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teachingmyown
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| Posted: Aug 07 2009 at 10:21am | IP Logged
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I had a thought in the middle of the night, as I nursed my toddler to sleep for the nth time and my three year old seemed to having trouble falling asleep. We have had lots of threads here on 4Real about older babies and toddlers who won't sleep at night, and their tired moms and dads.
My thought was if *perhaps* we may be doing our children a disservice if we continue to nurse them to sleep as they get older. No tomatoes, please!  I am a very big AP advocate. I am not suggesting not nursing them, or weaning them early. I am just seeing that my kids have trouble settling down at night, even the older ones. For the first two years of their lives, they were nursed to go to sleep and then whenever they stirred at night. My longest nursers are my worst sleepers.
What do you think? Is there a point where we should gently train them to fall asleep on their own, while they still nurse at other times? Is it just my kids, or do any of you have kids who once weaned seemed to have difficulty both getting to sleep and staying asleep?
Looking forward to your comments! 
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Molly
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: Aug 07 2009 at 10:38am | IP Logged
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Hmmm...I thought this one through for the first time looking at your angle Molly. Only two of my children have been weaned at night as toddlers in a deliberate way. They were 20 months and 23 months. The first was Michael when I was about to start chemo. The second was Karoline when I hemorrhaged the first time when pregnant with Sarah. Those are the only two of my kids who are still terrible sleepers. Michael doesn't sleep well to this day (he's almost 21) and Karoline is a terrible, terrible sleep-through-the-night-NOT-er  .
Only anecdotal..
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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LLMom
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As noted in an earlier post I came to realize that night nursing was too difficult on all of us. Once we night weaned, they slept so much better.
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teachingmyown
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For me, it's not so much the night nursing. It is the restlessness both of the nurser, and then of the older, weaned child.
This week with my two youngest has really brought to light that my three year old cannot fall asleep easily. Usually, her oldest sister is stuck with her chattering for hours. This week, we got her!  I will read to her, lie down with her and she just keeps squirming and talking until she FINALLY passes out. Then she tosses and turns. I have a couple others who are just like this.
I am not suggesting total or abrupt weaning, which I guess is what your two went through, Elizabeth. I would guess that could cause another whole set of sleep associations. I am thinking of encouraging them to relax and lie down with a book, or a story on CD, maybe a lovey, after they nurse so that they learn how to relax.
I don't know. It could be something entirely different.
I am literally running out the door, so I hope this makes sense! 
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Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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organiclilac
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Could it just be that some children are better sleepers than others naturally, and those that aren't need to nurse at night longer than those who are? It makes sense to me that there would be a correlation, just not necessarily cause and effect.
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: Aug 07 2009 at 11:54am | IP Logged
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teachingmyown wrote:
| I am not suggesting total or abrupt weaning, which I guess is what your two went through, Elizabeth. I would guess that could cause another whole set of sleep associations. I am thinking of encouraging them to relax and lie down with a book, or a story on CD, maybe a lovey, after they nurse so that they learn how to relax. |
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That's true. Both my poor sleepers were weaned completely and rather abruptly under duress, followed by months of crisis. Now, I'm thinking they're scarred for life  .
I also know that there was no choice in either case. Life.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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JodieLyn
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I tend to stop nursing to sleep by about a year.. except in the middle of the night (usually because we both fall back to sleep
But I'd just nurse them before bed but they'd actually go to sleep while being held and rocked by myself or dh.
Matter of fact right now my 1 yr old is not going down for night by nursing (so maybe it's the kids and not something I make them do ) so I nurse him.. but then I hold him or better yet.. someone else does.. last night my oldest boy held him and he was asleep in under 5 minutes where with me he wouldn't settle down nursing or not.
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mathmama
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My longest nurser is by far the better sleeper. I found that by letting them wean on their own the transition to not nursing to sleep was gentle and not the nightmare I thought it would be.
Beth
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mary theresa
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teachingmyown wrote:
| What do you think? Is there a point where we should gently train them to fall asleep on their own, while they still nurse at other times? |
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(I haven't been a mommy as long as any of you so I hope you don't mind my commenting. )
The above is kind of what I do.
(By the way, I breastfeed on demand, though I don't co-sleep past five months or so and my girls have both automatically weaned as my milk dried up in the next pregnancy.)
But I don't nurse them to sleep. When they are tiny of course I do -- you can't stop it even if you wanted to! But eventually as they get to 2-3 mos or so, if it is bedtime or naptime I take them off me when they stop actually drinking and are just sleepy-ish and lay them down still kind of awake, (or if I am laying with them, I close my bra or whatever).
The way I see it, babies are born knowing how to fall asleep on their own -- it's just a skill that I want them not to forget how to do. It's not really "training," it's just being aware of making sure they get to fall asleep on their own the majority of the time, or at least often enough to keep in practice, you know?
For what it is worth they are both good sleepers now (they are 3 yrs and 19 mos) and both slept through the night by 13-14 mos.
I hope that is helpful.
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mom2mpr
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Here's my story:
Ds, never slept. Even as a baby, for the first year, only 45 minutes at a pop. Even at night. I was exhausted. Only about 6 or 7 YEARS did he sleep through the night. And people told me to nap when the baby slept. Ha, by the time I got to sleep. He was up again!! He nursed until he was 18 months. And naturally progressed to only nursing to sleep for his (30 minute nap) at that age. At night he just crawled in our bed and konked out. No nursing for night time. He pretty much called the shots and we followed his lead. He still isn't a great sleeper but he reads a lot at night.
Dd, great sleeper. Gave me 6 hours straight at night at 1 month. I nursed her to sleep at night until she was over 4! She nursed about 5-10 minutes and was out all night. When I weaned her from this night nursing at 4, and it was hard, she started waking at night and now wakes and crawls in our bed about 4-5 am. Argh. Why did I wean?
As usual, two different kids, two different stories.
I am interested in the theory though. It might have some merit. Dd WAS a great sleeper and now is not. But she was 4!!!
Anne
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StephanieA
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I can't say that there is a necessarily a correlation between poor sleepers and night nursers here. First son wakes up at the click of pen, while #2 sleeps through a train chugging through the house. Both were night nursed.
Dominic (#8 and 2.5 years) is in an adjustment period right now. He co-sleeps with me. He gets aggravated at me because I can't nurse the marathon nursing sessions we had several months ago (I'm pregnant). So after a bit, he leaves my bed for his sister's domain (14 years old). She usually rocks him to sleep. He won't let me rock him to sleep.....makes him want to nurse.
He has a tough time going off to sleep, but I think he is just an active little kid who doesn't need that much sleep. He has also totally given up naps.
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Stephanie
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jdostalik
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I nurse all mine into toddlerhood and have always nursed them to sleep...all my kids have adjusted to falling to sleep on their own differently. I haven't found any correlation, Molly, in my own house. I have good sleepers and a few who wake up now and then...right now, my 2.5 year old is nursing like mad at night...My 4 year old sleeps great and I keep finding my 9 year old on the sofa in the morning...It's a crazy family we have here...
FWIW, I think your idea to try and get them to fall asleep sounds reasonable!  
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Michaela
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My first three children were nursed until they turned two. Teresa is my longest at just over 2 yrs 7 mths. We are in the process of weaning now , it's only been a couple of days, but as a result she is sleeping through the night 10-12 hrs. Last night, she did wake up for me to take her to the bathroom, and when her head hit the pillow she was out.
In my family, sleep problems rear their ugly head when the transition from family bed (no sidecar) to their own bed/room takes place. My oldest was in our bed the longest and CANNOT sleep alone....even though he shares a room with his brother. He crawls into brother's bed every night. My dd rarely sleeps in her bed through the night. She's a great sleeper, but if she wakes to use the bathroom...she'll head to our room. Only my Nathan sleeps like a log and could careless about having someone share his bed. Teresa hasn't moved out of our room, yet. .....I shall soon see if it's the family bed for us rather than nursing.
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kbfsc
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I like mary theresa's program: help little ones learn how to fall asleep on their own. Nurse on demand and generously, fill those little bellies with good mama milk - but then let them drift off on their own. I think that's the trick.
I'm expecting number 4 any day, and with each baby I pray for a better sleep situation. I don't mind co-sleeping and nursing on demand (in fact I love it), but by the time they're over a year old and still nursing a bunch at night, I'm just exhausted and needing a better solution. (Add to this my husband's frustration because he is a light sleeper and usually ends up on the couch because of the baby's wakefulness.) But at that point, of course, the babies are well accustomed to our system and they aren't interested in anything else!
I did have more success with number three, who I night-weaned at a friend's suggestion (a revolutionary idea for me) when he was about two. After that he slept pretty much through the night. We kept nursing during the day whenever he asked. Now, almost a year later, he is a very early riser, but he generally sleeps straight through.
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Lisa in WI
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Hmmm, I deliberately night-weaned my oldest two dc at about 14 months, due to a pregnancy and poor sleeping habits respectively. Both of them needed help going to sleep for a while, but we were able to teach them to fall asleep on their own. They are both good sleepers now. Youngest dd is still nursing night and day. Sometimes she sleeps through the night and sometimes she doesn't. On the nights that she doesn't sleep as well it seems like she might be having a physical discomfort. In the long run nursing seems to produce good sleepers here, but not until they are 2 or 3 years old. I'm not sure what they would have been like if they had not been nursed to sleep. I'm a very poor sleeper and my oldest two dc sleep much, much better than me.
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teachingmyown
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Okay, so it's just my kids. Really, I love throwing out questions like this because I get to wondering if there is something I could be doing differently. The impression I get here is that each child is different and there isn't a direct correlation between night nursing and sleeping for many children.
My youngest, 19 months, does in fact fall asleep for nap and bedtime with his daddy or older brother. But when he wakes at all in the night he reaches for me to nurse. I guess I need to do some more evaluating to see why the older, weaned kids still have trouble relaxing enough to sleep and stay asleep.
Oh, and Elizabeth, I think we moms can find enough things to feel guilty about without worrying about the things in life that are out of our control.
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Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Nursing older babes/toddlers to sleep
