have this problem? I'm running out of ideas. 
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Angela
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JodieLyn
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clean up could be rather uncomfortable.. like cold water.. plus having to at least rinse out any clothes he gets dirty and cleaning the floor etc.
But most of my boys get to about that age.. and I give 'em to dad.. there's something about being a big boy with dad that is way more motivating that ANYTHING I could come up with.
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JodieLyn
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oh yeah.. and if YOU are owning it as a problem.. he may let you (so like I mentioned above.. give over all the clean up to him with supervision of course).. or if could be a reaction to your attempting to control the situation.. in the long run.. the one in control here is the child.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
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dakotamidnight
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We're in the same boat, with a nearly 4yo girl.
No ideas either sorry.
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Mackfam
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Ok...so I'm assuming you've ruled out anything medical. If that is the case - here's what I'd do:
MANDATORY PRIORITY POTTY TIME. EVERY 15 MINUTES. PERIOD.
This means that you have to get through the virus, get the pantry stocked, and clear your schedule. You'll need to block out about a week. You do NOTHING but potty time.
You have to be matter of fact - not syrupy sweet, not agitated and upset - just matter of fact.
"We're going to use the potty from now on. If you use your underpants instead of the potty, you'll have to clean it up."
You'll need a timer, a sink ready to rinse underwear, lots of soap for washing hands, and patience. Bucket-loads of patience. 
** Set the timer - every 15 minutes is non-negotiable until you sense that they are starting to recognize the urge to go to the potty. If a fit is thrown, just help them be obedient and walk them to the bathroom if needed. If needed, pick them up and put them on the potty. Help them stay on the potty if needed. I hope this doesn't sound too harsh. The key is not to be agitated. You're matter of fact and calm - "you're a big boy now and I know you can use the big potty. I'm going to help you remember when to go until you can tell me."
** Any accidents are cleaned up by the child. Nothing over the top here, but if a child messes in their pants and then tells me, they get to flush it and scrub the undies in soapy water. The consequence has to be there and it needs to be uncomfortable. All the while your voice is calm and matter of fact. "There is a mess to be cleaned up. Here are your tools. I'll supervise."
** One other boy training issue - I keep a bucket of baby wipes in the bathroom. If my young men don't aim accurately, they are responsible for wiping down walls and floors with the baby wipes. Once they have wiped bathroom walls a few times with my supervision to ensure thoroughness, the aim improves dramatically! This is a courtesy issue that I'm a stickler about!
A little boy is different to potty train than a little girl. One of my boys preferred learning in the upright position with dad, while the other was stubborn and didn't want to potty train. The sitting down position was easier for me to enforce and since the key was to be consistent, dispassionate and firm - I needed to be able to enforce the most sanitary...um...downward pointing position possible. Once we broke through the "I don't want to do this" barrier, he went to standing and learning with daddy.
You can do this, Angela! You're just going to have to be ready to give consistent attention to this for a few days. It doesn't usually take me more than 3 or 4 days, but it would be good to have a week at home. You have to give your FULL AND UNDIVIDED attention to this for it to work though.
I'm praying for you! Golly...this is NOT one of my favorite mothering milestones to get through, but it would be great to have them pottytrained before this baby comes, wouldn't it! Good luck!
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Angel
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| Posted: June 05 2010 at 1:27pm | IP Logged
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Ok, I have to admit, I am a little squeamish about handing over the cleaning up part so I haven't tried that yet.
You'd think I'd never done this before, wouldn't you, instead of having already gotten 3 kids (including 2 very stubborn and unwilling boys!) successfully into underwear?
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Angela
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CrunchyMom
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Angel, I have a very similar problem with my just turned 4 year old.
With him though, it is mostly pooping because he swears it just takes too much time to go to the potty.   
I don't have good advice. Some days I think we've licked it, and then others I'm sure he'll NEVER stop pooping his pants. Just commiserating 
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Paula in MN
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Jen, I love your mandatory 15 minutes idea. What do you do during the night? I'm asking because we are again having issues with ds8. We all know it is stress related, but he is now having many accidents during the day. I want to try this idea with him, to reinforce to him that even if he is under stress, he can control his bladder. Sorry to hijack!
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SuzanneG
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We do almost exactly as Jen described above.
Adding a couple things:
** roll up all rugs or put plastic down in the rooms where the child is "training"....they aren't allowed in parts of the house that are not "proofed." Tell yourself ahead of time, that there WILL be accidents, but it doesn't matter and you will NOT get mad!  Bring out stacks of rags/towels, so they are easily accessible. Set out 10 sets of clothing.
** Prep the older kids....asking extra help with meal prep, daily maintenance, etc. Warn them that most of your attention is going to be on trainee.
**Go grocery shopping, have a general plan of simple meals.....you'll have no time for cooking during all of this. Forget all projects, and catching up. We always eat frozen meals, or if dh is in town he brings food home. Last time, I asked my neighbor to stop at one of my favorite restaurants to bring home my favorite salad for me at about 2 pm the first day. The first day always seems hopeless! I don't cook, clean (except for the obvious poop and pee clean up) and plan absolutely nothing except POTTY TRAINING! No phone calls or any mom-work, except hanging out with the kids, and encouraging the trainee. It's a LOT of work, esp that first day! 100% potty training focus!
**Find someone to call you every 4 hours to remind you how well this works! If my dh is in meetings, my neighbor does it! YOU NEED A CHEERLEADER, b/c this is really in-the-trenches!
**We do this when the kids are younger, so for a 4 yo, I'm not sure it's necessary....but I'm mentioning it anyway. The trainee wears no underwear, but TIGHT LEGGINGS. For girls, this is easy; we have millions of little 2yo leggings. With boys, maybe long underwear or tight-fitting pajama bottoms. They must hug the leg and under the crotch. Whenever they don't pee in the toilet, then you want them to feel the warm, wet sensation and "learn" WHAT that is. Eventually they associate the urge to urinate with the warm sensation on their legs. If they were n-k-d they wouldn't feel it as drastically. i think it helps the process go faster and they learn quicker. However, like I said.....prop not nec for the 4 yo.....they already know "the deal."
** 4 days ahead of time, start saying, "In 4 days, you're not going to wear a diaper anymore! etc." Talk about it constantly. Do a countdown with something on a wall, etc.
**Clear calendar for the next 5 days AT LEAST. You are in LOCK DOWN MODE! If you have to leave the house with the child at any time and resort to a diaper, it definitely spoils the plan. Cancel errands, appts, school, etc. If have to go to church, tag-team-it. Do not leave the house under any circumstances until this is complete. We have never been on lock-down for more than 4 days!
**Then, essentially, we do what Jen described above. The timer gets set for 15-20 minutes and they sit. Or not. Proceed with THEM CLEANING UP if they wet or soil pants or the floor. The first time you can "help" them...by moving their hands to show how it's done, but after that.....you just stand there and let them clean it up themselves. Detached, firm, unemotional. Then plop them in the bathtub to rinse them off (with non-warm water) and move on. Set the timer. Start all over.
**This is only for the 2-3 yo (I wouldn't do this for the older ones).....Shop for 2 types of "treats".......1-big-treat. 1-smaller-treat. Ours are always: Big- 2 Peanut M&Ms Small - 1 marshmallow. For the little ones, I think a potty chair is better for this, as on the big toilet, you can't actually SEE if they really went. Set timer for 5 minutes.
------If they stay on the chair for 5 minutes, they get a "small treat".
------If they actually GO in the potty chair, they get a BIG treat.
------If they don't stay on for 5 minutes, they don't get anything.
**Like I said, the first day is miserable. You'll go through lots of pants, lots of rags, lots of messes. You'll lose hope. But, persevere through that 2nd day!!!!!!!! This really does work! There is really no other option.
**I have had a couple moms ask me, "But what if my son LIKES to play in his poop and plays instead of cleans up?" I don't have an answer to that.  We'd have to do some more brainstorming on that one,  as I'm SURE there is a solution.  And, it's never happened, btw. Don't you think even 4 yo boys are repulsed by human feces? or don't I know boys AT ALL?????
You'll do GREAT with this Angela! It's totally do-able!!!!!!!!
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MamaFence
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I have been through this with my nearly 4yr old daughter for the last year. It was constipation-related with her, and we are treating it (Miralax)...but there has also been a lot of behavior with it.
I've skimmed replies...and they all seem very good. I have told my daughter during the worst phases of this with her that if she's going to refuse to use the bathroom like a big girl, then she also cannot play with her dolls or watch movies with her older sister. I told her those were big girl things, and she could basically "earn" that again by using the bathroom. Oh, we have had some ugly battles...but we're finally turning the corner, I think!
Praying for you in this...potty training struggles are just awful.
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Amazing_Grace
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Why oh, why was it so hard to toilet train my son? This question nagged at me for YEARS. Yes, you read that right, YEARS! I never thought I was going to get that kid toilet trained in my life time. Back when MONK (he was later dx with Asperger Syndrome) was little, diapers only got so big and when he was 4, large diapers that fit him were scarce. I was tired of buying diapers and I was so embarrassed that he wasn’t toilet trained yet. Day Cares would not take him because he was not toilet trained and Kindergarten was fast approaching. Relatives thought I was a terrible mother and all I could say in response was “If you think it’s so easy to toilet train him, you do it!” That fell on deaf ears and they continued to chastise me endlessly about the matter never taking into account that we were trying, but nothing worked. Meanwhile, I felt like a failure and a complete idiot because I used to teach the blind and multihandicapped and I toilet trained them with no problem. My son however was another story.
Out of sheer desperation and lacking in total self control, I put MONK in a pair of shorts one summer day when he was 4 and told him if he wets his pants he will have to clean it up all by himself. I then showed him step-by-step what that meant- he will have to clean himself up, change his shorts and underwear, and put his dirty clothes in the washer. For some reason this strategy worked and in 2 days MONK was toilet trained. LOL!
For those moms who are still pulling their hair out because they cannot toilet train their child, don’t worry. You will find what works for your son/daughter soon so don't fret.
Good luck! These kids are tricky so just take one day at a time and pray for guidance and understanding. :)
Amazing Grace
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CrunchyMom
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Suzanne, I'm SO thinking I'll use that system with my youngest when he gets to that stage. When do you usually start?
I don't see it working with a four year old, though. My four years old COMPLETELY knows when he needs to go to the potty. He rarely wets himself--and when he does its because he waited too long to go.
He just doesn't want to take the time to walk upstairs and sit for any amount of time on the potty. He's LAZY. Its how he is about everything else (like putting away toys and such), its just that the other things aren't associated with poop. His favorite phrase is, "But it will take too long!"
Some day I will figure out what motivates this child. SOME DAY! But, until then...
I WISH I knew the answer to this, Angel!
Not to contradict the experienced moms here, but do you really think at this point it is about not recognizing the urge to go??? Some days we have NO ACCIDENTS. Others, he just doesn't care. It really seems more about motivation, ime, than training when they are just being stubborn, or am I missing something?
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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SuzanneG
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CrunchyMom wrote:
| Suzanne, I'm SO thinking I'll use that system with my youngest when he gets to that stage. When do you usually start? |
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Between 2 - 2.5. If they can SAY "Potty train" then they can do it!
Lindsay wrote:
I don't see it working with a four year old, though. My four years old COMPLETELY knows when he needs to go to the potty. He rarely wets himself--and when he does its because he waited too long to go.
He just doesn't want to take the time to walk upstairs and sit for any amount of time on the potty. He's LAZY. Its how he is about everything else (like putting away toys and such), its just that the other things aren't associated with poop. His favorite phrase is, "But it will take too long!" |
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So, you don't think he'll be motivated by cleaning up his own mess? I would start there. Just insist that he clean up his own mess.
::As soon as he goes in his pants, just quickly pick him up and plop him in the bathtub. The first time, walk him through the steps...."First take off your pants.....get a piece of toilet paper to pick up the poop....throw the poop in the toilet....rinse out your underwear.....put them in a plastic bag. After the first time, go through the whole-nice-firm-verbiage and just stand and supervise.
::Put your other boys in a contained area where they are safe for 15 minutes or so, so you don't have to leave.
::If he balks or whines or complains, just empathize and re-iterate that when people make messes they need to clean them up! Just like when mommy makes a mess in the kitchen, she needs to clean it up! Or just like when you spill your cheerios, you need to clean them up! That's all! "In this house, we clean up the messes we make!"
This could take awhile, but that's ok. You've got about 14 more years!
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Suzanne in ID
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SuzanneG
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This conversation is good timing for me too, as my husband and I just "got it on the calendar".....we will be going into "Potty Training Lock-Down" July 5-9!!!!! My husband *should* be in town, my neighbor is in town, no activities, no low-tides, no visitors, and we'll be stocked up with food from the 4th of July! It's written in BIG YELLOW LETTERS on the calendar!!!!!!
We gave the older girls pre-potty-training-prep-instructions....they are to use the words "potty train" as often as possible, show her all their new panties, and invite the little trainee in to the bathroom with them as much as they can! Whew! I'm so glad I don't have to do all THAT anymore!
And, just to clarify about the clean-up-thing. After the trainee has taken clothes off and somewhat cleaned up, I DO use the sprayer on their bottom (cold water) and then wipe them clean. Just like I help a younger child wipe their bum until the age of whatever. But the initial clean up is for them.
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Suzanne in ID
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SuzanneG
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CrunchyMom wrote:
| Not to contradict the experienced moms here, but do you really think at this point it is about not recognizing the urge to go??? Some days we have NO ACCIDENTS. Others, he just doesn't care. It really seems more about motivation, ime, than training when they are just being stubborn, or am I missing something? |
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No, IMHO, you are correct, Lindsay. Keep in mind that what Jen and I do is for the younger kids...toddlers!....ages 2 - 2.5. Here you are simply training them to recognize the urge to go and then DO something about it. Which is where the tight leggings come into play.....it helps them (and me) recognize it faster, what happens, and then TRAINS them WHAT to do. They are young! There is no power struggle....it's simply TRAINING, like with anything else. "When we feel the urge...this is what we do!"
When they are older....3+....they don't need the "urge" training. They do need to be trained, however, about what the consequences are for NOT going in the toilet. Which is where the clean up comes into play. Natural consequences that won't kill ya!
Also, setting the timer for an older child is no longer about "training to feel the urge" but about them making a CHOICE. Do they want to sit on the toilet all day long? Or do they want to take a few minutes to make it to the bathroom and poop where they are supposed to? It's simply their choice.
What 4 yo wants to be sitting on the toilet all. day. long (with mom setting the timer every 20 minutes)? But, that's the natural consequence of not doing it yourself......someone needs to remind you and that someone is me....and I'm so-so-happy to do so!
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Suzanne in ID
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We have a friend who was a pediatrician with the Indian Health Service in Alaska. He told us that toddlers go *bottomless* in the igloos and eventually
decide to use the potty because they really don't enjoy the feel of stuff running down their legs. I've never tried that method, because *I* don't like the *feel* of cleaning the floors and furniture.
Quite honestly, I left my ds in diapers until he was almost 4 because he just didn't care about it. But then there started to be a certain amount of social pressure - none of his peers wore diapers, and he was certainly old enough that it was not a physical issue. He knew when he needed to *go* and would sometimes ask to be taken to the bathroom (like in church, when he was getting bored). He knew *the drill*. After I stopped talking to him about it all, he announced one morning, "I don't wear diapers anymore." Fine. No accidents because he was old enough to take care of things. Maybe I just have stubborn children, but I've had a couple of others (girls) who at 2.5 or 3 became quickly potty trained very soon after I stopped talking about it.
So, I don't have an actual plan, although the plans Jen and Suzanne suggested certainly sound like they would work. Just offering my 2 cents on a different approach. 
Peace,
Nancy
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SuzanneG
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Paula in MN wrote:
| Jen, I love your mandatory 15 minutes idea. What do you do during the night? |
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Night time training is completely a different thing. I do not "train" at night at all, unless the child asks for help, and wants to be awakened before we go to bed to help them, etc. There are different strategies for this, but to me, night training is a different ball of wax. The earliest any of my girls have trained at night is 4yo.
Paula wrote:
| I'm asking because we are again having issues with ds8. We all know it is stress related, but he is now having many accidents during the day. I want to try this idea with him, to reinforce to him that even if he is under stress, he can control his bladder. |
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I think you could do the timer-thing with him, but with much more of an attached-loving-gentleness than with the little ones. Not that you're being MEAN with the little ones....but with them you're being "detached, firm, and matter-of-fact!"
With him, b/c it IS stress-related, you could ask him if he wants help remembering and controlling this particular sphincter muscles (which could be a nice rabbit trail, btw )...and give him a couple options....the timer could be one. Perhaps not as often. See if he WANTS the reminders. And making sure you explain ahead of time that the reminders are not meant to make fun of him, but to HELP him. As soon as he starts "not being on board with it"....I'd stop. That's the last thing you want to do, is add to his stress level. Just my initial thoughts. I know there are lots of factors to consider with this, Paula.
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Suzanne in ID
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Angel
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Well, I'm having one of those days where one kid is throwing up, another is happily bringing an enormous amount of mud into the house, and a third is peeing on the floor and cheerfully cleaning himself up. On the other hand... at least I don't have to do it, and he's actually also putting his own clothes on without me having to stand over him and give him specific directions. Silver lining?
As far as motive, here are a few conversations with this child (to give you some idea):
Me: "You went stinky in your underwear so no candy bar."
Child: "Well... I didn't want a candy bar today."
Me: "If you go in your underwear, you'll have to clean it up yourself."
Him: "Well... I could use wipes."
Like Lindsay's son, mine is all about not wanting to take the time. My usual method is to just strip them at some point -- to have them go bottomless. Just the threat of this worked with one of my children (the same one who told me, "I tried going potty once. I don't want to do it again.") But my twins are not sensory-defensive like my older kids. They're sensory-seekers. So this particular child does not really care how icky he feels if it interferes with what he is doing at the time.
I'm coming to the conclusion that there are only so many variables I can control in my life and that this is probably not one of them. My C-section is scheduled for next week and this stomach virus-thing has been making its way through our ranks for over a week. I told my mom on the phone yesterday that at least no one had thrown up yet, so of course this morning the other one of the twins woke up puking. I haven't gotten it yet and this is making me nervous. The house is a wreck and the amount of bodily fluids on the floor is something I would only mention to other mothers of many. 
Ok, going to take a break and read a book. Sigh.
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Mackfam
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SuzanneG wrote:
CrunchyMom wrote:
| Not to contradict the experienced moms here, but do you really think at this point it is about not recognizing the urge to go??? Some days we have NO ACCIDENTS. Others, he just doesn't care. It really seems more about motivation, ime, than training when they are just being stubborn, or am I missing something? |
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No, IMHO, you are correct, Lindsay. Keep in mind that what Jen and I do is for the younger kids...toddlers!....ages 2 - 2.5. Here you are simply training them to recognize the urge to go and then DO something about it. |
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I completely agree!
At 2 -2.5...it's about training them to be aware and what to do.
At 3+...they're aware...now it's about training them to make the choice.
SuzanneG wrote:
| What 4 yo wants to be sitting on the toilet all. day. long (with mom setting the timer every 20 minutes)? But, that's the natural consequence of not doing it yourself......someone needs to remind you and that someone is me....and I'm so-so-happy to do so! |
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So the same principle can apply - POTTY LOCKDOWN!! But, your focus for an older child that is stubbornly digging in to diapers (in more ways than one) is simply that your job is to help them make the choice to go on the potty. Since they aren't choosing it, you'll help. Again, dispassionate, non-flustered responses (BELIEVE ME....I know how utterly and overwhelmingly HARD this is!!!!!!!!!!!)
And, natural consequences!!! That part is so important! It has to be MORE pleasant to sit on the potty, hear the splash, flush and move on...than it is to strip down, rinse off, dump the poopy, scrub the panties, clean the floor, and put on clean panties after an accident.
I'll add one more thing - it's not a punishment to clean up...it's a consequence. I don't punish for an accident, but the natural consequence of making the mess is cleaning it up. And the cleaning up is less pleasant and takes more time than just...going to the potty.
This is habit training, pure and simple. Not easy though.
Here...because I'm all about inspiring quotes...
Charlotte Mason (emphasis mine) wrote:
| "The mother who takes pains to endow her children with good habits secures for herself smooth and easy days." |
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Here's to potty lockdown days, ladies!! I'm going in to potty lockdown next week so I can secure some smoother and easier days before we pick up with our new school year!
Edited to say...cross posting with you, Angela.
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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SuzanneG
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Joined: June 17 2006
Location: Idaho
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| Posted: June 07 2010 at 2:58pm | IP Logged
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Angel wrote:
| So... How does one potty train a child who does not care? |
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And, I really do think that no child actually CARES about potty training! Just like they don't care about sharing with others, learning manners at the table, or picking up their toys! That's why they are called children!
It's probably a very unusual child who says, "Oh, Mommy! Pulllleez can I learn how to go potty in the toilet like everyone else?" 
__________________
Suzanne in ID
Wife to Pete
Mom of 7 (Girls - 14, 12, 11, 9, 7 and Boys - 4, 1)
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: potty training a child who doesn't care
